Dismantling Hell In Order To Build Heaven

[Questing Beast]

Looking around the congregation yesterday I was reminded by appearances only (quite sufficient, thank you) that even the LDS people are mired in their own private hell. Mainly health problems-related, and mainly insufficient will power applied to their appetites, which is like a plague in this day and age. I saw a young man who I have not seen inside the church for well over ten years. He sat at the end of the pew I was on, and after nodding to him in greeting, I averted my eyes. If I had tried to talk to him it would have been painfully obvious that I was noticing how enormous his paunch has become. As a teen he was always tending to fat. Now his otherwise normal sized body is attached to this huge gut that looks no less than as a bag fastened to the front of his torso; his arms rested on it as if he had an over-stuffed Duffle on his lap. He looked ill. He is living in a hell of his own making.

My mind wandered since then over the myriad evidences all around me of people creating their own hell. And I was reminded of the absolute truth that God does not give to us what we already have the power to give to ourselves. We have the knowledge and the free will, what more is required? Determination to cast out the unclean spirits is lacking. Even when we individually cast out the unclean spirit of weakness and addiction, and our "house is swept clean and garnished", we do not feel cleansed and healed, but wander listlessly, bereft of our beloved addictions, then we return to our "house" and take unto ourselves seven other unclean spirits, more powerful than the first, and our condition is worse than at the first. So it is with this unclean generation, even the LDS people, who are hardly less worse off than the rest. Yet we call ourselves a delightful people, a peculiar people and treasure of our God, compared to the rest of the world. And health fades daily and sicknesses multiply upon us and we change nothing about our hell, and heaven is further away than it ever was before in this world.

The only way that heaven is going to come to this world is when we create it. J.R.R. Tolkien's vision of the "preexistence" (in the Silmarillion) is very LDS-like but far more insightful where we are concerned. The various levels of "angels" created by Iluvatar sang with him in the creation hymn, and were amazed and distressed when they were through singing, to find that the wondrous world they had seen was only in the song and that all the work had yet to be done. So it is with us. We "sing" but if we do not work there will be no heavenly world. When we work on ourselves first, and cast out the unclean spirits, and do not replace them with seven other unclean spirits stronger than the first, then do not return to our "house", but rather turn to our work of making this world a heaven, then we will have heaven and there will be no hell....

Edited April 22, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Maidservant]

Bingo.

[Duncan]

story of my life

[CASteinman]

Questing Beast -- I really like this post. While there are some sentiments in it I agree with most importantly I like what looks to me to be compassion.

We all have our struggles. It is a part of this life.

[wenglund]

Chocolate is heaven.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Questing Beast]

Thanks for the sympathetic responses, I was saddened, a bit, that my observations had seemed to fall to the ground without notice.

It is what I dwell on almost constantly, and the feeling of impotence "being there" (here) is very enervating of the soul. I cannot have Joy when so many around me are not pursuing it, but something bastardized or counter to Joy. Words fail, so I seldom resort to them, as in the case of the young man I mentioned. There is only example, and then waiting to enter into a (hopefully) helpful dialogue if someone sees the example and asks questions. But other than caring, and offering the time to answer, I can't see anything that can be done to alleviate the hell of anybody....

[Maidservant]

It is true that we must pass through hell (descend below all things) and that that is (part of) what we are doing here on the (mortal) earth.

However, while we should love and help where we can (without running faster than we are able), in the end pity is not necessary.

I am constantly pondering about the relationship of my suffering in connection with my relationship with my heavenly Father and/or God and I have had some lens changes or faint whisperings of lenses that might change in my understanding or paradigm.

Our weaknesses are gifts. The weaknesses are inseparable from the treasures (some might say 'strengths' but I prefer 'treasure'). Since heavenly Father does want that gentleman to enjoy health, he gave him a weakness. Now, please don't misunderstand me. I don't think heavenly Father lined us up in the pre-existence and said 'Here you go. Here's your box of trials. Present from me.' Maybe something along those lines happened (i.e. direct planning by ourselves and our priesthood leaders in preparation for this mortality), but I tend to think not. I tend to think it is happens more organically or naturally--we just ARE. Earth life with it tutoring of loss and death just IS. We rise from death.

For example, precisely because I began life as such a poor parent, I have struggled and struggled and struggled--that path was my life because first I was weak, and that weakness was the path, to become a much better parent. Every moment of joyful parenting is precious beyond compare because of what I had to go through to receive it. I have knowledge. No one can remove it from me.

One of those kinds of things that has always stuck in my brain and I probably got it wrong, but nevertheless, I remember it and it informs my paradigm--I heard or read something like this: "The dryest desert is the most full of rain." Why? Because the rain is in potential (spiritually), and were someone or something to access that potential, there would be a lot waiting since up to that point it had never transversed into material existence. What you see when you see that young man is a human being positively laden with potential for health.

