The Economy Of Heaven

[Calm]

If we agree it is mostly a game psychology and both are incompatible with each other

We don't agree though.

[Stone holm]

We don't agree though.

I once had a gr uncle to whom I went for advice as a teenager regarding different career options that I envisioned, he pointed out to his carport in which sat a brand new Lincoln Continental and a brand new Thunderbird, he said see those? I replied, Yes. He said that is how we Americans keep score. Worst career advice I ever got, but it has kept groceries on the table and put a passel of kids through college. So, I tend to think most entrepreneurs get caught up in the game.

[ERayR]

I once had a gr uncle to whom I went for advice as a teenager regarding different career options that I envisioned, he pointed out to his carport in which sat a brand new Lincoln Continental and a brand new Thunderbird, he said see those? I replied, Yes. He said that is how we Americans keep score. Worst career advice I ever got, but it has kept groceries on the table and put a passel of kids through college. So, I tend to think most entrepreneurs get caught up in the game.

My problem is that I have never played the game well.

[Stone holm]

My problem is that I have never played the game well.

Well I am not sure that The Lord is paying attention to the score.

[Alvino]

We don't agree though.

Well, yeah, I was just presenting the backbone of my argument there.

Anyways, as I don't see you responding to anything now, I'll bail.

[Ahab]

Oh I agree. But most people don't want a handout, even if it is not really possible for them to do anything, but yes there should be basics. But the problem now is that we have people who are working full time jobs, and possibly second jobs and barely able to survive. We have other people who are underemployed or unemployed and can't find work. Our unemployment stats really underestimate the situation. This is a situation of trying to salvage human dignity for people -- they don't need to live in the lap of luxury, but they need employment where they don't have to worry about having enough to pay their bills and care for themselves and their children. And they should not be one serious sickness away from bankruptcy.

Since this thread is focused on the economy of heaven, which to me means the system used in heaven to regulate the exchange of goods and services, it might be good to contrast some things about that system with the system(s) we are now using on this planet.

In heaven, for example, we know that people won't die, as they do here on this planet. That means we won't have the pressure of needing food for our bodies to keep them alive, and we also won't need to concern ourselves so much about shelter to keep ourselves from freezing or sustained in the heat.

Think of the differences that will make for everybody! No more need to do things for others due to the basic need for survival! The "power" people have now on this world just because they have more "money" than others will no longer be an enticement for others, because they'll be able to go on living without doing something to get some money, so if the people who previously used money as a tool to get someone else to do something for them still want others to do something for them, then they'll need to have something else to offer others other than money, because the "power" of money will then be gone. Or at least that's the way I see it. Thus, it will be only because people have charity for others that they'll be willing to do something for others.

Say, for example, that in heaven someone wants someone else to help them make some tools for wood working, like they had here on this planet. You know, supposing that doesn't come as a standard option on the mansion everyone will be getting in heaven. What do you suppose those who want wood working tools will have to entice others to help them attain those tools? You know, also supposing someone without the tools can't just make them "poof" appear from out of nowhere or nothing. Hmm? What enticement could they offer someone to help them have those tools?

Seems to me that if we don't know of a way to get something from others without using money, we better start thinking about it. Otherwise we'll just have to settle for whatever we can do on our own, or whatever someone else may choose to give us out of the charity in their own heart.

[Stone holm]

Since this thread is focused on the economy of heaven, which to me means the system used in heaven to regulate the exchange of goods and services, it might be good to contrast some things about that system with the system(s) we are now using on this planet.

In heaven, for example, we know that people won't die, as they do here on this planet. That means we won't have the pressure of needing food for our bodies to keep them alive, and we also won't need to concern ourselves so much about shelter to keep ourselves from freezing or sustained in the heat.

Think of the differences that will make for everybody! No more need to do things for others due to the basic need for survival! The "power" people have now on this world just because they have more "money" than others will no longer be an enticement for others, because they'll be able to go on living without doing something to get some money, so if the people who previously used money as a tool to get someone else to do something for them still want others to do something for them, then they'll need to have something else to offer others other than money, because the "power" of money will then be gone. Or at least that's the way I see it. Thus, it will be only because people have charity for others that they'll be willing to do something for others.

