Joseph Smith'S Polygamy

[Teancum]

I guess that you find the spiritual experiences of the women not important. For some, it would have been a resounding no without such powerful spiritual experiences after praying about the principle.

You are like a broken record on this. No matter how many times others point out the problems that come from the claim of spirtual witness on this subject. You discount the duress many of these women were under to accept the invitation. You reject that once they entered into plural marriage they were hightly motivated to justify it. You discount the fact that many who said they had a witness were still miserable living it. You dismiss other testimony from women who entered into similar relationships with men who claimed God was telling them to do this. You also reject the testimony that the woman who rejected JSs proposals gave that they did not believe this was of God. Why Why Me? Whe is Nancy Rigdon's testimony any less than the others? Because she rejected Joseph?

[Alan]

Alan my conclusions is based on many hours of reading competent historians on this subject. Not one of them..no not one.. has reached anything like your conclusion.

And why do you conclude the affidavits are unreliable? Really? All of them from so many persons?

Of course I agree polygamy got the church little benefit though some argue it made a crop of great leaders from children being born into families that were solid in the Church. But it has been an albatross around the neck of the Church for over a hundred years. I am sure the current leaders wish that they did not have to deal with the historical fall out that comes from polygamy.

Teancum,

I think the clue to your position is right there in your own words when you say your conclusions are "based on many hours of reading competent historians on this subject".

The issues as I see them are:

1. Like many people, you are relying on others to interpret information for you.

2. All historians, pro or anti Mormon, have a preconceived belief that Joseph was a polygamist.

My advice is to put all of that aside and look at the evidence afresh. Like I said, you can't prove a negative, but you will certainly find that the "huge" amount of evidence you thought was there is considerably less than conclusive.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Alan

[Teancum]

Nope. Only a small percentage of members ever engaged in polygamy. It was only a requirement for those that were commanded.

25% is not small. Brigham and other said many times a monogamist could not be exalted and chastised the saints for not entering into plural marriage.

[Alan]

25% is not small. Brigham and other said many times a monogamist could not be exalted and chastised the saints for not entering into plural marriage.

Brigham was wrong.

[Teancum]

Sorry Alan. I think you are in denial.

[Teancum]

Brigham was wrong.

Was he now. If he was wrong about this what else was he wrong about? If prophets can get things so wrong-polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, Adam God, Blood atonement and so on how can we trust them?

[Alan]

Was he now. If he was wrong about this what else was he wrong about? If prophets can get things so wrong-polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, Adam God, Blood atonement and so on how can we trust them?

One thing Brigham Young was right about is that we should not trust them!

Not until we get a personal confirmation from the Holy Spirit that what they are asking us to do or believe, is correct. We are under no obligation if we have no confirmation. In fact, one of his greatest fears for the saints was that they wouldn't do this and would just trust their leaders. He said no saint who does that can ever achieve celestial glory.

[Tacenda]

Brigham was wrong.

If Brigham was wrong then are we in the right "break off" LDS church?

[Saints Alive]

I'm not 100% convinced Joseph had anything to do with polygamy. The pure Mormonism blog has an interesting read on the subject. http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/06/why-im-abandoning-polygamy.html

I think it is entirely possible that Joseph was attached (blamed more likely) to polygamy after his death.

[Alan]

If Brigham was wrong then are we in the right "break off" LDS church?

What do you think?

Our leaders are allowed to be wrong. They are not infallible and history has shown that time and time again.

[Saints Alive]

If Brigham was wrong then are we in the right "break off" LDS church?

Not necessarily. However the RLDS maintained for a long time that JS had nothing to do with polygamy.

[Tacenda]

What do you think?

Our leaders are allowed to be wrong. They are not infallible and history has shown that time and time again.

Well that is definitely food for thought. Alan, I think you should keep with what you think is right or your own feelings. I hope I haven't ever disrespected you but probably have in my comments. Who's to know if I'm wrong and others? I use to be in your shoes and life was good then.

[Alan]

I'm not 100% convinced Joseph had anything to do with polygamy. The pure Mormonism blog has an interesting read on the subject. http://puremormonism...g-polygamy.html

I think it is entirely possible that Joseph was attached (blamed more likely) to polygamy after his death.

Yes, there are an increasing number of saints who are beginning to question this part of our so-called history.

I know he was a president of the RLDS Church, but Joseph Smith's grandson said:

"Joseph Smith was the greatest victim of fraud and conspiracy of the last 500 years. Nothing like it in recorded history. He was simply lied about when something had to be done to justify..... Utah Mormon polygamy." Israel A. Smith

[Saints Alive]

Yes, there are an increasing number of saints who are beginning to question this part of our so-called history.

I know he was a president of the RLDS Church, but Joseph Smith's grandson said:

"Joseph Smith was the greatest victim of fraud and conspiracy of the last 500 years. Nothing like it in recorded history. He was simply lied about when something had to be done to justify..... Utah Mormon polygamy." Israel A. Smith

Especially since BY never claimed to be a prophet himself, he had to have a source for polygamy.