One element of my pondering and struggle is--how can my suffering be part of God's love for me? It's hard to imagine that and I think many may reply here and disagree emphatically. But this is one of those whispering lenses that I'm not sure I can articulate but I will try, and maybe it will at least help me:

Earth life with it's yin and yang of suffering and joy is the robe that my Father and God and Beloved is anointing me with. He loves me beyond breathing, and so he robes me, places jewels on me, gives me riches beyond words. And what is that robe, those jewels, riches, anointing? What is it that my Beloved is giving me because nothing else will do for me, this One That He Loves?

The robe, the anointing IS my sorrows, my suffering, my pains, my weaknesses--my knowledge.

[ERayR]

Looking around the congregation yesterday I was reminded by appearances only (quite sufficient, thank you) that even the LDS people are mired in their own private hell. Mainly health problems-related, and mainly insufficient will power applied to their appetites, which is like a plague in this day and age. I saw a young man who I have not seen inside the church for well over ten years. He sat at the end of the pew I was on, and after nodding to him in greeting, I averted my eyes. If I had tried to talk to him it would have been painfully obvious that I was noticing how enormous his paunch has become. As a teen he was always tending to fat. Now his otherwise normal sized body is attached to this huge gut that looks no less than as a bag fastened to the front of his torso; his arms rested on it as if he had an over-stuffed Duffle on his lap. He looked ill. He is living in a hell of his own making.

My mind wandered since then over the myriad evidences all around me of people creating their own hell. And I was reminded of the absolute truth that God does not give to us what we already have the power to give to ourselves. We have the knowledge and the free will, what more is required? Determination to cast out the unclean spirits is lacking. Even when we individually cast out the unclean spirit of weakness and addiction, and our "house is swept clean and garnished", we do not feel cleansed and healed, but wander listlessly, bereft of our beloved addictions, then we return to our "house" and take unto ourselves seven other unclean spirits, more powerful than the first, and our condition is worse than at the first. So it is with this unclean generation, even the LDS people, who are hardly less worse off than the rest. Yet we call ourselves a delightful people, a peculiar people and treasure of our God, compared to the rest of the world. And health fades daily and sicknesses multiply upon us and we change nothing about our hell, and heaven is further away than it ever was before in this world.

The only way that heaven is going to come to this world is when we create it. J.R.R. Tolkien's vision of the "preexistence" (in the Silmarillion) is very LDS-like but far more insightful where we are concerned. The various levels of "angels" created by Iluvatar sang with him in the creation hymn, and were amazed and distressed when they were through singing, to find that the wondrous world they had seen was only in the song and that all the work had yet to be done. So it is with us. We "sing" but if we do not work there will be no heavenly world. When we work on ourselves first, and cast out the unclean spirits, and do not replace them with seven other unclean spirits stronger than the first, then do not return to our "house", but rather turn to our work of making this world a heaven, then we will have heaven and there will be no hell....

Thank you for not being judgmental. While there is a goodly number whose obesity and health problems are caused by will power there is also a goodly number whose obesity is caused by health problems. Such things as thyroid problems and in my case degenerative disks in my upper and lower spine making physical activity very difficult and sometimes painful. In my own case I would say you probably eat more for breakfast than I do all day. I realize I could just refrain from eating altogether however do you know what hunger pains feel like?

I write this only to let you know that before you condemn someone to harshly it might be a good idea to have an understanding of what they deal with on a daily basis. God bless you in your efforts to be kind and thoughtful to those whose problems you haven't a clue.

[pogi]

Even when we individually cast out the unclean spirit of weakness and addiction, and our "house is swept clean and garnished", we do not feel cleansed and healed, but wander listlessly, bereft of our beloved addictions, then we return to our "house" and take unto ourselves seven other unclean spirits, more powerful than the first, and our condition is worse than at the first. So it is with this unclean generation, even the LDS people, who are hardly less worse off than the rest. Yet we call ourselves a delightful people, a peculiar people and treasure of our God, compared to the rest of the world. And health fades daily and sicknesses multiply upon us and we change nothing about our hell, and heaven is further away than it ever was before in this world.

You have identified what happens when the superficial behaviors of addiction are addressed without considering the driving forces. Until the core of addiction is attended to, one will simply jump from one addiction to another, never feeling "cleansed and healed". The greatest plague of the human soul which Satan introduced in the Garden of Eden is shame. It is what binds us to him with his awful chains in fear of exposure to the Lord because we are naked. Shame is the fuel which drives all addiction and codependent behaviors. Overcome shame and you overcome hell.

