Seek For Truth Etc "Whatever The Source May Be..."

[Tacenda]

We are a little short on sermons about building handcarts and preparing to leave our homes in Nauvoo also. Come to think of it when was the last time we got a good rousing lesson on loose women exposing their ankles in public? Ahhh good times.

Hahaha

ETA: Have you read the thread Kevin? I was responding to Ahab when he said that all one needed to do is think of any issue they have and look for those that hold the "keys" and their answers in conference.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Tacenda

[canard78]

You'll notice I did not suggest that you go to any member or "the majority" of members or some random member, but rather a person you trust who is knowledgeable (or at least open to discuss) about these subjects. It has been my experience that you can find somebody like that in most congregations.

Thanks for clarifying. I would agree that it's valuable to have someone to discuss it with, especially if they are well read. But I wouldn't go to them to get the original information. There are so many primary sources that I aim to go to those where possible.

[go_utes01]

Thanks for clarifying. I would agree that it's valuable to have someone to discuss it with, especially if they are well read. But I wouldn't go to them to get the original information. There are so many primary sources that I aim to go to those where possible.

My response was to a claim that you cannot "discuss" these issues in a church setting. I totally agree that we should be doing our part in answering or studying the points of doctrine/history/whatever that we are interested in/have questions about. This includes studying "from the best books", pondering about those things we come into contact with, praying to Heavenly Father for guidance and inspiration, and being open to receiving that guidance and inspiration when it comes.

[canard78]

We are a little short on sermons about building handcarts and preparing to leave our homes in Nauvoo also. Come to think of it when was the last time we got a good rousing lesson on loose women exposing their ankles in public? Ahhh good times.

Short on sermons about handcarts... To quote Michael Caine, thaasands of them: https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=safari&tbo=d&q=site%3Alds.org+handcart&oq=site%3Alds.org+handcart&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.3...14421.19232.0.20013.15.14.0.0.0.1.287.2647.1j7j6.14.0.les%3B..0.0...1ac.1.DpQKkWIbQ5Q

I've not seen you on here for a while. Were you one of the posters who actually spent time with your family over the holidays?

[Ahab]

Hahaha

ETA: Have you read the thread Kevin? I was responding to Ahab when he said that all one needed to do is think of any issue they have and look for those that hold the "keys" and their answers in conference.

On older issues you'll sometimes need to look at older records to get the best information available, though. And even then, you'll still need to sort out the false reports and testimonies from the truth where it is, however you can find it.

[canard78]

My response was to a claim that you cannot "discuss" these issues in a church setting. I totally agree that we should be doing our part in answering or studying the points of doctrine/history/whatever that we are interested in/have questions about. This includes studying "from the best books", pondering about those things we come into contact with, praying to Heavenly Father for guidance and inspiration, and being open to receiving that guidance and inspiration when it comes.

I agree that it's not appropriate to discuss the uncomfortable aspects of church history in Subday School etc. The detailed, uncorrelated history of the church disturbs some people to the point of destroying their faith.

My concern about one of the lines from Elder Uchtdorf's talk is about comparing some Mormon information on the Internet to websites that claim some celebs are aliens. To ridicule is to trivialise it and to excuse them not engaging with some of the genuine concerns it raises.

[go_utes01]

My concern about one of the lines from Elder Uchtdorf's talk is about comparing some Mormon information on the Internet to websites that claim some celebs are aliens. To ridicule is to trivialise it and to excuse them not engaging with some of the genuine concerns it raises.

Some information about the LDS Church on the internet is just as trivial and ridiculous as claims that some celebs are aliens, wouldn't you agree? I do not believe he is trying to belittle the real questions about real, viable concerns - but some things on the internet are ridiculous, right?

[thesometimesaint]

But it's my fault for feeling this way apparently. But thank you for your patience and not slamming me down to the curb, for thinking this. You don't know how grateful I am for that.

Of course it is your fault. Own your own feelings.

JS was just as human as the rest of us. But he did have a special calling as the lead prophet of the Restoration. I don't believe polygamy was a mistake. Though I just as glad we don't have to practice it today.

[canard78]

Some information about the LDS Church on the internet is just as trivial and ridiculous as claims that some celebs are aliens, wouldn't you agree? I do not believe he is trying to belittle the real questions about real, viable concerns - but some things on the internet are ridiculous, right?

I do agree that some info is as bad as the notion that celebs are aliens. I'd have to go and listen to the full quote again, but given the majority of the Internet information on the church (eg Wikipedia) is problematic but also at least referenced (if still subjective), I felt the only statement he made was to ridicule anything that came from a non-Mormon source.

[Calm]

Who said it has to be outside a "church setting"? What do you even mean by that anyways? You can speak with a memner in the church building or in their home and I think that would fit within my definition of a church (faithful) setting.

Firesides are a good option. The wards I have been in for the last 20ish years have had experts on certain historical subjects come in and discuss them....some have even been decently attended. Find out who is in charge of firesides in your ward, find someone who you would want to hear and see if they are available and then make the suggestion to the fireside guy. In my experience, they love suggestions that are workable.