Say, for example, that in heaven someone wants someone else to help them make some tools for wood working, like they had here on this planet. You know, supposing that doesn't come as a standard option on the mansion everyone will be getting in heaven. What do you suppose those who want wood working tools will have to entice others to help them attain those tools? You know, also supposing someone without the tools can't just make them "poof" appear from out of nowhere or nothing. Hmm? What enticement could they offer someone to help them have those tools?

Seems to me that if we don't know of a way to get something from others without using money, we better start thinking about it. Otherwise we'll just have to settle for whatever we can do on our own, or whatever someone else may choose to give us out of the charity in their own heart.

I would expect that there will be considerable collaboration. Think of people exchanging recipes. "Am having a problem with this stiff-necked civilization developing." "Oh, try this approach I have found it worked on planet Z" However, I have heard people arguing that there will be competition in heaven, and a member of our Bishopric suggested informally in an email recently that in Zion they will use the gold standard. So I wonder if our current temporal economic system isn't screwing up our training, to the extent that this life is intended to prepare us for the next.

[Calm]

the system used in heaven to regulate the exchange of goods and services

I would expect that there will be considerable collaboration.

If God can command the elements and they obey them and we, being one with him, will likely have similar creative powers, I am not sure what goods and services will need to be exchanged, at least for those who have that level of ability to create...which over simpler things may be all inhabitants of the Celestial Kingdom to my view and quite possibly the Terrestrial as well. Don't think the Telestial as self control is required in my view before being able to control the elements or anything else.

[Stone holm]

If God can command the elements and they obey them and we, being one with him, will likely have similar creative powers, I am not sure what goods and services will need to be exchanged, at least for those who have that level of ability to create...which over simpler things may be all inhabitants of the Celestial Kingdom to my view and quite possibly the Terrestrial as well. Don't think the Telestial as self control is required in my view before being able to control the elements or anything else.

God doesn't create under Mormon theology, He organizes. But I assume that we will have access to all the raw materials we need, I suspect that the collaboration will primarily be in the form of information exchange.

[Calm]

God doesn't create under Mormon theology, He organizes. But I assume that we will have access to all the raw materials we need, I suspect that the collaboration will primarily be in the form of information exchange.

LDS typically use the term interchangeably. "Cause the elements to form into what is needed" is how I was using it as should be evident from the "command and obey" reference. And he organizes by his word and I have yet to see any reference to God having to go out and bring all the elements together on his own rather than commanding them to do whatever is necessary.

Information exchange.....that will be interesting to figure out how that works considering we will be one and that is generally taken to be of one heart and one mind, so that might mean we all know what anyone else knows.

[Stone holm]

LDS typically use the term interchangeably. "Cause the elements to form into what is needed" is how I was using it as should be evident from the "command and obey" reference. And he organizes by his word and I have yet to see any reference to God having to go out and bring all the elements together on his own rather than commanding them to do whatever is necessary.

Information exchange.....that will be interesting to figure out how that works considering we will be one and that is generally taken to be of one heart and one mind, so that might mean we all know what anyone else knows.

Well we also will receive our own personal Urim and Thummim which I assume is a communication device, plus the Earth when celestialized becomes a gigantic Urim and Thummim -- I assume the personal one is for travel purposes, hope it doesn't have to be charged, I keep losing my chargers its hard enough searching the house, let alone the entire universe.

[Ahab]

I would expect that there will be considerable collaboration. Think of people exchanging recipes. "Am having a problem with this stiff-necked civilization developing." "Oh, try this approach I have found it worked on planet Z" However, I have heard people arguing that there will be competition in heaven, and a member of our Bishopric suggested informally in an email recently that in Zion they will use the gold standard. So I wonder if our current temporal economic system isn't screwing up our training, to the extent that this life is intended to prepare us for the next.

Oh the funny stuff you'll hear from some of us mortals here on this planet. There are some weird ideas floating around, even from and amongst bishops in the true church of Jesus Christ. As long as we learn from our Father, though, everything will work out, eventually. Even the "screw ups" can be overcome as we go on growing closer and closer to perfection.

