Looking Forward To The Chinese

[Questing Beast]

My nephew is soon to marry a Chinese girl, I forget where from in China, but not Hong Kong. Their marriage follows a lengthy courtship and engagement. My son-in-law's mother is full Chinese from Hong Kong. Thus our new grandson is one quarter Chinese.

For many years, the Chinese have lived under a totalitarian regime. This followed many generations of literal anarchy during the European colonial/imperialism epoch of the 19th century, effectively ending the "last dynasty" of emperors of China. It has never mystified me why the Chinese agree to labor under Communism. It has been better than the anarchy before that. The Chinese are, arguably, the most tradition-bound culture on earth. They've been keeping written histories longer than anybody else. Their family traditions are strong and enduring. And it seems to me that once politico-economic interests of the USA and China are bound "hip and thigh" (as I am quite confident they will be in the near future), that the LDS faith will take off and "sell like hotcakes". Then we will all see something!

US Chinese president. US Mormon Chinese president, not to mention president of the LDS Church.

What the USA could use right now, and even more as time is wasting, is a strong shot in the arm of strong traditional family values and societal expectations. Propriety. These the Chinese have in spades. What the Chinese need is more individual liberty. A "marriage" of the two would be beneficial, and, interesting. Religion-wise not the least.

I predict that the Chinese people will not be bothered in the least by "the issues" that many of us bring up on fora like this one, and in symposiums or critical publications, etc. To the Chinese, the presented view or story is the correct one, because it is the official one. All lookalikes are discredited as less genuine and can be ignored. The Chinese are totally accustomed to being told the "party line", and doing their best to comply with it. Why do otherwise? That benefits no one. So the "faith promoting" story of the LDS religion is the one that Chinese converts will want to know, the only one they will care about, and anything controversial is to be ignored as trivial and even unhelpful. In many ways this is very sensible policy. It certainly makes "the hive" function well with everyone happily content with their part, and, ideally, well taken care of by the abundance that the State provides through common cause and effort, etc.

LDS values and Chinese values are almost identical. You can read this last line and skip the rest if you are pressed for time. ...

Edited July 16, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Ahab]

Sounds good to me. Any help we can get to uphold what to us were once "traditional" family values is and will be a good thing.

[Questing Beast]

Are we prepared to fit in with the dominant paradigm? Chinese domination, whereas now its "American" domination culture, which is skidding off the rails, no doubt about it. But Chinese? There will be discord....

[Ahab]

Are we prepared to fit in with the dominant paradigm? Chinese domination, whereas now its "American" domination culture, which is skidding off the rails, no doubt about it. But Chinese? There will be discord....

Not just whatever is dominate, but if what is dominant is good, then sure, unless something else is even better.

Good ole traditional family values, as they were once understood to be, aren't dependent on whether someone is American or Chinese or whatever other country they're from.

And yeah, I know, some people are prejudiced against things like skin color or something else that doesn't really matter in the least as far as whether something is good or not, but that still doesn't make whatever is good not good anymore.

[canard78]

You know all this from your nephew's wife?

This line:

To the Chinese, the presented view or story is the correct one, because it is the official one. All lookalikes are discredited as less genuine and can be ignored. The Chinese are totally accustomed to being told the "party line", and doing their best to comply with it. Why do otherwise? That benefits no one. So the "faith promoting" story of the LDS religion is the one that Chinese converts will want to know, the only one they will care about, and anything controversial is to be ignored as trivial and even unhelpful.

Sorry QB, but this is a tired old cliche. The Chinese know very well that their government news sources are propaganda-filled nonsense. Only the older generation watch them. The rising generation get on the internet, use VPN to bypass the 'Great Firewall' and access global media. The younger generation are skeptical of most things. They look for evidence, they second guess 'truth claims' and don't take your word for it.

They are a generation raised on the good principles of Confucianism, Daoism and Buddhism (even though some of them don't realise it). Communism was only a manifestation of chinese culture, not a killer of it. Religion, to them, is a curiosity. But they don't feel like they are missing out on some hidden gem of wisdom by not having free access to Christianity.

[Stone holm]

My nephew is soon to marry a Chinese girl, I forget where from in China, but not Hong Kong. Their marriage follows a lengthy courtship and engagement. My son-in-law's mother is full Chinese from Hong Kong. Thus our new grandson is one quarter Chinese.

For many years, the Chinese have lived under a totalitarian regime. This followed many generations of literal anarchy during the European colonial/imperialism epoch of the 19th century, effectively ending the "last dynasty" of emperors of China. It has never mystified me why the Chinese agree to labor under Communism. It has been better than the anarchy before that. The Chinese are, arguably, the most tradition-bound culture on earth. They've been keeping written histories longer than anybody else. Their family traditions are strong and enduring. And it seems to me that once politico-economic interests of the USA and China are bound "hip and thigh" (as I am quite confident they will be in the near future), that the LDS faith will take off and "sell like hotcakes". Then we will all see something!

