Joseph Smith'S Polygamy

[Sleeper Cell]

I think BY was a great pioneer leader, and fit for purpose of setting up as a Western commune leader... But his theology seems scatter-gun. And it seems to be under his leadership (not Joseph's) that both polygamy and non-black priesthood got fully established as institutional.

I can see why most of the 1830s founders found it difficult to stomach what mormonism became in Utah and, as a result, denounced it.

Didn’t many of the 1830s founders of the church found it difficult to stomach what Mormonism became in Kirtland, and as s result, denounced it?

[T-Shirt]

25% is not small. Brigham and other said many times a monogamist could not be exalted and chastised the saints for not entering into plural marriage.

The figure is closer to 5% of men.

[Tacenda]

The figure is closer to 5% of men.

CFR?

[MormonMason]

I would say less than 5%. I just dug through my scriptures just now and found in the margin of OD-1 a quote of Joseph F. Smith derived from the Francis Asbury Hammond Journal, under the date of April 14, 1893, and from the 48th page of the John Mills Whitaker Journal under the date of April 1893. Joseph F. Smith, according to these sources, gave the figure of "not over two percent of the Latter-day Saints ever entered into that Principle" in that talk concerning the giving of the Manifesto and its reasons.

[canard78]

I would say less than 5%. I just dug through my scriptures just now and found in the margin of OD-1 a quote of Joseph F. Smith derived from the Francis Asbury Hammond Journal, under the date of April 14, 1893, and from the 48th page of the John Mills Whitaker Journal under the date of April 1893. Joseph F. Smith, according to these sources, gave the figure of "not over two percent of the Latter-day Saints ever entered into that Principle" in that talk concerning the giving of the Manifesto and its reasons.

Which may be technically accurate but a little misleading.

Consider:

At present, perhaps the best estimates of the number of polygamous families among late-nineteenth-century Latter-day Saints range between 20 and 30 percent. Nevertheless, studies of individual communities show a wide variation in the incidence of plurality. Using 1880 census data, geographer Lowell C. “Ben” Bennion found the lowest percentage of polygamous families—5 percent—in Davis County’s south Weber and the highest—67 percent—in Orderville. He found 15 percent in Springville. In a study of St. George, historian Larry Logue found nearly 30 percent of the families polygamous in 1870 and 33 percent in 1880. (Alexander’s centennial history of Utah, quoted in Flake, The Politics of American Religious Identity, 65 and 192)

Read more: http://blog.beliefnet.com/flunkingsainthood/2011/07/polygamy-by-numbers-how-many-mormons-were-really-involved.html#ixzz2M8snGvay

[Nevo]

The claim that "not over two percent of the Latter-day Saints ever entered into [plural marriage]" is totally unfounded and I am frankly surprised to see one of the board's more well-informed posters peddling this discredited figure.

As the historian B. Carmon Hardy has noted, "During the 1880s, Mormon representatives in testimony before Congress stated that no more than 1 or 2 percent of the church’s membership was polygamous. Church authorities in their sermons, missionaries abroad, and guides on Temple Square almost to the present time have repeated these figures. We now know, owing to work by Logue, Bennion and others, that the actual number, depending on the years and location, likely averaged between 15 and 30 percent" (Hardy, "That 'Same Old Question of Polygamy and Polygamous Living:' Some Recent Findings Regarding Nineteenth and Early Twentieth-Century Mormon Polygamy," Utah Historical Quarterly 73, no. 3 [2005]: 215).

In Mapping Mormonism: An Atlas of Latter-day Saint History (published last year by BYU Studies), Lowell C. "Ben" Bennion traced the prevalence of plural marriage in sixty Mormon towns as of 1870 and found that an average of 25 to 30 percent of those sixty towns’ residents lived in plural households. So the number of nineteenth-century Latter-day Saints that practiced plural marriage was considerably higher than two percent. In many places it was closer to 15 to 20 percent of men and 25 to 30 percent of women—the upper limit of sustainability according to one recent study.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Nevo

[Tacenda]

The claim that "not over two percent of the Latter-day Saints ever entered into [plural marriage]" is totally unfounded and I am frankly surprised to see one of the board's more well-informed posters peddling this discredited figure.

As the historian B. Carmon Hardy has noted, "During the 1880s, Mormon representatives in testimony before Congress stated that no more than 1 or 2 percent of the church’s membership was polygamous. Church authorities in their sermons, missionaries abroad, and guides on Temple Square almost to the present time have repeated these figures. We now know, owing to work by Logue, Bennion and others, that the actual number, depending on the years and location, likely averaged between 15 and 30 percent" (Hardy, "That 'Same Old Question of Polygamy and Polygamous Living:' Some Recent Findings Regarding Nineteenth and Early Twentieth-Century Mormon Polygamy," Utah Historical Quarterly 73, no. 3 [2005]: 215).