[Ahab]

If God can command the elements and they obey them and we, being one with him, will likely have similar creative powers, I am not sure what goods and services will need to be exchanged, at least for those who have that level of ability to create...which over simpler things may be all inhabitants of the Celestial Kingdom to my view and quite possibly the Terrestrial as well. Don't think the Telestial as self control is required in my view before being able to control the elements or anything else.

There are some people on this planet, even some who are members of the Church, who think that all God has to do is say something and then "poof" whatever he says appears from out of nowhere or nothing. And then there are some people who think more like I do while thinking there is a little more to it than that, at least sometimes, or maybe depending on what you think of as the elements he can control. We are made up of elements, and while some of us will do what he says to do when he tells us to do something, there are others who aren't quite as cooperative in getting done what he wants to get done.

Take the creation of the Liahona, for example. Some think that all he did to create that director was to speak and then "poof" it was created from out of nowhere and nothing. I think it's more likely that he gave a command for that ball to be created, and then someone obeyed his command to create it using the elements it was made from. I don't think our skill in metal working and wood crafting and stone masonry will be discarded and of no use in heaven. Quite the contrary. We'll see the very best craftsmen in all of existence up there, when we're up there, or at least if we get to go to the same place in heaven where they are living.

And now back to my question: What are we going to do to get something we can't get by ourselves, as a lone individual? You say we'll cooperate with other people, and that other people will cooperate with us too, but you don't mention what it is or will be that will drive someone to want to help others by using their talents and abilities to do what they can to make something. Can we agree at least that money won't work? I know that I for one will no longer be doing anything just to get some money from someone else. In heaven I will have no use at all for any money. If I do something to help someone else, and I'm sure I will, it will be only because I want to help someone else due to the charity I have in my own heart for those I am helping, and God. And if others help me, they will be doing it for the same reason. Not to get money from me, or a "job" from me which will sustain their survival.

[Ahab]

Well we also will receive our own personal Urim and Thummim which I assume is a communication device, plus the Earth when celestialized becomes a gigantic Urim and Thummim -- I assume the personal one is for travel purposes, hope it doesn't have to be charged, I keep losing my chargers its hard enough searching the house, let alone the entire universe.

I imagine the best devices will be those we can power ourselves with our own energy, and not just from our physical exertions, but also from the energy/electricity/chemistry/radiation we have and will have coursing through our bodies. And then there will be those things we will power by solar energy, and wind energy, and water power, etc.

All we need is to learn more about how to tap into all of it.

[Stone holm]

There are some people on this planet, even some who are members of the Church, who think that all God has to do is say something and then "poof" whatever he says appears from out of nowhere or nothing. And then there are some people who think more like I do while thinking there is a little more to it than that, at least sometimes, or maybe depending on what you think of as the elements he can control. We are made up of elements, and while some of us will do what he says to do when he tells us to do something, there are others who aren't quite as cooperative in getting done what he wants to get done.

Take the creation of the Liahona, for example. Some think that all he did to create that director was to speak and then "poof" it was created from out of nowhere and nothing. I think it's more likely that he gave a command for that ball to be created, and then someone obeyed his command to create it using the elements it was made from. I don't think our skill in metal working and wood crafting and stone masonry will be discarded and of no use in heaven. Quite the contrary. We'll see the very best craftsmen in all of existence up there, when we're up there, or at least if we get to go to the same place in heaven where they are living.

And now back to my question: What are we going to do to get something we can't get by ourselves, as a lone individual? You say we'll cooperate with other people, and that other people will cooperate with us too, but you don't mention what it is or will be that will drive someone to want to help others by using their talents and abilities to do what they can to make something. Can we agree at least that money won't work? I know that I for one will no longer be doing anything just to get some money from someone else. In heaven I will have no use at all for any money. If I do something to help someone else, and I'm sure I will, it will be only because I want to help someone else due to the charity I have in my own heart for those I am helping, and God. And if others help me, they will be doing it for the same reason. Not to get money from me, or a "job" from me which will sustain their survival.

I don't know Calmoriah's response, but isn't that what we are supposed to be in training here to learn to share our talents, abilities, and information -- without expectation of reward? And I agree with you about the "poof" business, there seems to be this notion that God "creates" in the sense of snapping His fingers or saying "Let there be light." Had never thought of the Liahona as having been created in the Heavens, I assumed it was of Earthly manufacture and just provided to Lehi more or less like the Urim and Thummim and peepstones were provided to Joseph Smith.

