Could Reincarnation Work?

[Thinking]

Assuming that life on this earth is a test, consider the possibility of reincarnation. Current LDS doctrine as I understand it is that I am allowed only one mortal life to prove myself. I will be born into a unique set of circumstances. In other words, I will not take the same test as you. With reincarnation I could be born poor in one life, rich in another, and so on.

What LDS doctrines could not exist with reincarnation, and which ones could?

[strappinglad]

If we are to endure to the end, then which end ? Reincarnation could be a two edged sword. Endure faithfully in one life and then totally mess up in the next.

[volgadon]

There was a Sunstone paper proposing that Joseph believed in reincarnation. I've been investigating the claims, and so far I don't see it, but who knows.

[changed]

I have some friends who are Hindu, and they were asking me if we believed in other lives - trying to find a thread to bind us (and there are many - they also have religious dietary laws, they also go to a temple, they also dress modestly, are very family oriented, etc. etc. etc.) anyways, I told them yes - we believed that we existed before we were born in this life (pre-mortal life) and that we will continue to exist after we die, that this current life isn't our only existence - and before I could really explain too much of it, my friends became very excited, that we all believed in reincarnation - although our version of it seemed a bit different than theirs, but hey, close enough.

Edited July 12, 2013 by changed

[Freedom]

There is no room for this belief. We are experiencing on earth what we need to experience. Reincarnation is like being allowed to go to university over and over again and get kicked out but them not being able to keep you out. You can do what ever you want and there is never a consequence. You can just keep coming back again and again. You take the course and you have one exam. If you don't prepare that is your own fault.

[iamse7en]

During our talks he [Lorenzo Snow] told me that his sister, the late Eliza R. Snow Smith was a firm believer in the principle of reincarnation and that she claimed to have received it from Joseph the Prophet, her husband. He said he saw nothing unreasonable in it, and could believe it, if it came to him from the Lord or his oracle. (Diary of Orson F. Whitney, 8 June 1889)

Prescendia Huntington Buell (another plural wife of Joseph) also apparently affirmed her belief in "plural probations."

This evening I heard that Pres. Woodruff, in a meeting at Manti, a few days ago, publicly declared that the doctrine of reincarnation, that is one spirit having several bodies, to be false; that he was Wilford Woodruff and no one else, &c &c. Alright, bro. Woodruff, if you really said it, it is between you and the Lord. I believe it to be a true doctrine, & have for the last [word cut out of entry] years." (Diary of Orson F. Whitney, 3 June 1889)

We also heard him [Joseph Smith] say that God had revealed unto him that any man who ever committed adultery in either of his probations that that man could never be raised to the highest exaltation in the Celestial Glory and that he felt anxious with regard to himself and he inquired of the Lord and the Lord told him that he, Joseph, had never committed adultery. This saying of the prophet astonished me very much. It opened up to me a very wide field of reflection. The idea that we had passed through probations prior to this and that we must have been married and given in marriage in those probations or there would be no propriety in making such an assertion and that there were several exaltations in the Celestial Kingdom of our God. ... we will know the truth of the matter some day. ("History of Joseph Lee Robinson," pp. 12)

But that could just infer that one could commit adultery in the pre-mortal "probation." There is also this incident:

I resumed conversation with Matthias, and desired him to enlighten my mind more on his views respecting the resurrection.

He said that he possessed the spirit of his fathers, that he was a literal descendant of Matthias, the Apostle, who was chosen in the place of Judas that fell; that his spirit was resurrected in him; and that this was the way or scheme of eternal life—this transmigration of soul or spirit from father to son.

