Half Truths About Polygamy... Not Again! Um Sorry.

EllenMaksoud · April 27, 2013

So, I stumbled into this video from "Time", and would like to know if there is any fact to it at all? I especially thought the bit about the Attorney General not prosecuting was interesting. To be clear, I have no issue with it at all as long as everyone is happy and no one is abused. Though 25 children, really? That's like 8 and 1/3 children each! Perhaps not so bad? So, don't wish to start any sort of ruction, can this be true?

http://www.time.com/time/video/player/0,32068,1754465091001_2120441,00.html

ERayR · April 27, 2013

All I could think of was Wow what a grocery bill.

Tacenda · April 27, 2013

So, I stumbled into this video from "Time", and would like to know if there is any fact to it at all? I especially thought the bit about the Attorney General not prosecuting was interesting. To be clear, I have no issue with it at all as long as everyone is happy and no one is abused. Though 25 children, really? That's like 8 and 1/3 children each! Perhaps not so bad? So, don't wish to start any sort of ruction, can this be true?
http://www.time.com/...2120441,00.html

All of it true, along with the Cody Brown family. I think one day polygamy will be legal, as we come closer to allowing SSA to marry, it's probably inevitable. I wonder if it will cause a schism in the church, and some will leave the church to live polygamy, if they believe that it's what will be needed to be exalted or to have salvation, or if they believe in the D & C 132, since it is commanded to live it and was only discontinued because Utah needed to be admitted as a state to the US.

EllenMaksoud · April 27, 2013

All I could think of was Wow what a grocery bill.

Yes, I think perhaps $2000 a month, perhaps?

EllenMaksoud · April 27, 2013

All of it true, along with the Cody Brown family. I think one day polygamy will be legal, as we come closer to allowing SSA to marry, it's probably inevitable. I wonder if it will cause a schism in the church, and some will leave the church to live polygamy, if they believe that it's what will be needed to be exalted or to have salvation, or if they believe in the D & C 132, since it is commanded to live it and was only discontinued because Utah needed to be admitted as a state to the US.

I do not know any woman who would agree to it, but if all are agreeable and they view their actions as pleasing to Heavenly Father ... Right now, I think the Federal government has bigger fish to fry.

ERayR · April 27, 2013

I do not know any woman who would agree to it, but if all are agreeable and they view their actions as pleasing to Heavenly Father ... Right now, I think the Federal government has bigger fish to fry.

It would certainly take special people to be successful polygamists. Is it something in your past experiences that influences your feelings about it?

Glenn101 · April 27, 2013

I don't know of any man in his right mind who would want to (a) be a bishop, and (b) have more than one wife at any one time in this mortal life. In my opinion, most men and women are not emotionally prepared for polygamy.

Just my two cents worth.

Glenn

rpn · April 27, 2013

I think that all of those who believe that the LDS church leaders failed to follow God when they stopped polygamy starting more than 100 years ago, have already left the LDS Church. And I doubt very much that the Lord will reinstitute polygamy. But there is no legal impediment at all to polygamous marriages once same sex marriage is accepted. The reason why Utahs attorney general is defending the anti-polygamy statute is that it can be a really useful tool when the community is so insular and secret that nothing else can hold people who do wicked things accountable. My reading of current caselaw (even apart from ss marriage) is that anti-polygamous statutes are unconstitutional already).

As for the grocery bill, there is evidence that many polygamist use government benefits. I suspect those families which are more modern and allow for women to work fair better --- after all they could have easy child care by divvying up the labor of the household, while freeing up most to earn money.

thesometimesaint · April 27, 2013

Here's an interesting tidbit, but not connected to polygamy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feodor_Vassilyev

As far as polygamy goes I have no desire for more than one wife in this life, and doubt if I were to survive her that I bother with remarriage.

EllenMaksoud · April 27, 2013

It would certainly take special people to be successful polygamists. Is it something in your past experiences that influences your feelings about it?

In my own opinion, I think that Heavenly Father would have an abandoned Mother with children to be taken in and allowed to be part of the family with or without conjugal rights. I have never met another woman who would want that in her marriage, but perchance if all concerned agreed that this was their purpose before Heavenly Father, who am I to object. This business about Celestial marriage I am not knowledgeable about. Let each man know that no matter who he says he is, Heavenly Father knows our innermost being.

