Russia Again-- Law On "Offending Religious Feelings"

[Tacenda]

All truth Tacenda? Really? Somebody needs to reread the 13 articles of faith . Someone also needs to read any Conference talk and then an anti site article and see if there is any difference in tone . Having been raised on a farm with 500 pigs and a couple hundred cows ,I recognize a distinct odor wafting.

I never said it, and agree that we don't use anti tactics, but to them it's worse because our aproach is better and does convert their members away. You can't blame them for feeling antagonistic. How would you feel if Muslims, Scientologists, Jehovah's Witnesses (they lump us with them) or you name it, knocked on your door and converted your wife or children? They are at war sometimes, and use wrong tactics, but I do see the feelings of helplessness when they know the LDS church is so well run, has beautiful structures, speaks of eternal families and so much more. And they know that the milk is served long before the meat, to converts. I know the truth does stink.

[cdowis]

We are gvt. approved, otherwise there would be no visas for missionaries.

We are indeed a legal entity, but not sure if that is the same thing as "government approved". For example, the whole visa thing is pretty dicey -- they have to leave the country after a certain period of time, and then re-apply for a visa to come back in.

[volgadon]

We are indeed a legal entity, but not sure if that is the same thing as "government approved".

It is. To operate in Russia, faiths must be recognised and registered as legal entities. Those who haven't are considered illicit and can be shut down, their personnel subjected to fines and prison sentences. This is the distinction that the law sets forth. Now, of course in practice the ROC will be given preferential treatment, but that is a different matter.

For example, the whole visa thing is pretty dicey -- they have to leave the country after a certain period of time, and then re-apply for a visa to come back in.

That is an issue with visas in general. When I served my mission in Russia, I had to go to Armenia, Estonia, and Ukraine for a day. Ukrainian missionaries have it worse than their American and European counterparts- they have to leave every three months. Once again, however, this has nothing to do with missionary status.

[volgadon]

It is said that when someone is " speaking in tongues" there should also be someone who gives an interpretation. Anyone feel so moved? Anyone ?

Russkaya Pravoslavnaya Tsyerkov = Russian Orthodox Church.

Svyatikh Poslednikh Dnyei = Latter-day Saints.

Zapadnyaya sekta = Western cult.

Istinnaya tsyerkov Iisusa Khrista = A true church of Jesus Christ.

Rossiiskaya Fyederatsiya = Russian Federation.

[cdowis]

It is. To operate in Russia, faiths must be recognised and registered as legal entities.

I think I already said that. In Germany there is an official list of "sects" which is separate from their legal status. (Elder Uchtdorf was instrumental in keeping us from that list). Russia may also have such a list which affects their treatment in the courts. There has been persecution of the church by the courts and the police in some smaller cities despite its legal status. The term "government approved" is rather vague, and may lend itself to interpretation outside the strict definition that you are using.

We are talking about the real world.

Those who haven't are considered illicit and can be shut down, their personnel subjected to fines and prison sentences. This is the distinction that the law sets forth. Now, of course in practice the ROC will be given preferential treatment, but that is a different matter.

Really? Even if the other churches are "legal" and should be treat equally under the law?

That is an issue with visas in general. When I served my mission in Russia, I had to go to Armenia, Estonia, and Ukraine for a day. Ukrainian missionaries have it worse than their American and European counterparts- they have to leave every three months. Once again, however, this has nothing to do with missionary status.

Yes, but it used to be much longer until the church figured out a procedure to get around the several weeks of delay. The missionaries left the country and it used to take several weeks or even months to get the return visa.

Anyway, I am concerned on how the law will be interpreted relative to the church -- the word "recognized", as simply legally recognized or something else more sinister. You are clearly more optimistic than I am.