US Chinese president. US Mormon Chinese president, not to mention president of the LDS Church.

What the USA could use right now, and even more as time is wasting, is a strong shot in the arm of strong traditional family values and societal expectations. Propriety. These the Chinese have in spades. What the Chinese need is more individual liberty. A "marriage" of the two would be beneficial, and, interesting. Religion-wise not the least.

I predict that the Chinese people will not be bothered in the least by "the issues" that many of us bring up on fora like this one, and in symposiums or critical publications, etc. To the Chinese, the presented view or story is the correct one, because it is the official one. All lookalikes are discredited as less genuine and can be ignored. The Chinese are totally accustomed to being told the "party line", and doing their best to comply with it. Why do otherwise? That benefits no one. So the "faith promoting" story of the LDS religion is the one that Chinese converts will want to know, the only one they will care about, and anything controversial is to be ignored as trivial and even unhelpful. In many ways this is very sensible policy. It certainly makes "the hive" function well with everyone happily content with their part, and, ideally, well taken care of by the abundance that the State provides through common cause and effort, etc.

LDS values and Chinese values are almost identical. You can read this last line and skip the rest if you are pressed for time. ...

Questing Beast you have to be the King of Snark! There is some truth in what you say. Although most of the capitalist venom is aimed at the successful socialist democracies in Europe because the American industrialists are busy taking advantage of cheap State controlled labor in China, I can't imagine that the Chinese are going to put up with the economic sacrifice indefinitely. At which time, I am not sure that religion is going to be busting out all over in China, I think it is more likely that holy heck is going to bust loose over there. But time will tell, meanwhile we should be teaching our children Chinese.

[canard78]

Questing Beast you have to be the King of Snark! There is some truth in what you say. Although most of the capitalist venom is aimed at the successful socialist democracies in Europe because the American industrialists are busy taking advantage of cheap State controlled labor in China, I can't imagine that the Chinese are going to put up with the economic sacrifice indefinitely. At which time, I am not sure that religion is going to be busting out all over in China, I think it is more likely that holy heck is going to bust loose over there. But time will tell, meanwhile we should be teaching our children Chinese.

Ah... so I shouldn't have taken him seriously?

[bu11fr0g]

Pure prejudice. What has happened in the areas where Chinese are free -- Chinatowns and Chinese enclaves and Taiwan?

[Questing Beast]

Now I am accused of not being serious. Ignorant, surely, but also serious. What I wrote is what I partly entertain and what I hear and what I speculate upon. Are the Chinese of the rising generation still largely traditional about family structure and values? Are they more into following authority or rebelling against it? Does any Westerner know? I do think it highly likely, I hesitate to say inevitable, that China and the USA will "merge" politically and economically. This will occur simply because the ongoing process of China buying debts and property will result in legal ties over much of the USA. The effect of Chinese influence here will become increasingly huge. And what does the USA have to offer the merging cultures? Religion "American style". IF the typical Chinese family stands strong in values and solidarity, Mormonism is probably the closest thing to promoting that religiously that there is going....

[Stone holm]

Now I am accused of not being serious. Ignorant, surely, but also serious. What I wrote is what I partly entertain and what I hear and what I speculate upon. Are the Chinese of the rising generation still largely traditional about family structure and values? Are they more into following authority or rebelling against it? Does any Westerner know? I do think it highly likely, I hesitate to say inevitable, that China and the USA will "merge" politically and economically. This will occur simply because the ongoing process of China buying debts and property will result in legal ties over much of the USA. The effect of Chinese influence here will become increasingly huge. And what does the USA have to offer the merging cultures? Religion "American style". IF the typical Chinese family stands strong in values and solidarity, Mormonism is probably the closest thing to promoting that religiously that there is going....

Well you may be right America does appear to be headed towards a ruling elite and a mass of peasants.

[canard78]

Now I am accused of not being serious. Ignorant, surely, but also serious. What I wrote is what I partly entertain and what I hear and what I speculate upon. Are the Chinese of the rising generation still largely traditional about family structure and values? Are they more into following authority or rebelling against it? Does any Westerner know? I do think it highly likely, I hesitate to say inevitable, that China and the USA will "merge" politically and economically. This will occur simply because the ongoing process of China buying debts and property will result in legal ties over much of the USA. The effect of Chinese influence here will become increasingly huge. And what does the USA have to offer the merging cultures? Religion "American style". IF the typical Chinese family stands strong in values and solidarity, Mormonism is probably the closest thing to promoting that religiously that there is going....

This is a worthwhile read: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0143118005/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/178-4845261-4469139

In China there is a rising pride in Chinese identity. Chinese brands are growing faster than their western counterparts. 'Western' used to be the aspirational tag. It's not the case today. Brands like LiNing compete well with Nike. Lenovo is the number one laptop brand in world (by sales).

