Why Are We Upset That Some Women Want The Priesthood?

[CASteinman]

Please elaborate where you see the redundancy.

Either you agree that there is a redundancy and it is eliminated or you accept that the women will suddenly have unequal and significantly more responsibilities in the Church.

The Priesthood is organized by Quorums according to ordination by offices revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith. The women would be in that same structure. If, in addition, they also were in their own special Quorum of Relief Society that would be added responsibility.

And there is nothing that the Relief Society does related to the restoration of the Gospel that could not ( and really should be) done by the Priesthood.

If Gender is not a cause for segregation according to Priesthood, it is also not a cause to separate the responsibilities.

[Bikeemikey]

You claim it was clear. I say it was not... the Poll Question was entirely silent on the matter. Its ok for you to get over this quickly rather than beat a dead horse.

No dead horse beating here... I am honestly interested in your idea that a proclamation in GC may not be the result of revelation.

[CASteinman]

Where do you see the problems coming from? Why is their damage from the change?

Alas, I must keep the source of my opinions -- and much of the details of my opinions on this -- to myself.

I see change from the change... I am not sure I see damage... Would you please be able to provide some examples of where these damages you think may occur.

I believe both men and women would be weaker in the faith on average. I will not go much further into detail on this for a variety of reasons.

[CASteinman]

No dead horse beating here... I am honestly interested in your idea that a proclamation in GC may not be the result of revelation.

Its not my idea. I answered the hypothetical poll question -- one that I am already on record as saying that I do not think will reflect reality any time soon. Probably not in my lifetime. Maybe never.

Edited March 28, 2013 by CASteinman

[Bikeemikey]

Either you agree that there is a redundancy and it is eliminated or you accept that the women will suddenly have unequal and significantly more responsibilities in the Church.

The Priesthood is organized by Quorums according to ordination by offices revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith. The women would be in that same structure. If, in addition, they also were in their own special Quorum of Relief Society that would be added responsibility.

And there is nothing that the Relief Society does related to the restoration of the Gospel that could not ( and really should be) done by the Priesthood.

If Gender is not a cause for segregation according to Priesthood, it is also not a cause to separate the responsibilities.

There is no reason you could not have Relief Society Quorums made up exclusively of female priesthood holders.

Otherwise I agree with everything you have said. There is no reason not to merge.

I am not advocating for either continuing separation or integration. I am simply stating that a change that allows for Priesthood ordination to women does not have to mean that existing structures would have to change, though it would seem unlikely.

[CASteinman]

There is no reason you could not have Relief Society Quorums made up exclusively of female priesthood holders.

Yes there is. It is wrong.

Edited March 28, 2013 by CASteinman

[Bernard Gui]

I would have a very hard time reconciling such an action with the

doctrine of the Atonement and its inseparable connection to the

Father/Son priesthood relationship in the Godhead.

[Stone holm]

It is clear that reference to the announcement occurring in conference is a reference to revelation as the cause for change - unless I am also secretly proposing a sudden LDS apocalypse where the leaders of the church fail fulfill their prophetic callings and decide that this year they will just do whatever they want without the need for revelation.

It is good to know that for some respondents may have made answers assuming that revelation was not the reason for the hypothetical conference announcement.

Well though as you will recall, David O. McKay was urged to do just that by a revered and respected GA when it came to extending the Priesthood to the Africans. And the scriptural support for the gender discrimination is almost as weak as that was.

[CASteinman]

Well though as you will recall, David O. McKay was urged to do just that by a revered and respected GA when it came to extending the Priesthood to the Africans. And the scriptural support for the gender discrimination is almost as weak as that was.

Scriptural support for ordaining women is even weaker.

[bjw]

I put neutral because I don't really care either way. If God chooses to change the role of women in the church I would support it, but I also sustain the current structure of the church.

I am also a Freemason and Rosicrucian, and I see the structure of these fraternities and it makes me wonder sometimes if Mormonism would be different if the role of women was expanded. For instance, in Freemasonry women are not allowed to do the degrees and are in a separate organization in the fraternity called "Eastern Star" that has women in the superior role, with a degree that emphasizes virtuous women in scripture. However, masonry's higher degrees (scottish/york rite) have the priestly role of men from the Bible and other backgrounds.