[Ahab]

I don't know Calmoriah's response, but isn't that what we are supposed to be in training here to learn to share our talents, abilities, and information -- without expectation of reward?

In a word, it's called charity, and yes we should be learning to develop that within us just as it is an attribute of our Lord, and our Father. If capitalism worked on that principle, then we'd all have it made, or at least we'd be working toward doing all we can do to get everything done as it should be done and in the best way we can get it all done.

I agree with you about the "poof" business, there seems to be this notion that God "creates" in the sense of snapping His fingers or saying "Let there be light." Had never thought of the Liahona as having been created in the Heavens, I assumed it was of Earthly manufacture and just provided to Lehi more or less like the Urim and Thummim and peepstones were provided to Joseph Smith.

I think it helps to realize that heaven is a real place consisting of many real places and in those real places there are real things that are made by real people using real talents and abilities they have to create things, some of which we can't even imagine right now.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Ahab

[Stone holm]

In a word, it's called charity, and yes we should be learning to develop that within us just as it is an attribute of our Lord, and our Father. If capitalism worked on that principle, then we'd all have it made, or at least we'd be working toward doing all we can do to get everything done as it should be done and in the best way we can get it all done.

I think it helps to realize that heaven is a real place consisting of many real places and in those real places there are real things that are made by real people using real talents and abilities they have to create things, some of which we can't even imagine right now.

Interesting concept.

[BCSpace]

I am intrigued by the comments of several Europeans on this board who seem to think American LDS have a fixation on capitalism as being nigh unto doctrine. I realise it is almost impossible to discuss Mormon economic views without getting a thread locked, but feel this a sufficiently important topic to take it up again. Capitalism as practiced in America seems to require a certain amount of greed, ambition and competition to function. I find it difficult to locate doctrine that treats any of these as truly important virtues. Although one commentator has suggested that competition may extend to heavenly spheres there seems to be little support for the concept. When you bring up the United Order in Church any praise for the system is quickly followed by condemnation of socialism based on the idea that even democratic socialism violates agency. So. Is economics simply irrelevant from an eternal perspective or not?

Well, as you know, the Church has specific doctrine against Socialism which I link to in my siggy.

“Socialism, wholly materialistic, is founded in the wisdom of men and not of God. Although all socialists may not be atheists, none of them in theory or practice seek the Lord to establish his righteousness.

http://www.lds.org/m...rdship?lang=eng

And yes, I would have to say that Free Market Capitalism is the Lord's economy.

It's not difficult at all to locate these taught as truly important virtues. One merely has to search the scriptures, often just the ones commonly quoted or on some seminary list. 2 Nephi 2 for example shows that enticement is fundamental to agency. therefore, there will always be ambition and competition and yes even greed from now till the end of time and throughout all eternity. the Lords' system is completely neutral hence FMC is the only economy that matches and it happens to match perfectly. Lucifer's and the one third's fall from heaven illustrates this perfectly.

One of your other problems is that when you bring up the Law of Consecration and the United Order you seem to see it as some sort of economic system when it is not.

Edited July 17, 2013 by BCSpace

[Stone holm]

Well, as you know, the Church has specific doctrine against Socialism which I link to in my siggy.

And yes, I would have to say that Free Market Capitalism is the Lord's economy.

It's not difficult at all to locate these taught as truly important virtues. One merely has to search the scriptures, often just the ones commonly quoted or on some seminary list. 2 Nephi 2 for example shows that enticement is fundamental to agency. therefore, there will always be ambition and competition and yes even greed from now till the end of time and throughout all eternity. the Lords' system is completely neutral hence FMC is the only economy that matches and it happens to match perfectly. Lucifer's and the one third's fall from heaven illustrates this perfectly.

One of your other problems is that when you bring up the Law of Consecration and the United Order you seem to see it as some sort of economic system when it is not.

Comments by GAs from the red decade through the Cold War do not doctrine make.

[thesometimesaint]

Comments by GAs from the red decade through the Cold War do not doctrine make.

Agreed.