Anybody have a good explanation for why the church omits the plural wives in this instance? Seems pretty blatant to me.

I think the leadership and/or writers of church curriculum have yet to discover how to balance attitudes of today with the teachings and stories of the past and have chosen to err on the side of caution. With the commitment to getting out primary source material so that professional historians can deal with all of it, including the uncomfortable bits, I believe one will start seeing more and more of the controversial historical stuff dealt with as more information becomes available, such as the revelation dealing with the copyright of the Book of Mormon: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705337036/Newly-found-revelation-of-Joseph-Smith.html?pg=all

I am wondering how much longer it will be before they update the Institute manual for the Church History course. Not only is it used for that class, but the Church put it up online at lds.org several years ago and was promoting it for a bit. However, it has been in use since at least 89 and as this review in BYU Studies states, its treatment is pretty shallow even if the pictures are nice: https://byustudies.byu.edu/showtitle.aspx?title=7489 An updated version that is more indepth is needed and one would think about due sometime soon, it being over 20 years now since the last one was done.

Not all institute manuals are bland and shallow (see https://byustudies.b...aspx?title=7821 for an example), none need be imo.

Edited January 19, 2013 by calmoriah

[canard78]

Firesides are a good option. The wards I have been in for the last 20ish years have had experts on certain historical subjects come in and discuss them....some have even been decently attended. Find out who is in charge of firesides in your ward, find someone who you would want to hear and see if they are available and then make the suggestion to the fireside guy. In my experience, they love suggestions that are workable.

I think the leadership and/or writers of church curriculum have yet to discover how to balance attitudes of today with the teachings and stories of the past and have chosen to err on the side of caution. With the commitment to getting out primary source material so that professional historians can deal with all of it, including the uncomfortable bits, I believe one will start seeing more and more of the controversial historical stuff dealt with as more information becomes available, such as the revelation dealing with the copyright of the Book of Mormon: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705337036/Newly-found-revelation-of-Joseph-Smith.html?pg=all

I am wondering how much longer it will be before they update the Institute manual for the Church History course. Not only is it used for that class, but the Church put it up online at lds.org several years ago and was promoting it for a bit. However, it has been in use since at least 89 and as this review in BYU Studies states, its treatment is pretty shallow even if the pictures are nice: https://byustudies.byu.edu/showtitle.aspx?title=7489 An updated version that is more indepth is needed and one would think about due sometime soon, it being over 20 years now since the last one was done.

Not all institute manuals are bland and shallow (see https://byustudies.b...aspx?title=7821 for an example), none need be imo.

It's a dilemma I wouldn't want. Do you speak openly about the history and risk hurting those who wouldn't otherwise care to look or be focus on the historical basics but risk people experiencing the shock of discovering the details (often in a negative environment and with a critical spin).

They do seem to be making some effort. The Jan 13 ensign mentions the seer stones... even though the Dec 12 Ensign has the old face to face with plates image which perpetuates the myth of a more 'normal' translation.

The new Lorenzo Snow manual also mentions 2 of 6 polygamous marriages and his imprisonment for doing so.

[changed]

...Knowing for ourselves is not an opportunity, it is an obligation...

this is what it comes down to for me:

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. (Book of Mormon | Moroni 10:4 - 5)

I don't know the details of how everything works out, but I have had enough Spiritual experiences that I trust God really is directing this church.

[DBMormon]

I don't believe the oft-repeated claim that the Church hides its history. It may not discuss all of its history in all situations, appropriately I might add. If you want to know the history, it is available. Do you believe President Monson should say Joseph Smith "applied polygamy in a questionable manner" at conference or to the media? Do you think that would help the mission of the Church? There is a time and place for all things, "to everything there is a season."

If one wants to know about Polyandry, what Church source would you recommend they go to? not a members book, or FAIR, but a church source?

My point is while the info may be available in the world, the Church does indeed choose to not share some of it's history. Now I am also willing to see that not sharing some info can be the right thing to do as well, but it is not fair to say the church doesn't hide info, as to an extent it does.

Edited January 21, 2013 by DBMormon

[canard78]

I can't edit my first two posts so for completeness wanted to post a link to the full talk:

http://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ces-devotionals/2013/01/what-is-truth?lang=eng

Some of my favourite parts:

Latter-day Saints are not asked to blindly accept everything they hear. We are encouraged to think and discover truth for ourselves. We are expected to ponder, to search, to evaluate, and thereby to come to a personal knowledge of the truth...

We seek for truth wherever we may find it. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “Mormonism is truth. … The first and fundamental principle of our holy religion is, that we believe that we have a right to embrace all, and every item of truth, without limitation or … being … prohibited by the creeds or superstitious notions of men.”

Yes, we do have the fulness of the everlasting gospel, but that does not mean that we know everything. In fact, one principle of the restored gospel is our belief that God “will yet reveal many great and important things.”

... So we continually seek truth from all good books and other wholesome sources. “If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.” In this manner we can resist the deceit of the evil one. In this manner we learn the truth “precept upon precept; line upon line.” And we will learn that intelligence cleaves unto intelligence, and wisdom receives wisdom, and truth embraces truth.