The rising Chinese generation are not looking to Westernise, they are looking to Modernise. There is a difference.

They are very different to a model like Philippines. PH was lifted into (relative) modernity by the USA (and Spain before them). Malaysia is another that has had that Western influence on their culture.

Taiwan and Homg Kong are not comparable. They are small independent countries that either already had (HK) or needed (TW) a big brother. China had never had, nor needed one (no 1984 reference intended).

China is developing on its own terms. Most of the rising generation are not really bothered by the limitations of their government because they are not noticed. Life is improving for them. No-one cares that (eg) Facebook is blocked. Their version, Weibo/Weixin is far superior and has nearly as many users as FB. All their friends are on there, not FB. Those who want to can get on FB/YouTube any time they like.

There's nothing driving them culturally into the arms of the Americans.

[cdowis]

"family values"

Wonder how the LDS family value having 6-12 children will go over in a society limiting itself to 2 children.

[canard78]

"family values"

Wonder how the LDS family value having 6-12 children will go over in a society limiting itself to 2 children.

It's not society limiting itself to 2. It's the law. And it's a "single child policy"... not sure where you got the "2" from.

And if you're not aware of Chinese filial piety, then you don't understand the Chinese. Family values (regardless of family size) is the priority for all generations.

[CV75]

LDS values and Chinese values are almost identical.

Where I take LDS values to be largely spiritual (with a subset or adjunct "intangible" involving culture) and Chinese values to be cultural (with a subset or adjunct "intangible" involving spiritual matters), I'm sure there is an intersection where they are actially identical as well as "almost identical." The aims of the Gospel and the Church will be facilitated wherever these intersections ocurr.

I noted a significant number of references to politics and only scanned them, but I suppose the Gospel and the Church and their adherents will be as influential politically in China as they are anywhere else.

[canard78]

Where I take LDS values to be largely spiritual (with a subset or adjunct "intangible" involving culture) and Chinese values to be cultural (with a subset or adjunct "intangible" involving spiritual matters), I'm sure there is an intersection where they are actially identical as well as "almost identical." The aims of the Gospel and the Church will be facilitated wherever these intersections ocurr.

I noted a significant number of references to politics and only scanned them, but I suppose the Gospel and the Church and their adherents will be as influential politically in China as they are anywhere else.

The Chinese already have a very good heritage of ethics and morals to guide them. Divinely inspired too:

“The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.

First Presidency Statement, 1978

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/01/i-have-a-question?lang=eng

And:

God... has inspired not only people of the Bible and the Book of Mormon but other people as well to carry out His purposes through all cultures and parts of the world. God inspires not only Latter-day Saints but also founders, teachers, philosophers, and reformers of other Christian and non-Christian religions. The restored gospel holds a positive relationship with other religions.

Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf

http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/global-mormonism-21st-century/20-church-cross-cultural-world

And:

God raises up wise men and prophets here and there among all the children of men, of their own tongue and nationality, speaking to them through means that they can comprehend. … All the great teachers are servants of God; among all nations and in all ages. They are inspired men, appointed to instruct God’s children according to the conditions in the midst of which he finds them.

2000 article in the Ensign quoting B.H. Roberts

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2000/08/a-latter-day-saint-perspective-on-muhammad?lang=eng

[Stone holm]

Where I take LDS values to be largely spiritual (with a subset or adjunct "intangible" involving culture) and Chinese values to be cultural (with a subset or adjunct "intangible" involving spiritual matters), I'm sure there is an intersection where they are actially identical as well as "almost identical." The aims of the Gospel and the Church will be facilitated wherever these intersections ocurr.

I noted a significant number of references to politics and only scanned them, but I suppose the Gospel and the Church and their adherents will be as influential politically in China as they are anywhere else.

Funny how that works isn't it. We use it and its all American as apple pie religion, the Chinese practice it and its a cultural thing.

[Questing Beast]

I'm not so sure that the Chinese are growing disinterested in "Western", that is to say mainly "American", culture. Preferring their own products to foreign is not a real indicator. If indigenous products are as good or better, they are bound to be cheaper, thus preferred. People everywhere are pragmatic economically. Americans buy Chinese because it works out better to do so. We don't buy American just because we are fans of our own. Later, after the Chinese have migrated here in flocks, if not droves, we will see something different: interbreeding. It is a resented and unnatural law to limit children. Free access to both continents would end that, and I know that both cultures find each other's sexuality attractive, for the usual complex of reasons. Religious connections then become inevitable. And as I have already asserted, there is much about Mormonism that is naturally attractive to Chinese cultural mores especially regarding family and loyalty to the Nation....