I was Muslim before, so it is in the culture. However, a Muslim man who actually studied the Qur'an would recognize that it is the preference of Allah SWT that man have and care for one wife only. It was a later concession to men that Allah SWT permitted up to four wives in spite of the fact that his preference was one wife. Some men in Islam have deluded themselves into believing that the more wives he has, the better man he is. Sacfirallah !!! On that basis his actions are sin (Haram).

inquiringmind · April 27, 2013

...I wonder if it will cause a schism in the church, and some will leave the church to live polygamy, if they believe that it's what will be needed to be exalted or to have salvation, or if they believe in the D & C 132, since it is commanded to live it and was only discontinued because Utah needed to be admitted as a state to the US.

There's something here I've never been clear on.

I know you can be excommunicated from the LDS church for having more than one living wife at the same time, but is it still possible for a faithful member of the LDS Church to live D&C 132 by being sealed to more than one woman for eternity?

If a man outlives his wife, and he was sealed to her for eternity, can't he still be sealed to someone else for eternity, and doesn't that give him more than one wife?

Does he have to have more than one wife to receive his exaltation?

And can he be sealed to a woman on the other side of the veil while his wife is still living?

Edited April 27, 2013 by inquiringmind

Stargazer · April 27, 2013

I don't know of any man in his right mind who would want to (a) be a bishop, and (b) have more than one wife at any one time in this mortal life. In my opinion, most men and women are not emotionally prepared for polygamy.
Just my two cents worth.
Glenn

I have a hard enough time keeping ONE wife happy. A second one would be worse than I can imagine, because I expect that they would gang up on me. I'd never get a moment's peace. Can you imagine the Honey-Do list? I think I would have to get a second job, not to afford them, but just to find time AWAY from them.

I'd rather be a bishop, I think.

EllenMaksoud · April 27, 2013

I have a hard enough time keeping ONE wife happy. A second one would be worse than I can imagine, because I expect that they would gang up on me. I'd never get a moment's peace. Can you imagine the Honey-Do list? I think I would have to get a second job, not to afford them, but just to find time AWAY from them.
I'd rather be a bishop, I think.

Well, remember, I write Science Fiction so I have an imagination that takes me strange places. Perhaps that is why I struggle so much with wanting real Islam to be better than it is. Still, imagine a situation where great numbers of our men are either not here or are dead. (1849 or 2020) Imagine that Earth finally died, we killed the Gaia permanently. So, most of the men are fighting off the Muslims or the Chinese while the rest of us finish building a ship to colonize a planet like earth, or Pandora. We get off but most of the men are killed leaving us with a population imbalance of 4:1, guess which is the 1. So, we get to our new home. We know that our enemies will follow us but not for 50 or so years. We find that the new planet is fertile and hospitable to Humans. (More than we deserve) Perhaps we even name it Deseret? I think this scenario sets up a clear and urgent need to produce as many more humans as possible as quickly as possible, our very survival is at stake. I leave the rest up to your imagination, what would you do?

Oh my gosh ! I've just written the introduction to my next story!

Edited April 28, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

inquiringmind · April 28, 2013

...I wonder if it will cause a schism in the church, and some will leave the church to live polygamy, if they believe that it's what will be needed to be exalted or to have salvation, or if they believe in the D & C 132, since it is commanded to live it and was only discontinued because Utah needed to be admitted as a state to the US.

There's something here I've never been clear on.

I know you can be excommunicated from the LDS church for having more than one living wife at the same time, but is it still possible for a faithful member of the LDS Church to live D&C 132 by being sealed to more than one woman for eternity?

If a man outlives his wife, and he was sealed to her for eternity, can't he still be sealed to someone else for eternity, and doesn't that give him more than one wife?

Does he have to have more than one wife to receive his exaltation?

And can he be sealed to a woman on the other side of the veil while his wife is still living?

Saints Alive · April 28, 2013

I can Imagine a situation where I could live happily in a polygamous lifestyle, not that I would ever pursue such a relationship however. A lot depends on the people involved, their level of comfort with it, etc. If polygamy ever were to be legal I think that it should require the signed consent of all members involved.

Saints Alive · April 28, 2013

There's something here I've never been clear on.
I know you can be excommunicated from the LDS church for having more than one living wife at the same time, but is it still possible for a faithful member of the LDS Church to live D&C 132 by being sealed to more than one woman for eternity?
If a man outlives his wife, and he was sealed to her for eternity, can't he still be sealed to someone else for eternity, and doesn't that give him more than one wife?
Does he have to have more than one wife to receive his exaltation?
And can he be sealed to a woman on the other side of the veil while his wife is still living?