In Mapping Mormonism: An Atlas of Latter-day Saint History (published last year by BYU Studies), Lowell C. "Ben" Bennion traced the prevalence of plural marriage in sixty Mormon towns as of 1870 and found that an average of 25 to 30 percent of those sixty towns’ residents lived in plural households. So the number of nineteenth-century Latter-day Saints that practiced plural marriage was considerably higher than two percent. In many places it was closer to 15 to 20 percent of men and 25 to 30 percent of women—the upper limit of sustainability according to one recent study.

This has been what I've seen in my layman study of it. Now I know why there is a descrepancy. People are getting wrong info! Thanks for clearing the matter up, too bad everyone doesn't read this board! Edited February 28, 2013 by Tacenda

[mormonresponse]

Joseph Smith's "style" of polygany has always been of interest, and a little hard to sort out. I make YouTube videos regarding Church doctrine. I felt Joseph Smith's polygany should be dealt with separately, because of how complex it seems, but I did make one that deals with the fact that Mormons today are not polygamists. Feel free to share it with your friends.

Are Mormons Polygamists?

I will continue researching polygany regarding Joseph Smith. Thanks for the link provided about Joseph's sealings!

—Mormon Response

[iamse7en]

Very little discussion on the actual topic at hand. I have begun reading Hales' books and it's great so far. Really like the organization and in-depth discussion from different angles. Although he frames it in a way to convince you of his personal interpretation of the available source material, he references almost all the material (both pro and con the principle) available so that you can still draw your own conclusions.

[MormonMason]

The claim that "not over two percent of the Latter-day Saints ever entered into [plural marriage]" is totally unfounded and I am frankly surprised to see one of the board's more well-informed posters peddling this discredited figure.

As the historian B. Carmon Hardy has noted, "During the 1880s, Mormon representatives in testimony before Congress stated that no more than 1 or 2 percent of the church’s membership was polygamous. Church authorities in their sermons, missionaries abroad, and guides on Temple Square almost to the present time have repeated these figures. We now know, owing to work by Logue, Bennion and others, that the actual number, depending on the years and location, likely averaged between 15 and 30 percent" (Hardy, "That 'Same Old Question of Polygamy and Polygamous Living:' Some Recent Findings Regarding Nineteenth and Early Twentieth-Century Mormon Polygamy," Utah Historical Quarterly 73, no. 3 [2005]: 215).

In Mapping Mormonism: An Atlas of Latter-day Saint History (published last year by BYU Studies), Lowell C. "Ben" Bennion traced the prevalence of plural marriage in sixty Mormon towns as of 1870 and found that an average of 25 to 30 percent of those sixty towns’ residents lived in plural households. So the number of nineteenth-century Latter-day Saints that practiced plural marriage was considerably higher than two percent. In many places it was closer to 15 to 20 percent of men and 25 to 30 percent of women—the upper limit of sustainability according to one recent study.

There is a reason why I do not cite Hardy. He has a proclivity to mishandle his sources and reinterpret them whichever way is necessary to make his facts fit his thesis. Keep in mind that this figure was also cited directly to members of the Church, not just to government. This also covered total membership worldwide from the beginning to the times of Wilford Woodruff and Joseph F. Smith, not just those in the Utah territory. And, in 1870 there were more than sixty Mormon towns. Where are the stats for the rest of them? Now, I have no access to my books at the moment and I am physically ill in a place away from my books. All I can say is that Hardy takes considerable liberties with his sources. Before castigating me, I strongly suggest that you take the time to fact check every single one of his footnotes. I think you will have your eyes opened if you are careful enough to see how subtle he is. And, now, I am off to bed again and likely will be there for several days. I may or may not post again for a bit unless I start feeling better.

[Tacenda]

There is a reason why I do not cite Hardy. He has a proclivity to mishandle his sources and reinterpret them whichever way is necessary to make his facts fit his thesis. Keep in mind that this figure was also cited directly to members of the Church, not just to government. This also covered total membership worldwide from the beginning to the times of Wilford Woodruff and Joseph F. Smith, not just those in the Utah territory. And, in 1870 there were more than sixty Mormon towns. Where are the stats for the rest of them? Now, I have no access to my books at the moment and I am physically ill in a place away from my books. All I can say is that Hardy takes considerable liberties with his sources. Before castigating me, I strongly suggest that you take the time to fact check every single one of his footnotes. I think you will have your eyes opened if you are careful enough to see how subtle he is. And, now, I am off to bed again and likely will be there for several days. I may or may not post again for a bit unless I start feeling better.

