One Day To A Cubit - Mormon Interpreter Article

[urroner]

I don't know how I missed it, but I just noticed this article today, but it's been out there since the middle of February

This is a nifty little article that talks about the meaning of the phrase "one day to a cubit" used in the Book of Abraham when astronomy is being discussed.

As is mentioned in the article, who knows what in the heck does this little saying mean?. I've read that little phrase many, many times, not having the foggiest idea what it means and I used to be a astrophysics major for a time many years ago. Now I'm just an engineer.

Hollis R. Johnson wrote the article and he's a real astrophysicist. He's even has a PhD in it.

He has come up with a great interpretation for the saying. He says that a cubit, in ancient times, was not only a linear length, from the elbow to the fingertip, but it was also used as a measurement for about 1 degree of arc and he explains why.

http://www.mormonint...day-to-a-cubit/

With the extended perspective that a cubit is an angle of a degree, the curious phrase one day to a cubit from the Book of Abraham describes precisely the movement of the brightest celestial object—the sun. As seen from earth, each day the sun travels one degree eastward with respect to the background stars and constellations. Ancient scholars would have stated that each day the sun travels one cubit. One day to a cubit!

[CASteinman]

That is strange. I shall have to read that. I always thought of it as some sort of space-time relationship.

[Robert F. Smith]

That is strange. I shall have to read that. I always thought of it as some sort of space-time relationship.

You may be right, Steinman, as pointed out in the comment section following Prof. Johnson's short article:

John A. Tvedtnes on February 16, 2013 at 1:22 pm

said:

Back in the late 1950s, University of Utah Prof. Melvin Cook noted that the “one day to a cubit” of Abraham Fac. 1 Fig. 1 made sense in Einsteinian terms. I.e., as one approaches the speed of light, time becomes distance and vice-versa. Hence, God, who must travel faster than the speed of light (not possible according to Einstein) would experience such a shift and could therefore be, during his travels, everywhere at the same time, and see past, present, and future (D&C 38:2; 88:41; 130:6-7). Using the Lawrence-Fitzgerald transformation formula (intended to explain how much distance equates to how much time & vice-versa), Cook noted that the 1,000 years of a Kolob day came to 18 cm., a handspan. He discussed this in his 1967 book, Science and Mormonism.

John A. Tvedtnes

Roger Loomis

on February 19, 2013 at 5:59 pm said:

According to Einstein, there is a speed at which God could travel that would cause 1,000 years to us to appear as one day to Him. Specifically, that speed is 99.9999999992494% of the speed of light.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

My own take on Dr. Johnson's article (which I submitted to Interpreter last Feb 18) is as follows:

Book of Abraham 3:9-10, 16, and facsimile 2:1 say that Kolob, the greatest of the stars (Hebrew Kokaubeam), signifies "the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God," that Kolob is "[f]irst in government," and "the last pertaining to the measurement of time," which means "one day to a cubit" (= thousand years in Earth/Jah-oh-eh time) in "celestial time," which, according to facsimile 2:2, 4, is the same time-reckoning as at Oliblish and at God's throne/ residence. Three realms: Where are they?

The gist and implications of astronomer Hollis R. Johnson’s brief comments in the most recent Interpreter were that planet Earth travels at 29.8 kilometers per second around the Sun on a elliptical orbit describing 1̊ of arc per day (2.5 million km per day), while the Sun itself moves around the Milky Way galactic center at perhaps 220 km per second (140 mps), on a 240 million year journey-cycle. At the same time, the Sun, Moon, and planets move through the twelve signs of the Zodiac at the rate of about one degree (ki) per day, or 30 degrees per zodiacal sign, through the annual 360̊ ecliptic – an ancient Mesopotamian concept.

More to the point is the question: Where would one celestial day pass while a thousand years passed here on Earth? What principle would allow time to be so relatively slow there and so fast here? Does physics (astrophysics) know of such a phenomenon? What of the time-dilation principle of Einsteinian mechanics at very high velocities or very high gravity? Anyhow, was celestial time actually measured in cubits in the ancient Near East?

One might account for such a time differential via the Lorentz-Fitzgerald contraction of time in Einsteinian mechanics (the Special Theory of Relativity, perhaps allied with the Aristotelian and Stoic concept of Zeus Ouranios = Jupiter summus exsuperantissimus) at the edge of the known universe with the quasars, or in the midst of our own Milky Way Galaxy and within its super-massive Black Hole. Egyptian “astronomy” – if one may speak of such a thing! – has little to offer, and our attention ought to be directed to the use of the cubit as an astronomical measure in Abraham’s Mesopotamia. Indeed, Marvin Powell has noted how the Sumero-Akkadian cubit was used “in the calculation of celestial distances” in the ancient Near East as late as the Seleucid period. And, in a cuneiform text from ancient Boghazköy, Anatolia, we read "when the day has 'turned' two cubits." Powell adds that, during the 1st millennium B.C., the Sumero-Akkadian 1/30 cubit measure (šu-si, ubanu “finger” @ about 1⅔ cm) represented 1/5 of the apparent diameter of the sun, corresponding to 5' arc,” and he presented Table V for clarification:

manatur 144 cubits = 12² cubits-----720 sun diameters = 12 x 60------25,920 še 360̊ = 12 x 60̊-----4,320 šu-si fingers