People are so consumed with battling their external, superficial behaviors that they never address the real problem, their hearts. People rarely have the courage to go deep inside the dark corners of their soul to read the writings on the fleshy tablets of their hearts. This is the battle ground of good and evil. It is not in external behaviors but in internal beliefs of self and others.

[pogi]

Thanks for the sympathetic responses, I was saddened, a bit, that my observations had seemed to fall to the ground without notice.

It is what I dwell on almost constantly, and the feeling of impotence "being there" (here) is very enervating of the soul. I cannot have Joy when so many around me are not pursuing it, but something bastardized or counter to Joy. Words fail, so I seldom resort to them, as in the case of the young man I mentioned. There is only example, and then waiting to enter into a (hopefully) helpful dialogue if someone sees the example and asks questions. But other than caring, and offering the time to answer, I can't see anything that can be done to alleviate the hell of anybody....

The part in bold is only true because you believe it. You talked about heaven as something that you need to create, this is true, but it is not done by changing others. This is a very co-dependent approach to life that will leave you feeling powerless and hopeless. You don't need to solve everybody else's problems for them, to do so would strip them of the opportunity for real growth and understanding.

[Avatar4321]

The part in bold is only true because you believe it. You talked about heaven as something that you need to create, this is true, but it is not done by changing others. This is a very co-dependent approach to life that will leave you feeling powerless and hopeless. You don't need to solve everybody else's problems for them, to do so would strip them of the opportunity for real growth and understanding.

You cannot fix there problems, but that doesn't mean you can't minister to them. That doesnt mean you can't serve them. Or exhort them to go to the source of their solutions, our Father and our Brother

Christ changes us on the inside and we can do anything.

[tyler90az]

I cannot have Joy when so many around me are not pursuing it, but something bastardized or counter to Joy.

You can be compassionate to the plights of others and still be happy. Let that compassion turn to action. Then you can have great joy knowing you are helping. Anything that tells you to not be happy for a prolonged period of time is an unclean spirit. Men are that they might have joy. Lift your head up brother we have work to do and need you at full strength.

[BCSpace]

Elder Holland did tell us in Stake Conference this year that God likes broken things.

[pogi]

You cannot fix there problems, but that doesn't mean you can't minister to them. That doesnt mean you can't serve them. Or exhort them to go to the source of their solutions, our Father and our Brother

Christ changes us on the inside and we can do anything.

I wasn't implying that we shouldn't minister to others and exhort them to Christ. That is very different from a codependent approach where you choose not to be happy because of other peoples choices. Obviously we love, serve, and support others - not because our happiness depends on their healing, but because our happiness is dependent on our loving them regardless of the choices they make. Any other approach is not genuine and is motivated out of self interest when you boil it down.

Edited April 25, 2013 by pogi

[pogi]

One more point. I don't believe in dismantling hell in order to build heaven. You cannot dismantle darkness in order to create light, or you cannot escape darkness without stepping into the light. The only way to get rid of the darkness is to open the blinds and let the light in. This is a terrifying process for most of us as the light is often far more scary than the darkness. We become comfortable in hiding, in isolation, in darkness. We know what to expect and have developed effective coping mechanisms (addictions) for the lack of intimacy with ourselves, others, and the Lord. One must have the courage to step out of the shadows of the bushes in all of our nakedness and proclaim with Adam, "here I am Lord." The darkness will run in terror from the light. We spend way too much time and effort battling our demons and not near enough time embracing our angels.

[Questing Beast]

...

I write this only to let you know that before you condemn someone to harshly it might be a good idea to have an understanding of what they deal with on a daily basis. God bless you in your efforts to be kind and thoughtful to those whose problems you haven't a clue.

I remember as a child that obesity was remarkably rare. Mild overweight problems were commonplace. Pictures of my parents' generation (the Depression kids) show crowds of people all "skinny", that is to say, properly suited weight to height with the extremely rare body that shows extra weight. Why the difference, then and now? You speak of health problems contributing to the condition, but that is surely in most cases a cyclical cause and effect. Kids eat like crap these days, in school, after school on weekends, i.e. all the time. They develop early onset of diabetes and skeletal dysfunction, etc. Then arriving at adulthood they are unfit for further weight and their spines break down or other ligament and joint issues crop up and so forth. Weight gain then becomes impossible to avoid because exercise is too onerous to be reasonable, and so the spiral into a shortened life of decreasing health is their fate. I mentioned only this single issue, this plague, of obesity, because it prompted my thoughts again, being so prevalent in society today. But other, worse conditions than physical health, bother me far more. Our society is sick on so many levels, and it has always been so, but worse today in many ways than before; violence is endemic in our culture, even while we ironically deny our entertainment and decry its literal presence whenever a shooter goes on a rampage, etc. Children are force-fed a steady diet of "entertainment" that is productive of the most debilitating soul disease, then medicated against their resulting mood swings and "depression". I (anybody) could go on. Hell will not be dismantled until we face the truth and fix ourselves. God does not need to heal us. We simply need to reject the "evil gifts and the unclean things"....