I told him that his doctrine was of the devil, that he was in reality in possession of a wicked and depraved spirit, although he professed to be the Spirit of truth itself; and he said also that he possessed the soul of Christ. (TPJS 105)

The other issue here is what someone means when they say "reincarnation." Reincarnation to many people infers living a life in one body, dying, then coming back again in another body. I know many fundamentalists have clung to reincarnation. Some of them have claimed to be Joseph Smith reincarnated, Fred Collier is one of them I believe. Brigham Young believed you retain your same body. Those particles belong to you and will always be yours unless you become like the wicked one down to reprobation and dissolution. My readings of Brigham suggest you cannot come back to occupy another body in this life/earth:

We have another one in the Quorum of the Twelve [referring to Orson Hyde] who believes that infants actually have the spirits of some who have formerly lived on the earth, and that this is their resurrection, which is a doctrine so absurd and foolish that I cannot find language to express my sentiments in relation to it. (Brigham Young, JD 12:66)

Not more than a week since, I was told the baby resurrection doctrine was spreading among the people. It is something I do not understand. Some say the spirit of Joseph Smith is in the bodies of their children and some have the spirit of Hyrum, and I do not know but some would go so far as to say that the spirit of old Mother Smith had actually come into the body of some child before she was dead. The returning again of the spirits of the dead into the bodies of our babies is the theory of the Baby Resurrection. (The Tchgs. of B.Y., Vol. 3, p. 247)

There is another thought which strikes my mind at this moment, upon which it will perhaps be well enough to throw out a few ideas. It has been, and is now, believed by numerous individuals, that the brute creation, by increase in knowledge and wisdom, change their physical or bodily organization, through numerous states of existence, so that the minutest insect, in the lapse of time, can take to itself the human form, and vice versa. This is one of the most inconsistent ideas that could be possibly entertained in the mind of man; it is called the transmigration of souls. (Brigham Young, JD 1:92-93)

E. D. Woolley was called upon to preach a funeral sermon or rather upon the resurrection of the dead as some of the saints had advanced some erroneous ideas concerning the resurrection. Brother Woolley had some incorrect ideas. When he closed President Young followed and made many good remarks. He said that we should have the same bonafide identical body that our spirit occupied while in this life. Our graves would literally be opened and our bodies come forth. (Wilford Woodruff Journal, 2/19/1854)

Certainly, messengers have come back to this earth in their same body, but never in a different body. Of course, as most know, Brigham Young and many others also taught that Michael was an exalted being who lived as a mortal on another earth, until he was exalted. Then he begat spirits, created an earth, and peopled it by eating fruit, becoming mortal again, and begetting earthly bodies for his spirit children to dwell in. In essence, this was another mortality, though his state, power, keys, and priesthood was different than when he was a mortal for the first time (before becoming exalted). Thus, in this sense, multiple mortalities or plural probations is a true doctrine (to Adam-God adherents at least). Some may even refer to this principle as reincarnation (though I wouldn't). The exalted man and woman retain their same body and will presumably condescend to multiple mortalities for their spirit children. Brigham consistently denied ridiculous doctrines such as the baby resurrection and transmigration of souls, because they violated eternal principles. However, there is also this belief of Brigham's he once expressed, which does suggest a spirit occupying two different mortal bodies:

President Young said when some people have little children born at 6 and 7 months from pregnancy and they live a few hours then die, they bless them, name them, but I don't do it for I think that such a spirit has not a fair chance, for I think that such a spirit will have a chance of occupying another tabernacle and develop itself. This is new doctrine, yet it looks consistent. What period of demarkation or age the spirit would take another body we were not informed. (Journal of Wilford Woodruff, 10/16/1857)

But he is also inferring that the body had not yet developed fully, so it wasn't fully that spirit's personal tabernacle, because he did believe the spirit was in that tabernacle at this time in utero, because he believed the spirit enters the body at "quickening" or when the mother feels life. This seems to be a rare exception of a spirit entering two different bodies, but this was a thought or speculation of his.

There is also the parallel that intelligences develop by obedience to their sphere of laws, until they may be added upon with another organization, whether it be plant, animal, or the greatest of all, spirit bodies. If these beings and spirits choose to become as the wicked one, they may suffer the 2nd death (dissolution) and lose their physical and mortal bodies and return to their native element. "The rebellious will be thrown back into their native element, there to remain myriads of years before their dust will again be revived, before they will be reorganized" (JD 1:114). Element cannot be destroyed or annihilated, and the wicked/perdition will lose these gifts of organization (both physical and spirit bodies), and those particles may be used again in other organizations. These principles of progression and dissolution have similar parallels to reincarnation, but it is still quite different.