My understanding of D&C 132 is that only those called to live "the principal" required more than one wife to receive exaltation. I believe that calling had to come from the Prophet or atleast someone in leadership, i.e. no personal revelation on this one.

inquiringmind · April 28, 2013

My understanding of D&C 132 is that only those called to live "the principal" required more than one wife to receive exaltation. I believe that calling had to come from the Prophet or atleast someone in leadership, i.e. no personal revelation on this one.

Thank you.

And if you have a living wife to whom you've been sealed for time and eternity, could you be sealed to another wife who's already on the other side of the veil (perhaps someone that you or your wife knew, who died before she could marry)?

Edited April 28, 2013 by inquiringmind

Stargazer · April 28, 2013

There's something here I've never been clear on.
I know you can be excommunicated from the LDS church for having more than one living wife at the same time, but is it still possible for a faithful member of the LDS Church to live D&C 132 by being sealed to more than one woman for eternity?
If a man outlives his wife, and he was sealed to her for eternity, can't he still be sealed to someone else for eternity, and doesn't that give him more than one wife?
Does he have to have more than one wife to receive his exaltation?
And can he be sealed to a woman on the other side of the veil while his wife is still living?

You've been poking around here for HOW long and you still don't know the answer to this question?

"... is it still possible for a faithful member of the LDS Church to live D&C 132 by being sealed to more than one woman for eternity?"

Of course it is.

"If a man outlives his wife, and he was sealed to her for eternity, can't he still be sealed to someone else for eternity, and doesn't that give him more than one wife?"

Yes and no. The prohibition is on living in plural marriage in this life. A man sealed to a deceased wife is not practicing plural marriage if he is sealed to another wife in life. A brother who is currently in my stake's presidency lost his wife to cancer after 20 years of marriage back in 1989. They were sealed in the temple. He remarried and was sealed to the second wife. He has two wives, therefore, but only one in this life. In fact, his first wife picked his second wife out for him -- a very touching story, incidentally.

"Does he have to have more than one wife to receive his exaltation?"

No. Some have thought so, but this is not true.

"And can he be sealed to a woman on the other side of the veil while his wife is still living?"

You mean, can the sealing be performed in that case? I don't know why not. Imagine a situation where he was married but never sealed to his first wife, and she died. He then remarried, and only then found the Church. I don't see why he couldn't be sealed to both of them, the second wife being willing. I've never heard of a case like that, but it doesn't sound unreasonable.

A member of my ward was engaged to be married long before she joined the Church, but her fiancee was killed in an auto accident. Many years later, after joining the Church, she applied for permission from the First Presidency to be sealed to him, and she was. She had been married to someone else in the interim, but that marriage had ended in divorce.

ERayR · April 28, 2013

In my own opinion, I think that Heavenly Father would have an abandoned Mother with children to be taken in and allowed to be part of the family with or without conjugal rights. I have never met another woman who would want that in her marriage, but perchance if all concerned agreed that this was their purpose before Heavenly Father, who am I to object. This business about Celestial marriage I am not knowledgeable about. Let each man know that no matter who he says he is, Heavenly Father knows our innermost being.
I was Muslim before, so it is in the culture. However, a Muslim man who actually studied the Qur'an would recognize that it is the preference of Allah SWT that man have and care for one wife only. It was a later concession to men that Allah SWT permitted up to four wives in spite of the fact that his preference was one wife. Some men in Islam have deluded themselves into believing that the more wives he has, the better man he is. Sacfirallah !!! On that basis his actions are sin (Haram).

It is also in the Book of Mormon that one wife is the preferred status but when God commands polygamy is permitted.

ERayR · April 28, 2013

Well, remember, I write Science Fiction so I have an imagination that takes me strange places. Perhaps that is why I struggle so much with wanting real Islam to be better than it is. Still, imagine a situation where great numbers of our men are either not here or are dead. (1849 or 2020) Imagine that Earth finally died, we killed the Gaia permanently. So, most of the men are fighting off the Muslims or the Chinese while the rest of us finish building a ship to colonize a planet like earth, or Pandora. We get off but most of the men are killed leaving us with a population imbalance of 4:1, guess which is the 1. So, we get to our new home. We know that our enemies will follow us but not for 50 or so years. We find that the new planet is fertile and hospitable to Humans. (More than we deserve) Perhaps we even name it Deseret? I think this scenario sets up a clear and urgent need to produce as many more humans as possible as quickly as possible, our very survival is at stake. I leave the rest up to your imagination, what would you do?
Oh my gosh ! I've just written the introduction to my next story!