[volgadon]

I think I already said that. In Germany there is an official list of "sects" which is separate from their legal status. (Elder Uchtdorf was instrumental in keeping us from that list). Russia may also have such a list which affects their treatment in the courts. There has been persecution of the church by the courts and the police in some smaller cities despite its legal status. The term "government approved" is rather vague, and may lend itself to interpretation outside the strict definition that you are using.

I looked it up in Russian and I was right, the current wording applies to all officially represented faiths, not just the traditional ones such as Orthodoxy, Islam, and Judaism. "В базе Госдумы опубликована таблица поправок в законопроект об оскорблении чувств верующих, рекомендованных к принятию во втором чтении. Из документа следует, что действие закона предполагается распространить на людей, исповедующих все представленные в России религии, а не только последователей культов, «составляющих неотъемлемую часть исторического наследия народов России», как предполагала редакция, одобренная Госдумой в первом чтении." http://news.mail.ru/politics/13145814/

We are talking about the real world.

The "real world" presupposes accurate information.

Really? Even if the other churches are "legal" and should be treat equally under the law?

You are preaching to the choir.

Yes, but it used to be much longer until the church figured out a procedure to get around the several weeks of delay. The missionaries left the country and it used to take several weeks or even months to get the return visa.

There are still hiccups from time to time, such as a big one in 2007, but again, visas in general are like that.

Anyway, I am concerned on how the law will be interpreted relative to the church -- the word "recognized", as simply legally recognized or something else more sinister. You are clearly more optimistic than I am.

No, just somewhat better informed in this matter.

[Nathair/|\]

From whom (who? can never remember which to use) are you hearing this?

You use "who" in the same circumstances where you would use "he" or "she" and "whom" where you would use "him" or "her."

"You learned it from whom?"

"I learned it from her."

"Who told you?"

"He told me."

[Calm]

Thank you, perhaps after 50ish years of being told the difference, this time it will stick.

[Stargazer]

Shawn McRaney says it when callers call in and say he shouldn't pick on the LDS. He said JS started it when he said all the Christian sects were an abomination to God.

Well, actually, JS didn't say that. The Lord Jesus Christ said it. Joseph simply repeated what he was told. Granted, the other Christian churches can argue that Joseph was making it up, but the same thing happened when Christ in mortality said the scribes and Pharisees were hypocrites. He wasn't very kind to do so (or so they might argue), but Christ had authority to say it. To argue with Joseph is to potentially argue with Christ Himself. Good luck with that, I say.

[cdowis]

No, just somewhat better informed in this matter.

The church has powerful enemies in Russia, both religious and political, and we have seen what has happened in other countries.

I fear this law will strengthen their hand.

But I do hope you are right and I am mistaken. That they really will support freedom of religion and leave the church alone. I guess we shall see.

[volgadon]

The church has powerful enemies in Russia, both religious and political, and we have seen what has happened in other countries.

I fear this law will strengthen their hand.

But I do hope you are right and I am mistaken. That they really will support freedom of religion and leave the church alone. I guess we shall see.

It is not that I am optimistic, or entertain any illusions of the church being loved by the government, but your prognostication simply doesn't match the facts. This law doesn't spell the end of missionary work in Russia- not even close. If we were to take it as accurate, then any member of the ROC could be fined for reading John 19 publicly, and Jews the same for several portions of the Passover.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

_{Thanks volgadon. I knew you would back me up. As for the grammar, I have just started to study the Russian language. Rather complex grammar especially in the case structures. Some things that I have been Reading in the Russian missionary blogs is that the government has really loosened up with us compared with other Christian groups.}

[Calm]

_{Some things that I have been Reading in the Russian missionary blogs is that the government has really loosened up with us compared with other Christian groups.}

Possibly because we are more centralized and thus are more predictable in what our members/missionaries will be likely to do. Get a small congregation that sends over a few missionaries that have no obligation to anyone else and it is harder to predict what they will likely do.