Many Fundamentalists also like to use Heber C. Kimball's potter's clay analogy, of clay being thrown back into the mill until it's submissive and ready, to imply reincarnation or multiple mortalities before one is exalted. However, most of the time, he is referring to the refining process of suffering in spirit prison, before one's resurrection:

Now do you see into that, brethren? I know the potters can. I tell you, brethren, if you are not passive you will have to go into that mill, and perhaps have to grind there one thousand years, and then the Gospel will be offered to you again, and then if you will not accept of it, and become passive, you will have to go into the mill again, and thus you will have offers of salvation from time to time, until all the human family, except the sons of perdition, are redeemed. The spirits of men will have the Gospel as we do, and they are to be judged according to men in the flesh. Let us be passive, and take a course that will be perfectly submissive. (Heber C. Kimball, JD 1:161)

However, there is also this quote of his, which might suggest something different:

Will any man ever be redeemed upon any other principle than what we are redeemed upon? No. Men must abide the same law, or God Almighty will never redeem them. If they violate that law, they bring damnation upon themselves, and must suffer the consequences of it. Still, I believe the greater part of the inhabitants of the earth will be redeemed; yea, all will be finally redeemed, except those who have sinned against the Holy Ghost or shed innocent blood; and they never can be redeemed until that debt is paid. And I do not know any way for them to pay it, unless they are brought back again to a mortal existence, and pay the debt where they contracted it. God will make every man pay off the debt he contracts; for a restoration must take place, which has been spoken of by the mouth of all the holy Prophets since the world began. God will make every man pay off the debt he contracts; for a restoration must take place, which has been spoken of by the mouth of all the holy Prophets since the world began. (Heber C. Kimball, JD 6:67, 11/22/1857)

A decent book on the topic of Reincarnation and how it fits with what the Prophets have said is this book by Ogden Kraut.

This is also connected to progression between kingdoms and universal salvation. Clearly, there are differing views, but it seems several of the leaders were open to it:

President Young thought none would inherit this earth when it became celestial and translated into the presence of God but those who would be crowned as Gods and able to endure the fulness of the presence of God except they might be permitted to take with them some servants for whom they would be held responsible. All others would have to inherit another kingdom, even that kingdom agreeing with the law which they had kept. Yet he thought they would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom but it would be a slow progress [sic] (Wilford Woodruff Journal, 8/5/1855)

It is reasonable to believe ... that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. (Articles of Faith, 1st Ed. (1899) pp. 420-421)

Once a person enters these glories there will be eternal progress in the line of each of these particular glories, but the privilege of passing from one to another (though this may be possible for especially gifted and faithful characters) is not provided for. (Joseph F. Smith, Improvement Era 14:87 [November 1910])

The brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point. (Secretary to the First Presidency in a 1952 letter)

[Differing view:]Those whose lives have entitled them to terrestrial glory can never gain celestial glory. One who gains possession of the lowest degree of the telestial glory may ultimately arise to the highest degree of that glory, but no provision has been made for promotion from one glory to another. (Melvin J. Ballard, Three Degrees of Glory, p.30)

Brigham's quote of "they would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom" is interesting. Does "proving yourself" require another mortal existence? Who knows. Still, these were his "thoughts" and opinions. There are certain eternal principles that cannot be destroyed, therefore, I am open to ideas of plural probations/multiple mortalities that have been alluded to by our leaders and do not throw aside eternal principles. But I do recognize the thought of "I can get there eventually" is one that can cause one to have spiritual complacency. Then again, that same spirit would occupy him in the next probation and would be a looooooooong progress [sic] as Brigham said.