Sounds interesting. It could be a great analysis of personalities and interpersonal relationships. I occasionally write short stories for my family and myself. The only thing I have published is my masters thesis.

inquiringmind · April 28, 2013

You've been poking around here for HOW long and you still don't know the answer to this question?
"... is it still possible for a faithful member of the LDS Church to live D&C 132 by being sealed to more than one woman for eternity?"
Of course it is.
"If a man outlives his wife, and he was sealed to her for eternity, can't he still be sealed to someone else for eternity, and doesn't that give him more than one wife?"
Yes and no. The prohibition is on living in plural marriage in this life. A man sealed to a deceased wife is not practicing plural marriage if he is sealed to another wife in life. A brother who is currently in my stake's presidency lost his wife to cancer after 20 years of marriage back in 1989. They were sealed in the temple. He remarried and was sealed to the second wife. He has two wives, therefore, but only one in this life. In fact, his first wife picked his second wife out for him -- a very touching story, incidentally.
"Does he have to have more than one wife to receive his exaltation?"
No. Some have thought so, but this is not true.
"And can he be sealed to a woman on the other side of the veil while his wife is still living?"
You mean, can the sealing be performed in that case? I don't know why not. Imagine a situation where he was married but never sealed to his first wife, and she died. He then remarried, and only then found the Church. I don't see why he couldn't be sealed to both of them, the second wife being willing. I've never heard of a case like that, but it doesn't sound unreasonable.
A member of my ward was engaged to be married long before she joined the Church, but her fiancee was killed in an auto accident. Many years later, after joining the Church, she applied for permission from the First Presidency to be sealed to him, and she was. She had been married to someone else in the interim, but that marriage had ended in divorce.

So it is still possible for a faithful member of the LDS Church to have more than one wife (as long as he's not living with both of them here in mortality.)

One of my questions was if a man has to have more than one wife to receive his exaltation, and you said

"No. Some have thought so, but this is not true."

But D&C 132 says:

Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many ^awives and ^bconcubines—
2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
3 Therefore, ^aprepare thy heart to receive and ^bobey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132.27?lang=eng

So how do you know you don't need more than one wife to be exalted?

I know there have been living prophets who have said you can't have more than one living wife now, but have any ever said that you didn't need a sum total of more than one to progress on the other side of the veil?

Did any ever say that being sealed to one (living) wife in the Temple is enough?

rpn · April 28, 2013

The census of 1849 doesn't support the view that there weren't enough men in Utah. (Now the total numbers may not reflect men who could be good husbands, or men who matched up with the right ages, or men who could afford wives because they had the resources and skills to do so, or a whole host of issues. But the sheer numbers were not disparate.)

And as for your story, there is no evidence that polygamy was FOR THE PURPOSE of raising up children or church membership numbers.

EllenMaksoud · April 28, 2013

Sounds interesting. It could be a great analysis of personalities and interpersonal relationships. I occasionally write short stories for my family and myself. The only thing I have published is my masters thesis.

I wrote a theisis but it was not mine, LOL. I'll never write one of my own. Life is good now.

ERayR · April 28, 2013

There's something here I've never been clear on.
I know you can be excommunicated from the LDS church for having more than one living wife at the same time, but is it still possible for a faithful member of the LDS Church to live D&C 132 by being sealed to more than one woman for eternity? The short answer would be yes with some qualifications.
If a man outlives his wife, and he was sealed to her for eternity, can't he still be sealed to someone else for eternity, and doesn't that give him more than one wife? See above.
Does he have to have more than one wife to receive his exaltation? Emphatic no.
And can he be sealed to a woman on the other side of the veil while his wife is still living? Yes. In a case where a man outlived his first wife and then joined the church or became active with his second wife. He could then do the temple ordinances for his first wife, including the sealing.

ERayR · April 28, 2013

The census of 1849 doesn't support the view that there weren't enough men in Utah. (Now the total numbers may not reflect men who could be good husbands, or men who matched up with the right ages, or men who could afford wives because they had the resources and skills to do so, or a whole host of issues. But the sheer numbers were not disparate.)
And as for your story, there is no evidence that polygamy was FOR THE PURPOSE of raising up children or church membership numbers.

It's a SciFi plot for goodness sake. Lighten up.

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