Edited July 17, 2013 by Questing Beast

[cdowis]

It's not society limiting itself to 2. It's the law. And it's a "single child policy"... not sure where you got the "2" from.

Zhao: First, I'd like to explain China's family planning policy. China's family planning policy is not the "one child policy" as understood by some people. The government advocates each couple to have one child in accordance with the family planning policy. However, any couple facing genuine difficulties, mainly those in rural areas whose first child is a girl, can apply for the birth of second child by going through the necessary formalities. If couples in urban areas are both the product of a one child family they are entitled to produce a second child

http://www.china.org...2/Oct/46138.htm

Edited July 17, 2013 by cdowis

[CV75]

The Chinese already have a very good heritage of ethics and morals to guide them. Divinely inspired too:

I agree—when I was using “Chinese” it was in the nationalistic sense. As LDS is not synonymous with “American,” and “Chinese” is not synonymous with Confucianism or any other particular set of ethics and morals that might be found within its borders.

I am making a distinction between what we call the religious or philosophical systems (LDS/Buddhism/Taoism) and what we call the citizens of nations (Americans and Chinese) since it seemed to me the OP invited some confusion between the two.

Although some overlap can be found between a national system and a philosophical system, the overlap between the philosophical systems is where the Church will most often make inroads and where persons of any nationality will most often recognize some commonality with their own belief system's and the Church's.

[CV75]

Funny how that works isn't it. We use it and its all American as apple pie religion, the Chinese practice it and its a cultural thing.

I don't think you really understood what I wrote (see post immediately above).

[CV75]

canard and Stone, I think you are kind of stuck on conflating a philosphical system with a national system or identity. Separet the two and you will see what I am talkign about.

[Stone holm]

canard and Stone, I think you are kind of stuck on conflating a philosphical system with a national system or identity. Separet the two and you will see what I am talkign about.

Philosophical system, huh, ..... hm, nope don't see it.

[CV75]

Philosophical system, huh, ..... hm, nope don't see it.

Maybe you need to be a bit more flexible!

You really cannot see LDS beliefs and such beliefs as Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism as philosophical systems? Even if you prefer to call them something else (religious/thought/worship or even cultural systems—depending on how far you wants to argue that irrelevant point), they are still not nationalities.

While a nation’s culture may influence its citizens’ religious beliefs and practices (and vice-versa), the nationality itself defines neither. LDS are simply not Americans by virtue of being LDS (and vice-versa) and likewise, Chinese are not Taoists by virtue of being Chinese. For example, that both LDS and many religions found in China are family-oriented (pun unintended) has nothing to do with the nationalities of their members. Even as a cultural artifact, such things as familial piety among either group are not imbeded in the nationality.

[Stone holm]

Maybe you need to be a bit more flexible!

You really cannot see LDS beliefs and such beliefs as Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism as philosophical systems? Even if you prefer to call them something else (religious/thought/worship or even cultural systems—depending on how far you wants to argue that irrelevant point), they are still not nationalities.

While a nation’s culture may influence its citizens’ religious beliefs and practices (and vice-versa), the nationality itself defines neither. LDS are simply not Americans by virtue of being LDS (and vice-versa) and likewise, Chinese are not Taoists by virtue of being Chinese. For example, that both LDS and many religions found in China are family-oriented (pun unintended) has nothing to do with the nationalities of their members. Even as a cultural artifact, such things as familial piety among either group are not imbeded in the nationality.

Some might argue that the missionaries are spreading more than the gospel, they are spreading a certain type of lifestyle as an ideal. That lifestyle held up as an ideal is, some would argue, a white American middle class lifestyle firmly anchored in the mores of the 1950s. Further, some might argue that America is a nation of immigrants so when you say someone is American, the depth and significance of that label is quite different than saying someone is Chinese.

[canard78]

Zhao: First, I'd like to explain China's family planning policy. China's family planning policy is not the "one child policy" as understood by some people. The government advocates each couple to have one child in accordance with the family planning policy. However, any couple facing genuine difficulties, mainly those in rural areas whose first child is a girl, can apply for the birth of second child by going through the necessary formalities. If couples in urban areas are both the product of a one child family they are entitled to produce a second child

http://www.china.org...2/Oct/46138.htm

I'm very familiar with the exceptions available. I have a Chinese colleague who has a sister and another who is one of 3. But they apply to relatively few. The last one on the list from Zhao doesn't usually happen and doesn't apply in most cities. The other exceptions not listed above are: if you can pay (a second, unauthorised child usually incurs a fine - roughly equivalent to one year's salary), if you have the right connections to the family department in your local city (remains a key social driver) and third if you are from one of the Chinese ethnic minorities (in which case you are allowed 2).

Anyway... my main point was to say that the number of children they have (usually 1 or, with exceptions, 2) has no influence on the value they place on "family values." Perhaps it was just a quip on your part anyway and I took the bait without need.