[tyler90az]

_{Some things that I have been Reading in the Russian missionary blogs is that the government has really loosened up with us compared with other Christian groups.}

That is a good sign

[volgadon]

_{Thanks volgadon. I knew you would back me up. As for the grammar, I have just started to study the Russian language. Rather complex grammar especially in the case structures. Some things that I have been Reading in the Russian missionary blogs is that the government has really loosened up with us compared with other Christian groups.}

I didn't know that there were Russian missionary blogs. Cool.

Russian grammar is a beast. My wife and I are currently helping a friend learn it, we almost feel sorry for him. =)

Have you seen the Russian "I am a Mormon" campaign? The first video features a friend of mine, my companion baptised him.

[The Nehor]

Shawn McRaney says it when callers call in and say he shouldn't pick on the LDS. He said JS started it when he said all the Christian sects were an abomination to God.

Actually Jesus was the one who said it but it was aimed at creeds not sects. It is almost as if he came to bring not peace but a sword. Oh well.....

[cdowis]

Here are some facts of which I am in possession.

Steniakina is leading the charge to change Russia’s legislation and ban Mormon missionaries from the nation. Though the number of Mormons living inside the country is small—around 400 foreign missionaries and 21,000 registered members at last count—they are a relatively visible presence in Russia’s larger cities. The missionaries hand out the Book of Mormon to those who might be interested, give free English lessons, and spend three hours a day cleaning public places or helping people around their homes.

Steniakina, who says the Latter-day Saints are a “totalitarian cult” sent by the FBI and the CIA “to fool and covert” unwitting Russians, is making her anti-Mormon campaign her top priority for the next political season. Specifically, she’s agitating to add language that would ban “the West [from converting] our citizens into non-traditional religions”—i.e. anything other than Orthodox Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Buddhism. She already has a seat in Moscow’s city hall, and she is certain Russia’s president Vladimir Putin will back her push, if it makes it all the way to the Duma.

It may not be such a hard sell. This past fall, Putin called on police to monitor “totalitarian sects” supposedly threatening Russia’s internal security. At a meeting at his Novo-Ogarevo residence last October, he also hinted that religious groups might have less-than-holy motives for attracting members. “This is not just a hunt for souls,” he intoned. “This is a hunt for people’s property.”

Putin’s words set off a brief spate of right-wing hate demonstrations against Mormon missionaries. Three days after Putin’s speech, the youth wing of the ruling United Russia party sent hecklers to parade in the streets with placards proclaiming “Mormons, goodbye!” and “CIA hacks!” (The church complained to Russian prosecutors that the Youth Guards were violating freedom-of-religion laws, but a spokesman said the investigation has gone nowhere.) Steniakina has also been known to tote around a large mock-up of an airline ticket—one way from Moscow to Washington—outside the church’s headquarters in the capital.

Steniakina’s campaign is the first official attack on Mormons in the church’s entire two-decade-long presence in Russia. Once, in the late 1990s, the church’s followers were accused of being spies in some regional papers, but the furor quickly died down. Moscow’s Latter-day Saints (LDS) leaders say they’re not particularly surprised by the protests—there are plenty of vocal critics back home in America, even in the LDS stronghold of Salt Lake City. They tend to see the backlash as part of a growing anti-American sentiment in Russia. “I think this is part of the general attack on American-funded NGOs—we became victims of an anti-foreign-agent campaign,” says Andrei Filimonov, the church’s spokesman in Russia.

For her part, Steniakina insists, “they do not deny their money is from the CIA or the FBI. Who else are they but foreign agents?” (“Of course we are neither agents nor spies,” says Filimonov. “We never speak to people about politics, our religion forbids that.”) In Steniakina’s zeal to oust the Mormons, she said she spent “a long time” studying the history of the LDS in Russia, and that she even sent one of her young colleagues to scout out the church’s center in Moscow. She also consulted with an official at the Russian Orthodox Church—Alexander Dvorkin, who is responsible for “anti-cult activity”—and says he confirmed to her that the Mormons were indeed a threat. (On his website and in a recent book, Dvorkin has called the Mormon church a “totalitarian sect” but says that “only a court can decide to disband it.”