[iamse7en]

Don't know how to edit a post, so I will only add some commentary to the "might suggest something different" HCK quote: Was he saying that those who sin against the Holy Ghost must come back to a mortal existence and pay the debt for sinning in such a manner? (This is contrary to the doctrine of Joseph Smith who said they never would be redeemed.) Or, was saying that the only way they could pay it is to come back if that were possible; but as he said, "all will be finally redeemed, except those who have sinned against the Holy Ghost or shed innocent blood. . . ." Most likely in that context, he is inferring it isn't possible to come back again in a mortal state to pay that debt, which pokes a big hole in the some Fundamentalists' claim that Heber believed in this type of multiple mortalities.

[thesometimesaint]

Only one reincarnation to a person.

[Alan]

I have believed in reincarnation for some years.

However, I don't believe it is universal, or applicable in all circumstances. I believe that if our lives, and therefore our life's mission, is cut short by the exercise of the free agency of others (murder, manslaughter etc), then we are given the option of returning to finish the job, so to speak. This is a choice, and is probably made for the benefit of others, rather than for ourselves.

I had a personal experience when I was very young which has stayed with me ever since and which convinced me of the limited occurance of reincarnation.

[Calm]

I have always thought that experiences that suggest reincarnation are most likely due to us eavesdropping or otherwise keeping an eye on what is happening in the physical world while we were waiting for our turn. I would think spirits would be fascinated with all the going ons especially if we could pick up pointers for our own experience that way. And perhaps this explains the tendency of many people to want to know the intimate details of the lives of total strangers through celebrity gossip and now social media...it is a habit from the preexistence they haven't been able to shake.

[Freedom]

There is a saying 'just because you receive a revelation does not mean you understand a revelation'. Just because you experienced a moment that suggests reincarnation does not mean you experienced reincarnation. I no more want to be reincarnated than I want to go through high school again. I'm done, time to move on to the next stage.

[mfbukowski]

There is no functional need for reincarnation in the LDS schema.

We advance and repent after death anyway, in our model so successive lives would give us no advantages.

There is also a direct conflict with the idea that there are different types of bodies which one receives according to which kingdom one is judged to be worthy of. If we keep getting re-issued bodies, this doctrine makes no sense and 1 Corinthians falls with it I would think.

I think the idea is not necessary and is indeed incompatible with the LDS model.

[ERayR]

There is no functional need for reincarnation in the LDS schema.

We advance and repent after death anyway, in our model so successive lives would give us no advantages.

There is also a direct conflict with the idea that there are different types of bodies which one receives according to which kingdom one is judged to be worthy of. If we keep getting re-issued bodies, this doctrine makes no sense and 1 Corinthians falls with it I would think.

I think the idea is not necessary and is indeed incompatible with the LDS model.

Oh shucks I was thinking something cushy like a rich ladies lap dog.

[strappinglad]

What if you wanted to go to earth again? The vast majority of people have lived without the gospel. What would it hurt to do a mulligan especially if you died young and wanted to experience more of mortality ? Walking a mile in another's shoes could have a different meaning, particularly if you wanted to have a better understanding of the opposite gender. ( but I digress )

[changed]

...especially if you died young ...

At a funeral for a little 2yo, our bishop gave a very good talk - in it he said:

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 121:25)

25 For there is a time appointed for every man, according as his works shall be.

122:9 Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever.

that there are no accidents when it comes to how long someone is given to live - that we are each given the exact right amount of time to do what we need to do, and become who we need to become, so there is no point in saying things like "they should have lived longer" because that sort of thinking is nonsense - one way or another, all of our days are numbered, and we will all live as long as we are supposed to live, and die when we are supposed to die.... those were not his exact words, but that was the gist, and I thought it was very conforting, especially for this particular situation.

Edited July 13, 2013 by changed

[strappinglad]

How then can a man be punished for ending the life of a child if that child only was supposed to live that long? Something isn't right here. Now you are going to tell me that the several hundred thousand who died in the recent tsunami had all lived the precise amount of time needed and if the tsunami had come two days later, there would have been chaos in heaven as all would have been out of order. Cain killed Abel and was cursed because of it and his descendants also all because he served as an instrument at the right place and time . Sorry , I don't see it. There are consequences to our behaviors. Some lives are cut short, some are extended for a purpose, some just are what they are because of the nature of life.