[Alan]

Especially since BY never claimed to be a prophet himself, he had to have a source for polygamy.

Brigham actually claimed that plural marriage was revealed to him from God when he was a missionary serving in England in 1840. He went on to say that before he had this revelation, "there had never been a thought of it in the church that I ever knew anything about at that time, but I had this for myself and I kept it to myself."

[webbles]

25% is not small. Brigham and other said many times a monogamist could not be exalted and chastised the saints for not entering into plural marriage.

Can I CFR the 25%? That seems a little high. http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_polygamy/Prevalence_of_in_Utah puts it between 15-20%.

And what I've read of the quotes, you have to accept polygamy and be willing to practice it but polygamy is not a required practice. http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_polygamy/Brigham_Young_said_that_the_only_men_who_become_gods_are_those_that_practice_polygamy has some quotes that give that idea.

[Alan]

If Brigham was right about this, we are all wasting our time.

We either need to join the fundamentalists, or do what apostle Richard Lyman did and keep it quiet.

[Teancum]

One thing Brigham Young was right about is that we should not trust them!

Not until we get a personal confirmation from the Holy Spirit that what they are asking us to do or believe, is correct. We are under no obligation if we have no confirmation. In fact, one of his greatest fears for the saints was that they wouldn't do this and would just trust their leaders. He said no saint who does that can ever achieve celestial glory.

So if Brigham was wrong about polygamy how can I trust what you say he said above?

[Alan]

So if Brigham was wrong about polygamy how can I trust what you say he said above?

Yeah, I thought that.

I guess we just have to take it to the Lord. But wait..... that's what Brigham said we should do!

[Tacenda]

Did you know that anyone can look at church archive documents now? Brian Hales mentioned it in one of the recent podcasts. He needed correct information for his soon to be released book. He said they are more open to having people request to see documents now. Though there was a person standing there observing. He said anyone can do it. Well, maybe not the Tanner's, lol. But all he did was request it from the church, not sure the department. He said it only took a week and he was in there! Cool, huh.

[Teancum]

Can I CFR the 25%? That seems a little high. http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_polygamy/Prevalence_of_in_Utah puts it between 15-20%.

And what I've read of the quotes, you have to accept polygamy and be willing to practice it but polygamy is not a required practice. http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_polygamy/Brigham_Young_said_that_the_only_men_who_become_gods_are_those_that_practice_polygamy has some quotes that give that idea.

http://www.mormonwiki.com/%22Mormon%22_Polygamy:

The True Nature of Polygamy in UtahThe raids and attacks of the 1880s make it appear that all Mormons were living in polygamy. Though records are not always clear, their clarity deliberately obscured to prevent govern

ment officers from easily finding polygamists, it is clear that only a minority ever practiced polygamy. Estimates are that at maximum 20 to 25 percent of the Church at any given time was practicing it; some estimates place it as low as 5 percent. Approximately one third of women in the 1880s lived in polygamous families. The 1,300 men arrested is certainly a small percentage of the nearly 150,000 Mormons at the time and that number approached 200,000 by 1890. Some people, anti-Mormons and even some Mormons, have tried to claim that Mormon prophets of the nineteenth century said that every man must practice polygamy to get into heaven, but this is a distortion of the truth. In 1866, John Taylor, who succeeded Brigham Young as President of the Church said:

When this system was first introduced among this people, it was one of the greatest crosses that ever was taken up by any set of men since the world stood. Joseph Smith told others; he told me, and I can bear witness of it, "that if this principle was not introduced, this Church and kingdom could not proceed." When this commandment was given, it was so far religious, and so far binding upon the Elders of this Church, that it was told them if they were not prepared to enter into it, and to stem the torrent of opposition that would come in consequence of it, the keys of the kingdom would be taken from them. When I see any of our people, men or women, opposing a principle of this kind, I have years ago set them down as on the high road to apostasy, and I do to-day; I consider them apostates, and not interested in this Church and kingdom (John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 11:221).

Here he clearly says that it is the principle that must be accepted, just as men are expected to accept every principle and revelation from God. He says men must be ‘prepared’ to enter into it and defend it, even though they may not be required to do so. If one considers that when he said that the majority of those listening were not practicing polygamy and were never asked to do so, it becomes clear that they understood this to mean that they must accept the principle as a revelation from God in order to enter heaven, since Jesus taught that man must live on “every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” (Matthew 4:4).

So yes FAIR presents the must practice it to be exalted as you state. My read without the spin reaches a different conclusion.