[Ahab]

Well, as you know, the Church has specific doctrine against Socialism which I link to in my siggy.

And yes, I would have to say that Free Market Capitalism is the Lord's economy.

It's not difficult at all to locate these taught as truly important virtues. One merely has to search the scriptures, often just the ones commonly quoted or on some seminary list. 2 Nephi 2 for example shows that enticement is fundamental to agency. therefore, there will always be ambition and competition and yes even greed from now till the end of time and throughout all eternity. the Lords' system is completely neutral hence FMC is the only economy that matches and it happens to match perfectly. Lucifer's and the one third's fall from heaven illustrates this perfectly.

One of your other problems is that when you bring up the Law of Consecration and the United Order you seem to see it as some sort of economic system when it is not.

Free market capitalism in itself isn't enough to bring about economic justice in a society when people are starting out at various levels of rich and poor, though. There needs to be some motivation for the rich to give to the poor, whether by the rich spending enough money buying goods and services from the poor so the poor can also become just as rich or by the rich just giving a lot of handouts, including grants and scholarships and such, to give the poor a fair chance to get out of their poverty. It takes an infusion of charity to make a FMC society function properly, and it can also be done without the use of any money with people simply sharing their goods and services with each other without any "medium" to facilitate the exchanges.

[Stone holm]

Free market capitalism in itself isn't enough to bring about economic justice in a society when people are starting out at various levels of rich and poor, though. There needs to be some motivation for the rich to give to the poor, whether by the rich spending enough money buying goods and services from the poor so the poor can also become just as rich or by the rich just giving a lot of handouts, including grants and scholarships and such, to give the poor a fair chance to get out of their poverty. It takes an infusion of charity to make a FMC society function properly, and it can also be done without the use of any money with people simply sharing their goods and services with each other without any "medium" to facilitate the exchanges.

Oh my Ahab, you have said something I agree with again.

[Avatar4321]

There are some people on this planet, even some who are members of the Church, who think that all God has to do is say something and then "poof" whatever he says appears from out of nowhere or nothing. And then there are some people who think more like I do while thinking there is a little more to it than that, at least sometimes, or maybe depending on what you think of as the elements he can control. We are made up of elements, and while some of us will do what he says to do when he tells us to do something, there are others who aren't quite as cooperative in getting done what he wants to get done.

Take the creation of the Liahona, for example. Some think that all he did to create that director was to speak and then "poof" it was created from out of nowhere and nothing. I think it's more likely that he gave a command for that ball to be created, and then someone obeyed his command to create it using the elements it was made from. I don't think our skill in metal working and wood crafting and stone masonry will be discarded and of no use in heaven. Quite the contrary. We'll see the very best craftsmen in all of existence up there, when we're up there, or at least if we get to go to the same place in heaven where they are living.

And now back to my question: What are we going to do to get something we can't get by ourselves, as a lone individual? You say we'll cooperate with other people, and that other people will cooperate with us too, but you don't mention what it is or will be that will drive someone to want to help others by using their talents and abilities to do what they can to make something. Can we agree at least that money won't work? I know that I for one will no longer be doing anything just to get some money from someone else. In heaven I will have no use at all for any money. If I do something to help someone else, and I'm sure I will, it will be only because I want to help someone else due to the charity I have in my own heart for those I am helping, and God. And if others help me, they will be doing it for the same reason. Not to get money from me, or a "job" from me which will sustain their survival.

I think you have a fairly accurate picture of how things will work.

Though, I dont necessary have a view that money necessarliy evil as some do. I think in this world it can be a tool to measure how much we are serving others. Imperfect yes, but that's because of society, not because of money in and of itself.

I expect we will be much better at just serving one another without the need to measure it.

[thesometimesaint]

I think you have a fairly accurate picture of how things will work.

Though, I dont necessary have a view that money necessarliy evil as some do. I think in this world it can be a tool to measure how much we are serving others. Imperfect yes, but that's because of society, not because of money in and of itself.

I expect we will be much better at just serving one another without the need to measure it.

To me money is just a means of exchange, the love of money OTOH is something quite different.

[Avatar4321]

To me money is just a means of exchange, the love of money OTOH is something quite different.

I agree. Money is just a way to value the labor we've performed or system we've set up to produce value.