..........................................................................................................................................................................= 12 x 360

ammatu “cubit, sun cubit”-----------------5 sun diameters-----------------------180 še 2̊30' arc----------------30 fingers

ubanu “finger”----------------------------5/30 sun diameter----------------------------6 še 5' arc---------------------1 finger

In addition, time could be measured in length units so that “12 geodesic bēru (= 360 UŠ)” could be equated “with 1 solar ≈ sidereal day,” a system of time measurement dating back to at least the Middle Bronze Age. This method probably entailed early recognition of the isometric relationship of 12 months of 360 days with 12 bēru of 360 UŠ. Thus, on the road, travelers could see that when on “a march of 1 bēru” (1,800 nindan “rods”), the sun would also move a distance of 1 bēru ≈ 30̊. Indeed, the measures of 1, 3, 6, and 12 bēru correspond to 30̊, 90̊, 180̊, and 360̊. A Seleucid text from Uruk (RA 10, 216-218, AO 6476) provides the following earthly and heavenly equivalents (Powell, RLA, VII:468, and Table VIII):

1 talent ---------------------- 12 danna/ bēru on Earth (ina qaqqari) -------------------- 648,000 danna/ bēru in Heaven (ina šamê)

One can readily see from this that 1 danna/ bēru of 30̊ on Earth was equal to 54,000 danna/ bēru in Heaven.

In Later Babylonian ammatum (abbatum), “cubit,” became a synomym for "Earth" (usually er-se-tu). This is very interesting since at Book of Abraham fac. 2:1, Jah-oh-eh is an Egyptian word meaning “this earth,” and Joseph Smith further defined it as “O the earth!” in the Times & Seasons for Nov 13, 1843 (IV:373). Egyptian “O the earth!” would be Egyptian i “Oh!” (as in Fac. 2:11), pronounced yah (cognate with Ugaritic y I, Arabic vocative ya, Aramaic and Late Hebrew ya). The second element is Egyptian Зt “earth,” which is eiōhe in Coptic (the Egyptian final -t- is regularly silent), thus giving a combination of *i-Зt (pronounced ya-ei’ohe).

Finally, according to Jaroslav Černý, the Egyptians saw the stars as divine beings. The Stars were divided by Egyptians into two main groups: ihmw-sk, “Indestructible-stars, Circumpolar-stars” ∥ʿЗw, “Great-ones, Circumpolar-stars” (Pyramid Texts 405a, 733, 782, 1123, 2051; Coffin Text I, 271), both being identical with Hebrew kōkābē-'El, “Stars of God, Circumpolar-stars” (Isaiah 14:13 ∥II Nephi 24:13), symbolizing “eternity,” and identical with “the Mount of Council” or “Mt. Saphon,” and referring to the Supreme Council of God and to his throne (Psalms 48:3, 148:3; cf. the “great one” in Enuma elish V:1, and in Abraham 3:3). In any case, the notion that stars and planets were gods was a very ancient one, even if a variety of ancient theological explanations might be given to that belief – leading, for example, to variant decisions on where to place a king’s mortuary temple, to face either the rising sun or the circumpolar stars.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[canard78]

I'm surprised no-one's yet pointed out that it's not 'Mormon Interpreter' but 'Interpreter'

The URL misleads, but is not the journal title. They might have trouble shaking it off though.

[cdowis]

Is God constrained by the speed of light? I think not.

He is under the laws of the spirit world.

[Tacenda]

Is God constrained by the speed of light? I think not.

He is under the laws of the spirit world.

The God I believe in isn't under any law, he is so big I think he even created evolution and all the galaxies. I still don't know how because he's incomprehensible.

[CASteinman]

The God I believe in isn't under any law, he is so big I think he even created evolution and all the galaxies. I still don't know how because he's incomprehensible.

That is not exactly the God of the scriptures nor how Joseph taught about God.

For example: Alma 42 tells us that God really cannot circumvent Justice. "the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God."

That is just one example.

Now. I do not agree that God is subject to the "laws of the spirit world". I don't even know what that means to agree or disagree. But it appears that God does have some things He cannot do.

I also believe -- because I must -- that God cannot be literally incomprehensible. And Joseph Smith felt the same way:

"In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see."

"These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."

-- Joseph Smith 1844.

[CASteinman]

I'm surprised no-one's yet pointed out that it's not 'Mormon Interpreter' but 'Interpreter'

I think I have seen this complaint before. And I wondered before but I didn't ask before. This time I think I will ask: "Is this terribly important?" I don't understand the concern but I think that there must be some good reason for it.

[ERayR]

I still don't know how because he's incomprehensible.

" And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm surprised no-one's yet pointed out that it's not 'Mormon Interpreter' but 'Interpreter'

I was about to, but you saved me the trouble.