[webbles]

http://www.mormonwik...ormon"_Polygamy:

The True Nature of Polygamy in UtahThe raids and attacks of the 1880s make it appear that all Mormons were living in polygamy. Though records are not always clear, their clarity deliberately obscured to prevent govern

ment officers from easily finding polygamists, it is clear that only a minority ever practiced polygamy. Estimates are that at maximum 20 to 25 percent of the Church at any given time was practicing it; some estimates place it as low as 5 percent. Approximately one third of women in the 1880s lived in polygamous families. The 1,300 men arrested is certainly a small percentage of the nearly 150,000 Mormons at the time and that number approached 200,000 by 1890. Some people, anti-Mormons and even some Mormons, have tried to claim that Mormon prophets of the nineteenth century said that every man must practice polygamy to get into heaven, but this is a distortion of the truth. In 1866, John Taylor, who succeeded Brigham Young as President of the Church said:

When this system was first introduced among this people, it was one of the greatest crosses that ever was taken up by any set of men since the world stood. Joseph Smith told others; he told me, and I can bear witness of it, "that if this principle was not introduced, this Church and kingdom could not proceed." When this commandment was given, it was so far religious, and so far binding upon the Elders of this Church, that it was told them if they were not prepared to enter into it, and to stem the torrent of opposition that would come in consequence of it, the keys of the kingdom would be taken from them. When I see any of our people, men or women, opposing a principle of this kind, I have years ago set them down as on the high road to apostasy, and I do to-day; I consider them apostates, and not interested in this Church and kingdom (John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 11:221).

Here he clearly says that it is the principle that must be accepted, just as men are expected to accept every principle and revelation from God. He says men must be ‘prepared’ to enter into it and defend it, even though they may not be required to do so. If one considers that when he said that the majority of those listening were not practicing polygamy and were never asked to do so, it becomes clear that they understood this to mean that they must accept the principle as a revelation from God in order to enter heaven, since Jesus taught that man must live on “every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” (Matthew 4:4).

So yes FAIR presents the must practice it to be exalted as you state. My read without the spin reaches a different conclusion.

Thanks.

I read that article and it also mentions that polygamy is not a requirement for exaltation. I don't think it is a "spin" when those quotes are pretty clear that it isn't required. Sure, there are quotes that are pretty clear that it is a requirement, but when you take all the quotes and the fact that at most 20-25% of families practiced polygamy, it paints the picture of being required to accept it but not to actually practice it.

[EllenMaksoud]

There is a comprehensive 3-volume description of Joseph Smith's polygamy from the perspective of aMormon apologist. This will soon be published.

Website from the author is here:

http://josephsmithspolygamy.com/

This site and books deals with all the controversial aspects and shows the way a knowledgable believer can make it through this quagmire.

I am not sure why this issue continues to surface, and the fact that the URL given is not an authorised LDS site has me a bit suspicious. In round numbers this all happened about 180 years ago, not that long after the last battle with the UK. We don't keep dredging up reasons to punish the ungrateful colonists for their afrontery do we? I know that officially polygamy ended in 1890, and it is well documented that certain members continued it until 1949. The practice continues today in Hilldale and Bountiful BC but these are not LDS folk.

Of most importance to me, however is who the LDS church is in 2013, and in my estimation, it has matured to be an entirely admirable organisation. Oh to sure there will be members who have certain complaints as I do once in a while.

It makes me somewhat suspicious that anyone would try to open a new discussion of the subject because the longer it is since the events, the less chance we have to get at the truth.

[Nevo]

It is true that most Church members did not practice polygamy, but the number that did was not small. The saints in Utah generally practiced plural marriage as much as they could.

As Kathryn Daynes summarizes in the most recent issue of BYU Studies Quarterly, "in the wake of the Mormon Reformation, prevalence of polygyny was high, too high to be perpetuated, and it thereafter declined to demographically sustainable levels, although the absolute numbers of polygamous husbands and wives continued to increase. In his path-breaking study, Stanley S. Ivins a half century ago claimed that plurality was unpopular and that as the proportion of Saints entering plural marriage had demonstrably declined over time, he claimed, 'Left to itself, undisturbed by pressure from without, the church would inevitably have given up the practice of polygamy, perhaps even sooner than it did under pressure.' More recent studies and the theoretical work of Bitton and Lambson point to a different paradigm: the relative decline in the proportion living in plural marriages was a demographic necessity to bring down the prevalence to sustainable levels, even as the numbers practicing the Principle rose. When Reynolds v. United States was decided in 1879 and the Edmunds Act passed in 1882, two federal government actions paving the way for active prosecution of polygamists, plural marriage was in fact thriving in Utah. Although levels varied throughout Mormondom by 1880, in Manti, a fairly typical town, it remained near the upper limits of sustainability" (Kathryn M. Daynes, "Striving to Live the Principle in Utah’s First Temple City: A Snapshot of Polygamy in St. George, Utah, in June 1880," BYU Studies Quarterly 51, no. 4 [2012]: 82–83).

[juliann]

So yes FAIR presents the must practice it to be exalted as you state. My read without the spin reaches a different conclusion.

FWIW, what you are quoting isn't from FAIR.