[Questing Beast]

The part in bold is only true because you believe it. You talked about heaven as something that you need to create, this is true, but it is not done by changing others. This is a very co-dependent approach to life that will leave you feeling powerless and hopeless. You don't need to solve everybody else's problems for them, to do so would strip them of the opportunity for real growth and understanding.

I know that. But living in the world of miserable people is undeniably trying. I focus on the real world of immortality, and only "role-play" here. That disconnection is a survival technique, because life, though seeming short looking on the past, is plenty in the present and seems interminable looking into the future. Another paradigm I favor is that the world is improving all the time, that people on the whole are improving themselves and our world, despite the setbacks that occur....

[Questing Beast]

Elder Holland did tell us in Stake Conference this year that God likes broken things.

Context might be useful here....

[Questing Beast]

One more point. I don't believe in dismantling hell in order to build heaven. You cannot dismantle darkness in order to create light, or you cannot escape darkness without stepping into the light. The only way to get rid of the darkness is to open the blinds and let the light in. This is a terrifying process for most of us as the light is often far more scary than the darkness. We become comfortable in hiding, in isolation, in darkness. We know what to expect and have developed effective coping mechanisms (addictions) for the lack of intimacy with ourselves, others, and the Lord. One must have the courage to step out of the shadows of the bushes in all of our nakedness and proclaim with Adam, "here I am Lord." The darkness will run in terror from the light. We spend way too much time and effort battling our demons and not near enough time embracing our angels.

"Dismantling", to be more clear, is referring to denying ourselves evil and unclean "gifts" offered, and accepting reality instead. You break down your personal hell be being true to your inner light and "turning it up" through pursuing the truth about yourself. Heaven increases and hell decreases in direct relation. That's what "dismantling hell" means....

[Questing Beast]

You can be compassionate to the plights of others and still be happy. Let that compassion turn to action. Then you can have great joy knowing you are helping. Anything that tells you to not be happy for a prolonged period of time is an unclean spirit. Men are that they might have joy. Lift your head up brother we have work to do and need you at full strength.

Is anybody ever at "full strength"? That seems impossible here. We all labor under a load of weaknesses, some of them will eventually kill us, for no one is intended to stay in this place very long. I have a measure of joy in doing right things. There is no joy whatsoever in doing wrong things. A little trial and error, hopefully when very young, will prove this to be true, and the wiser person will not require "vacations" from doing/being good in order to test each temptation through further, useless experience. Those who are not convinced that good never changes are addicted to the pleasure rush of self-indulgence and will return to their "vomit" like the proverbial dogs....

[pogi]

"Dismantling", to be more clear, is referring to denying ourselves evil and unclean "gifts" offered, and accepting reality instead. You break down your personal hell be being true to your inner light and "turning it up" through pursuing the truth about yourself. Heaven increases and hell decreases in direct relation. That's what "dismantling hell" means....

I see, I like that!

[tyler90az]

Is anybody ever at "full strength"? That seems impossible here. We all labor under a load of weaknesses, some of them will eventually kill us, for no one is intended to stay in this place very long. I have a measure of joy in doing right things. There is no joy whatsoever in doing wrong things. A little trial and error, hopefully when very young, will prove this to be true, and the wiser person will not require "vacations" from doing/being good in order to test each temptation through further, useless experience. Those who are not convinced that good never changes are addicted to the pleasure rush of self-indulgence and will return to their "vomit" like the proverbial dogs....

If we draw onto the atonement we are at full strength. The atonement is what makes us whole. To rely on ourselves is great folly and will weaken us. Which is the problem most people including especially me fail to draw unto the atonement in all things.

The full strength I was referring to in regards to my last post is being your best self. We can not be our best self if we are judging which leads to being weighed down by the plights other people face. Judge a righteous judgement which is one that leads to action.

One of my favorite quotes

“If you have fear of some pain or suffering, you should examine whether there is anything you can do about it. If you can, there is no need to worry about it; if you cannot do anything, then there is also no need to worry.” Dali Lama

[BCSpace]

Elder Holland did tell us in Stake Conference this year that God likes broken things.

Context might be useful here....

The context was very similar to the first paragraph in your OP. God loves you, wants to fix you, and there is nothing He can't fix, don't complain that your problems are special compared to everyone else's, etc. was the gist.

Edited April 26, 2013 by BCSpace