However, in Rosicrucianism women and men are treated equally and go through the degrees on an equal basis. Men and women have an equal chance at positions of authority. For me it seems like there is more "learning" going on in the lodge meetings when you have men and women side-by-side, and the women take it more seriously because they feel there is more to learn.

Now, I understand that fraternities are much different than a church, particularly the church that is Restored Christianity, and we must go by modern revelation. I do not think women are inferior in the church because they have a completely separate function that men cannot perform. Women not only bare children but they tend to have the gift of more compassion, and being in charge of the Relief Society helps the poor and needy in addition to supporting the priesthood.

[Stone holm]

I put neutral because I don't really care either way. If God chooses to change the role of women in the church I would support it, but I also sustain the current structure of the church.

I am also a Freemason and Rosicrucian, and I see the structure of these fraternities and it makes me wonder sometimes if Mormonism would be different if the role of women was expanded. For instance, in Freemasonry women are not allowed to do the degrees and are in a separate organization in the fraternity called "Eastern Star" that has women in the superior role, with a degree that emphasizes virtuous women in scripture. However, masonry's higher degrees (scottish/york rite) have the priestly role of men from the Bible and other backgrounds.

However, in Rosicrucianism women and men are treated equally and go through the degrees on an equal basis. Men and women have an equal chance at positions of authority. For me it seems like there is more "learning" going on in the lodge meetings when you have men and women side-by-side, and the women take it more seriously because they feel there is more to learn.

Now, I understand that fraternities are much different than a church, particularly the church that is Restored Christianity, and we must go by modern revelation. I do not think women are inferior in the church because they have a completely separate function that men cannot perform. Women not only bare children but they tend to have the gift of more compassion, and being in charge of the Relief Society helps the poor and needy in addition to supporting the priesthood.

I thought that men could join Eastern Star, in fact I know a man who was active in Eastern Star. I used to be in Masons, Scottish Rite and York Rite , but outside the degrees and mandatory lessons don't recall much learning actually going on.

[bjw]

I thought that men could join Eastern Star, in fact I know a man who was active in Eastern Star. I used to be in Masons, Scottish Rite and York Rite , but outside the degrees and mandatory lessons don't recall much learning actually going on.

I thought that men could join Eastern Star, in fact I know a man who was active in Eastern Star. I used to be in Masons, Scottish Rite and York Rite , but outside the degrees and mandatory lessons don't recall much learning actually going on.

Yes, men can join the Eastern Star, but women are in the officer positions.

[slamarwi]

I voted against.

Many men need responsibility and expectations to help them grow and meet their potential. I believe this change would significantly reduce male participation and greatly alter the male/female membership ratio.

I would certainly have difficulty with the timing and would likely need a sabbatical to sort it our for myself.

[CASteinman]

I believe this change would significantly reduce male participation and greatly alter the male/female membership ratio.

I agree with this.

[Shanky82]

Could you please provide some additional information as to how you came to this conclusion... How would they end up with more responsibilities?

Why certainly. Women will still have to get pregnant and give birth, raise and nuture their children all the while tending to their "priesthood" duties. Whereas we men will still be expected to work, provide, protect, and fulfill our priesthood responsibilities. Unless by some freak "miracle" the Lord deecided to create wombs inside us men to even things out. Which would be kind of awesome. Instead of the doctors calling contractions they would be calling out diameter sizes. I want to hear them say, "he's at 12 inches!"

[why me]

Well though as you will recall, David O. McKay was urged to do just that by a revered and respected GA when it came to extending the Priesthood to the Africans. And the scriptural support for the gender discrimination is almost as weak as that was.

Except that aArican-Americans did have the priesthood. What could not be justified was why it was taken away from them. Like I said, earlier on this thread or a different thread...the case for women would be stronger if Emma received the priesthood as did other women and it was taken away from them as happened to the African-Americans.

Edited March 29, 2013 by why me

[Shanky82]

Why certainly. Women will still have to get pregnant and give birth, raise and nuture their children all the while tending to their "priesthood" duties. Whereas we men will still be expected to work, provide, protect, and fulfill our priesthood responsibilities. Unless by some freak "miracle" the Lord deecided to create wombs inside us men to even things out. Which would be kind of awesome. Instead of the doctors calling contractions they would be calling out diameter sizes. I want to hear them say, "he's at 12 inches!"