[ERayR]

I have always thought that experiences that suggest reincarnation are most likely due to us eavesdropping or otherwise keeping an eye on what is happening in the physical world while we were waiting for our turn. I would think spirits would be fascinated with all the going ons especially if we could pick up pointers for our own experience that way. And perhaps this explains the tendency of many people to want to know the intimate details of the lives of total strangers through celebrity gossip and now social media...it is a habit from the preexistence they haven't been able to shake.

This could be an answer to reincarnation experiences:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026845.000-memories-may-be-stored-on-your-dna.html

[mfbukowski]

Oh shucks I was thinking something cushy like a rich ladies lap dog.

Hey, if we get to pick, I would go for being the King of England. You can't get a cushier gig than that!

[Calm]

This could be an answer to reincarnation experiences:

http://www.newscient...n-your-dna.html

That is my mom's idea to a great extent.

[changed]

How then can a man be punished for ending the life of a child if that child only was supposed to live that long? Something isn't right here. Now you are going to tell me that the several hundred thousand who died in the recent tsunami had all lived the precise amount of time needed and if the tsunami had come two days later, there would have been chaos in heaven as all would have been out of order. Cain killed Abel and was cursed because of it and his descendants also all because he served as an instrument at the right place and time . Sorry , I don't see it. There are consequences to our behaviors. Some lives are cut short, some are extended for a purpose, some just are what they are because of the nature of life.

Death is always a tragedy - it doesn't matter how death comes, old or young, through murder or storm or sickness - we will all live long enough to experience what a body is, long enough to understand what good and evil is, and then we will all die. Correct me if I am wrong, but I blieve that part of the millinium work will be for families to be re-united with one another, for chidlren who have died early on to be raised by their own parents in a perfect world... you would not want to deny a mother's priviledge of raising her own children, by taking that child, reincarnating them, and giving them their growing up experiences with another, would you?

This is a good GC talk: http://www.lds.org/g...e-also?lang=eng

I would like to speak to those who have lost a child and have asked the question, “Why me?” or maybe even questioned your own faith in a loving Father in Heaven. It is my prayer that by the power of the Holy Ghost, I may bring some measure of hope, of peace, and of understanding. It is my desire to be an instrument in bringing about a restoration of your faith in our loving Father in Heaven, who knows all things and allows us to experience trials so that we can come to know and love Him and understand that without Him we have nothing.

On February 4 of 1990, our third son and sixth child was born. We named him Tyson. He was a beautiful little boy, and the family greeted him with open hearts and open arms. His brothers and sisters were so proud of him. We all thought he was the most perfect little boy who had ever been born.

When Tyson was eight months old, he aspirated a piece of chalk that he had found on the carpet. The chalk lodged in Tyson’s throat, and he quit breathing. His older brother brought Tyson upstairs, frantically calling, “The baby won’t breathe. The baby won’t breathe.” We began to administer CPR and called 911.

The paramedics arrived and rushed Tyson to the hospital. In the waiting room we continued in fervent prayer as we pled to God for a miracle. After what seemed a lifetime, the doctor came into the room and said, “I am so sorry. There is nothing more we can do. Take all the time you need.” She then left.

As we entered the room where Tyson lay, we saw our lifeless little bundle of joy. It seemed as though he had a celestial glow around his little body. He was so radiant and pure.

At that moment it felt as if our world had come to an end. How could we return to the other children and somehow try to explain that Tyson wasn’t coming home?

I will speak in the singular as I relate the rest of this experience. My angel wife and I experienced this trial together, but I am inadequate in expressing the feelings of a mother and would not even try to do so.

It is impossible to describe the mixture of feelings that I had at that point in my life. Most of the time I felt as if I were in a bad dream and that I would soon wake up and this terrible nightmare would be over. For many nights I didn’t sleep. I often wandered in the night from one room to the other, making sure that our other children were all safe.