LDS officials seem resigned to the fact that they’re viewed with suspicion in Russia. “We offer our help to kindergartens or schools, but their directors say, ‘No, thank you, we do not need any help from a sect,’” Filimonov says. He added that it’s been an uphill battle winning new members in Russia, and said that the lack of credible information about the LDS mission was to blame for the church’s stagnant membership figures in Russia over the past decade. Russian newspapers, he said, would only publish announcements of church meetings in exchange for money, which is not a practice the church engages in.

Rumors about the church are relatively common. Steniakina repeats many of them, including the charge that the LDS has been inflating its membership numbers. “We heard that, in the 1990s, Mormons paid for access to the names of deceased people and baptized some of them—so maybe most of their 21,000 activists are actually dead souls,” she says. A member of the church’s administration in Moscow, Marina Kharlamova, clarified the practice: “Indeed, I can baptize members of my deceased family to unite my family, so all members are together,” she says. “But we also believe that, for instance, my deceased grandmother, who is in heaven, has the right to decide whether she wants or does not want to join our church.”

‪Steniakina says that, if her proposed legislation succeeds, she does not know where believers would go once she kicks the “American sect” of out Russia. But that’s really not her problem. “It is time,” she says, “for American Mormons to pack up their bags and leave.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/12/09/russia-s-anti-mormon-campaign.html

[volgadon]

Steniakina, who says the Latter-day Saints are a “totalitarian cult” sent by the FBI and the CIA “to fool and covert” unwitting Russians, is making her anti-Mormon campaign her top priority for the next political season. Specifically, she’s agitating to add language that would ban “the West [from converting] our citizens into non-traditional religions”—i.e. anything other than Orthodox Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Buddhism. She already has a seat in Moscow’s city hall, and she is certain Russia’s president Vladimir Putin will back her push, if it makes it all the way to the Duma.

If you look at the more recent article which I linked to, you'll see that the language of the law proposal in question was revised to clarify that the non-traditional faiths are included in it. So, despite my concerns regarding Stenyakina (expressed in the previous thread), this law is manifestly not what you picture it being.

[The Nehor]

If you look at the more recent article which I linked to, you'll see that the language of the law proposal in question was revised to clarify that the non-traditional faiths are included in it. So, despite my concerns regarding Stenyakina (expressed in the previous thread), this law is manifestly not what you picture it being.

Count me as skeptical that the law will be applied as uniformly in practice as it is uniform on paper.

[volgadon]

Count me as skeptical that the law will be applied as uniformly in practice as it is uniform on paper.

Count me as skeptical that you have read where I said much the same thing.

[The Nehor]

Count me as skeptical that you have read where I said much the same thing.

Count me as skeptical that you realize that I was agreeing with you.

[volgadon]

Count me as skeptical that you realize that I was agreeing with you.

Touche. =)

[The Nehor]

Touche. =)

Should I take this as a skeptical touche?

[volgadon]

Should I take this as a skeptical touche?

I'm uncertain.

[Daniel2]

Empowering the government to treat religions differently or determine what is offensive is dangerous to any faith. What if I am offended that you go door to door teaching the Gospel? Then according to the Law, the government now has power to persecute people.

You miss the point of the law.

This has nothing to do with "offending anyone". I anticipate that it will be used as an excuse to bring legal persecution to the church because they are "offensive" with the doctrine of the Apostasy.

It is all about power and politics. It will be used as a tool to protect the established church.

But... It's not "discrimination" to treat different things differently, right...? Especially for the government to do so for the public good. And people (and their elected leaders) should have the right to legislate morality and discourage behaviors that are offensive... Right?

:-/

.....

I am reminded of the poem:

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;

Then they came for the gays, and I did not speak out—because I was not gay;

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for.

Daniel2