When you're feeling better I'd like to see what you have. Take care!

[sheilauk]

I would say less than 5%. I just dug through my scriptures just now and found in the margin of OD-1 a quote of Joseph F. Smith derived from the Francis Asbury Hammond Journal, under the date of April 14, 1893, and from the 48th page of the John Mills Whitaker Journal under the date of April 1893. Joseph F. Smith, according to these sources, gave the figure of "not over two percent of the Latter-day Saints ever entered into that Principle" in that talk concerning the giving of the Manifesto and its reasons.

The claim that "not over two percent of the Latter-day Saints ever entered into [plural marriage]" is totally unfounded and I am frankly surprised to see one of the board's more well-informed posters peddling this discredited figure.

As the historian B. Carmon Hardy has noted, "During the 1880s, Mormon representatives in testimony before Congress stated that no more than 1 or 2 percent of the church’s membership was polygamous. Church authorities in their sermons, missionaries abroad, and guides on Temple Square almost to the present time have repeated these figures. We now know, owing to work by Logue, Bennion and others, that the actual number, depending on the years and location, likely averaged between 15 and 30 percent" (Hardy, "That 'Same Old Question of Polygamy and Polygamous Living:' Some Recent Findings Regarding Nineteenth and Early Twentieth-Century Mormon Polygamy," Utah Historical Quarterly 73, no. 3 [2005]: 215).

In Mapping Mormonism: An Atlas of Latter-day Saint History (published last year by BYU Studies), Lowell C. "Ben" Bennion traced the prevalence of plural marriage in sixty Mormon towns as of 1870 and found that an average of 25 to 30 percent of those sixty towns’ residents lived in plural households. So the number of nineteenth-century Latter-day Saints that practiced plural marriage was considerably higher than two percent. In many places it was closer to 15 to 20 percent of men and 25 to 30 percent of women—the upper limit of sustainability according to one recent study.

This has been what I've seen in my layman study of it. Now I know why there is a descrepancy. People are getting wrong info! Thanks for clearing the matter up, too bad everyone doesn't read this board!

There are, to repeat a UK politician of the 1880's, "lies, damned lies and statistics"! I would say that we have an example here of the way statistics can be manipulated and misread, rather than people getting wrong information. Both sets of quoted statistics are likely correct, the question is what exactly is each measuring and can they be compared? Are they like for like? I read it as no. One seems to be looking at total membership and the number of men who had multiple wives as a percentage of that total and the other is looking at a geographical sample and counting the number of families and citing the percentage of people in a polgyamous situation, which is the men (only one presumably per family), the women (several wives per family) and children. There also seem to be different time frames. Thus we get very different figures. When statistics are quoted or compared, it is necessary to know exactly how the sample was obtained and what was counted before drawing any firm conclusions and then remember that raw data can be used to substantiate almost any conclusion one wants to draw. Go to the source of the data and draw your own conclusions.

[why me]

I don't understand why it matters just what the percentage of mormons who practiced polygamy was. Either polygamy was from god or it wasn't. It is as simple as that. When I look at it objectively, I see Joseph getting the commandment in the very early 30's. He attempted it once and got a negative reaction from emma. He then put it off for more than ten years. Then, in the early 40's, he began to practice it again in earnest. There had to be a reason for this and I don't think that it was sex. And his own explanation that god was a little put off about Joseph's indecisiveness does seem credible. And then, we have the spiritual experiences of the women who agreed to be sealed to him.

At the end of the day this is what matters: did Joseph feel pressure from god to restart the doctrine? Did the women involved actually have such a strong spiritual experience? And if this was all lust, why didn't any of the women involved blow his cover after he died?

[sheilauk]

I don't understand why it matters just what the percentage of mormons who practiced polygamy was. Either polygamy was from god or it wasn't. It is as simple as that. When I look at it objectively, I see Joseph getting the commandment in the very early 30's. He attempted it once and got a negative reaction from emma. He then put it off for more than ten years. Then, in the early 40's, he began to practice it again in earnest. There had to be a reason for this and I don't think that it was sex. And his own explanation that god was a little put off about Joseph's indecisiveness does seem credible. And then, we have the spiritual experiences of the women who agreed to be sealed to him.

At the end of the day this is what matters: did Joseph feel pressure from god to restart the doctrine? Did the women involved actually have such a strong spiritual experience? And if this was all lust, why didn't any of the women involved blow his cover after he died?

Personally, I don't care if 100% of the early Saints were polygamous and it wouldn't bother me if it were in place now, assuming those involved were of age and gave informed consent. However, it does bother other people and, while you raise some good points, it does seem to be an issue which people struggle with, whether it is with presentism or obtaining a spiritual answer or any other reason. If knowing the figures helps them to come to a conclusion, then fair enough. However, I would reiterate my caution that they should look at the raw data and not others conclusions or representations of that data.