I may have gone a little over board with my comment. My humble apologies. My reasoning behind my comment is that I don't think the Lord will give a revelation directing us me to stop working, providing, and protecting our families. Whereas the commandment to bear children (meaning: getting pregnant, being fruitful, multiplying and replenishing the earth. I'm sorry. I don't know of any other way of putting that.) will still be in force. Men will still be expected to be providers and protectors and women will still be expected to be nurturers and caretakers of the home. How is it equality to demand that I stay at and not work just so women have something haven't been given? I'm going to work whether women are given the priesthood or not.

[why me]

I voted against.

I would certainly have difficulty with the timing and would likely need a sabbatical to sort it our for myself.

Many members would leave and I am sure that most of the women who support the ordaining of women would also, if they are attending. I do believe that without the right preparation it would marginalize the church world wide as members would leave and membership declines. The LDS church would resemble the CoC.

[Bikeemikey]

Yes there is. It is wrong.

Once again I am astounded by your detailed and well reasoned responses.

You have left me with much to think on.

[Bikeemikey]

Many members would leave and I am sure that most of the women who support the ordaining of women would also, if they are attending. I do believe that without the right preparation it would marginalize the church world wide as members would leave and membership declines. The LDS church would resemble the CoC.

This was also a common concern prior to blacks receiving the priesthood... Would you please provide some additional detail as to why this time it would actually happen compared to last time a major change occurred and it did not?

[Stone holm]

I agree with this.

I suspect there is some truth to this, as some of the women who have balked somewhat at the idea did so because they believe women are already doing the bulk of the work and this would just provide an excuse for the men to dump more work on them. It is, however also my reason for rejecting the nonsense about the reason that women not receiving the Priesthood because the women are too busy rearing the children which might be true , but for the fact that anyone who has either been a Bishop or served in a Bishopric would know that the women are already doing the bulk of the work in the Ward they are just being denied the ability to have more say in the decision making.

[klakak]

I suspect there is some truth to this, as some of the women who have balked somewhat at the idea did so because they believe women are already doing the bulk of the work and this would just provide an excuse for the men to dump more work on them. It is, however also my reason for rejecting the nonsense about the reason that women not receiving the Priesthood because the women are too busy rearing the children which might be true , but for the fact that anyone who has either been a Bishop or served in a Bishopric would know that the women are already doing the bulk of the work in the Ward they are just being denied the ability to have more say in the decision making.

What decision making are they being left out of? The Relief Society already does a lot of the planning that goes on in a ward. Do you mean with revelation that a bishop receives for a ward?

[Stone holm]

What decision making are they being left out of? The Relief Society already does a lot of the planning that goes on in a ward. Do you mean with revelation that a bishop receives for a ward?

Oh I quite agree that the Relief Society does a lot of the planning and actually much of the work done in the Ward. However, they are severely limited as to which of the Ward Councils they attend, they do not attend the Bishopric Meetings, they do not attend the Stake High Council Meetings, they do not attend the Stake Presidency meetings, etc. Most Bishops learn early on, however, if they want to make sure that something gets done and gets done right and with thoroughness, you have the Relief Society do it and then get the heck out of their way. If you want Baptisms to increase in the Ward, pray for Sister Missionaries and if you get a pair, don't let the Mission take them away if you can possibly avoid it.

[Storm Rider]

Oh I quite agree that the Relief Society does a lot of the planning and actually much of the work done in the Ward. However, they are severely limited as to which of the Ward Councils they attend, they do not attend the Bishopric Meetings, they do not attend the Stake High Council Meetings, they do not attend the Stake Presidency meetings, etc. Most Bishops learn early on, however, if they want to make sure that something gets done and gets done right and with thoroughness, you have the Relief Society do it and then get the heck out of their way. If you want Baptisms to increase in the Ward, pray for Sister Missionaries and if you get a pair, don't let the Mission take them away if you can possibly avoid it.

This is the fairy tale that gets repeated so often some actually believe it. The problem with it is that I have actually lived long enough to know that it is a complete fallacy, but if it makes you feel good, go for it, but it is not reality.

[CASteinman]

they are just being denied the ability to have more say in the decision making.

As far as I know, this is nonsense.