[Nofear]

I quite like Dr. Johnson's interpretation. Some of my basic rules for interpreting Abrahamic astronomy:

• They, Abraham, viewed and described the universe from a very geocentric point of view
  
• They, Abraham, did not have any special understanding of physics, classical or modern
  
• They, Abraham, did not apply/use words to describe earth's motion in the same way to celestical object (e.g. a day for a star does not mean it's sidearal or solar rotation as it does for earth)
  

His hypothesis fits all these points and so preconception bias naturally inclines me to the article. It's simple. It doesn't speculate some advanced scientific knowledge in an ancient prophet. It's a plausible use of the term within the context of other ancient uses. It doesn't suffer from presentism. I think Dr. Johnson has a winner with this interpretation.

[Ahab]

My own take on Dr. Johnson's article (which I submitted to Interpreter last Feb 18) is as follows:

...

I got some but I'm still trying to understand some of what you're saying here. Did you say what point in space would equate to 1000 years for us here on this Earth? I'm thinking it's in the center of the Milky Way galaxy. Is that what you think, too?

p.s. I didn't quote everything you said only because I didn't want to take up so much space with your quote in my post.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Ahab

[urroner]

I quite like Dr. Johnson's interpretation. Some of my basic rules for interpreting Abrahamic astronomy:

• They, Abraham, viewed and described the universe from a very geocentric point of view
  
• They, Abraham, did not have any special understanding of physics, classical or modern
  
• They, Abraham, did not apply/use words to describe earth's motion in the same way to celestical object (e.g. a day for a star does not mean it's sidearal or solar rotation as it does for earth)
  

His hypothesis fits all these points and so preconception bias naturally inclines me to the article. It's simple. It doesn't speculate some advanced scientific knowledge in an ancient prophet. It's a plausible use of the term within the context of other ancient uses. It doesn't suffer from presentism. I think Dr. Johnson has a winner with this interpretation.

I agree. Abraham and those of the same time period didn't have a very complicated view of astronomy. It was geocentric and, AFAIK, they believed that stars were angels in the heavens. There was a foundation of water under the Earth and a foundation of water above the Earth. I doubted very much that Abraham thought the world was round. He probably thought it was flat. How good of a mathematician was he?

The Greek mathematician Eratosthenes was the first person known to solve the diameter of the Earth and he did it around 240 BC and he did find the right diameter, but he was only off by 2%. Pretty awesome, but how he did it was simple, but very ingenious.

The ancients did some incredible things, but most of those incredible things were done in very simple, yet ingenious ways. They didn't heed to have ETs coming down and helping them.

[urroner]

I'm surprised no-one's yet pointed out that it's not 'Mormon Interpreter' but 'Interpreter'

The URL misleads, but is not the journal title. They might have trouble shaking it off though.

They couldn't user interpreter.com since it was already taken.

[Robert F. Smith]

I agree. Abraham and those of the same time period didn't have a very complicated view of astronomy. It was geocentric and, AFAIK, they believed that stars were angels in the heavens. There was a foundation of water under the Earth and a foundation of water above the Earth. I doubted very much that Abraham thought the world was round. He probably thought it was flat. How good of a mathematician was he?

Unless Abe had been trained in math, he wouldn't know much about it. However, we have no idea whether he studied it. Had he studied in the best schools, he would have been taught algebra, including quadratic equations which were being used in Mesopotamia at that time. Also, we do not in fact know whether he was a geocentrist, and we do not know whether he did any more that describe what he saw in his visions, rather than trying to put them into the Procrustean Bed of geocentrism (which we know primarily from Claudius Ptolemy thousands of years later). In the meantime, the Stoics, Aristarchus, Eratosthenes, and others, certainly did not accept geocentrism.

The Greek mathematician Eratosthenes was the first person known to solve the diameter of the Earth and he did it around 240 BC and he did find the right diameter, but he was only off by 2%. Pretty awesome, but how he did it was simple, but very ingenious.

Even in backward Egypt, clever means of measuring were employed, including something like a Biltmore stick, or perhaps a more exotic ancient Egyptian measuring device, such as the all-purpose mrht (merkhet) “indicator, instrument of knowing” – a kind of sighting-bar with plumb-line (h3y) and plumb-bob (th) which was used variously as a “shadow-clock” (sun-dial), as a star-clock, as a horologion (water-clock), and as an astral gauge in surveying for foundation ceremonies. For use in the latter instance, it was combined with a b3y (n imy wnwt “palm-rib of the observer of hours”), which could be sighted in on Mizar (ζ-Ursae Majoris) in the Big Dipper’s handle, and on Kochab (b-Ursae Minoris) in the bowl of the Little Dipper during the Old Kingdom, since there was at that time no pole-star.

The ancients did some incredible things, but most of those incredible things were done in very simple, yet ingenious ways. They didn't heed to have ETs coming down and helping them.

Modern students are taught that it all started with the Greeks, which is simply not true.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Robert F. Smith