[thesometimesaint]

On a purely functional basis polygamy is a deadenders game. But if God commands it. He knows better than I do what is needed.

[T-Shirt]

CFR?

It was a study I did several years ago. I have been looking for the information I compiled, but, so far, have not been able to find it. Sorry, you can take my word for it or you can ignore it. For what it's worth, I will say that according to my research, 5% was the upper end of the number of men practicing polygamy in the Church in Utah. If I find the data, I will post it. Otherwise, you a free to make what you want of it.

[Tacenda]

It was a study I did several years ago. I have been looking for the information I compiled, but, so far, have not been able to find it. Sorry, you can take my word for it or you can ignore it. For what it's worth, I will say that according to my research, 5% was the upper end of the number of men practicing polygamy in the Church in Utah. If I find the data, I will post it. Otherwise, you a free to make what you want of it.

Thanks for trying.

[why me]

Personally, I don't care if 100% of the early Saints were polygamous and it wouldn't bother me if it were in place now, assuming those involved were of age and gave informed consent. However, it does bother other people and, while you raise some good points, it does seem to be an issue which people struggle with, whether it is with presentism or obtaining a spiritual answer or any

other reason. If knowing the figures helps them to come to a conclusion, then fair enough. However, I would reiterate my caution that they should look at the raw data and not others conclusions or representations of that data.

Polygamy was no big deal before the internet and critic interpretations. I learned about it in high school history class and I remember my reaction: so what if a group of people in Utah were practicing polygamy.

It is only with the internet age that we get a problem because of how critics interpret it. But I see it as no big deal. And it is in the d & c. How can it be missed?

[Tacenda]

Polygamy was no big deal before the internet and critic interpretations. I learned about it in high school history class and I remember my reaction: so what if a group of people in Utah were practicing polygamy.

It is only with the internet age that we get a problem because of how critics interpret it. But I see it as no big deal. And it is in the d & c. How can it be missed?

I was the same way, I don't know why when it came to JS living it, that all heck broke loose. Well I do know, but it's a broken record. I guess with time, I've become less upset by it. Edited March 1, 2013 by Tacenda

[why me]

I was the same way, I don't know why when it came to JS living it, that all heck broke loose. Well I do know, but it's a broken record. I guess with time, I've become less upset by it.

Even Joseph Smith's polygamy is in the introduction to section 132. It was still no big deal. But with critic interpretations it suddenly became a hot potato. Why? I have no idea. Also, we need to remember that some of his wives went to utah and they were known to be the wives of joseph smith. It was no big deal there either. I just think that too much hay is made of it these days because it works for the critics. But really, these women were honored in utah and when they died, their tombstones would make it known that they were married to Joseph.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=18786537

Edited March 1, 2013 by why me

[why me]

In the fall of 1842, Rhoda moved to Nauvoo and soon met Joseph Smith. Her brother, Apostle Willard Richards, was a close associate of Joseph Smith and perhaps introduced Rhoda to Joseph. In the spring of 1843, Rhoda made her home in "the Prophets store." The following month, on June 12, Rhoda married Joseph Smith. Her brother Willard performed the marriage. Rhoda wrote, "In my young days I buried my first and only love, and true to that affiance [pledge], I have passed companionless through life; but am sure of having my proper place and standing in the resurrection, having been sealed to the prophet Joseph, according to the celestial law, by his own request, under the inspiration of divine revelation."

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=20804909

So, speaks Rhoda Richards, a plural wife of Joseph Smith.

[why me]

On June 27, 1859, Presendia and several friends climbed Ensign Peak to commemorate the death of her second husband, Joseph Smith. "We offered up our prayers to God and thanks that He had raised up a prophet in these last days and the Gospel had been restored to the earth, and that we had been of the few that had received the truth".

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=22541696

So spoke Presendia Kimball, a plural wife of Joseph Smith

[why me]

After the Prophet's death, Emily was married to Brigham Young, September 1844.

In 1846, when she was 22 years old she, with the rest of the Saints, left Nauvoo. After crossing the Mississippi river she was again a wanderer without a home or shelter, and on one occasion she sat for several hours on a log with a young babe, three months old, exposed to the pitiless blast of a blinding snow storm, cold and hungry, but the Lord tempered the elements and preserved her life and that of her little one. She lived one winter at Mt. Pisgah, Iowa and another at Winter Quarters, Nebraska, leaving for the Valley of the Great Salt Lake in the spring of 1848.

She always bore a strong testimony to the truth of the Gospel.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=20202703

Such is the final years of Emily Dow Partridge Young.