Feelings of guilt racked my soul. I felt so guilty. I felt dirty. I was his father; I should have done more to protect him. If only I would have done this or that. Sometimes even today, 22 years later, those feelings begin to creep into my heart, and I need to get rid of them quickly because they can be destructive.

About a month after Tyson died, I had an interview with Elder Dean L. Larsen. He took the time to listen to me, and I will always be grateful for his counsel and love. He said, “I don’t think the Lord would want you to punish yourself for the death of your little boy.” I felt the love of my Heavenly Father through one of his chosen vessels.

However, tormenting thoughts continued to plague me, and I soon began to feel anger. “This isn’t fair! How could God do this to me? Why me? What did I do to deserve this?” I even felt myself get angry with people who were just trying to comfort us. I remember friends saying, “I know how you feel.” I would think to myself, “You have no idea how I feel. Just leave me alone.” I soon found that self-pity can also be very debilitating. I was ashamed of myself for having unkind thoughts about dear friends who were only trying to help.

As I felt the guilt, anger, and self-pity trying to consume me, I prayed that my heart could change. Through very personal sacred experiences, the Lord gave me a new heart, and even though it was still lonely and painful, my whole outlook changed. I was given to know that I had not been robbed but rather that there was a great blessing awaiting me if I would prove faithful.

My life started to change, and I was able to look forward with hope, rather than look backward with despair. I testify that this life is not the end. The spirit world is real. The teachings of the prophets regarding life after death are true. This life is but a transitory step forward on our journey back to our Heavenly Father.

Tyson has remained a very integral part of our family. Through the years it has been wonderful to see the mercy and kindness of a loving Father in Heaven, who has allowed our family to feel in very tangible ways the influence of Tyson. I testify that the veil is thin. The same feelings of loyalty, love, and family unity don’t end as our loved ones pass to the other side; instead, those feelings are intensified.

Sometimes people will ask, “How long did it take you to get over it?” The truth is, you will never completely get over it until you are together once again with your departed loved ones. I will never have a fulness of joy until we are reunited in the morning of the First Resurrection.

“For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

“And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.”³

But in the meantime, as the Savior taught, we can continue with good cheer.⁴

I have learned that the bitter, almost unbearable pain can become sweet as you turn to your Father in Heaven and plead for His comfort that comes through His plan; His Son, Jesus Christ; and His Comforter, who is the Holy Ghost.

What a glorious blessing this is in our lives. Wouldn’t it be tragic if we didn’t feel great sorrow when we lose a child? How grateful I am to my Father in Heaven that He allows us to love deeply and love eternally. How grateful I am for eternal families. How grateful I am that He has revealed once again through His living prophets the glorious plan of redemption.

Remember as you attended the funeral of your loved one the feelings in your heart as you drove away from the cemetery and looked back to see that solitary casket—wondering if your heart would break.

I testify that because of Him, even our Savior, Jesus Christ, those feelings of sorrow, loneliness, and despair will one day be swallowed up in a fulness of joy. I testify that we can depend on Him and when He said:

“I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

“Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.”⁵

Edited July 13, 2013 by changed

[strappinglad]

Hey, if we get to pick, I would go for being the King of England. You can't get a cushier gig than that!

Depends on who is the Queen !!!

[Questing Beast]

Yes, of course "reincarnation" can work, without denying eternal principles. Therefore, reincarnation must be part of the way existence is done, or rather, creation is done. I cannot accept that, with our manifest individuality, "God" would restrict everyone to a single religious or metaphysical paradigm. Whatever works to best suit the needs of the individual soul must be allowable: including going back to a point in your life and "resetting" the "game" and continuing on (like in "Groundhog Day"), or experiencing multiple mortalities, or sitting in "time out" until you agree to "play nicely" or "by the rules", etc....

[mfbukowski]

Depends on who is the Queen !!!

Cheesh!

You can't keep SSM out of anything these days can you?

Edited July 13, 2013 by mfbukowski