Seek For Truth Etc "Whatever The Source May Be..."

[Ahab]

I thought the talk was a major disappointment, seems like it was just a follow up from Elder Cook's poor talk last conference. If you found information that is contradictory from what you have heard in church the information is false. I'm not going to tell why it's false or what the truth actually is but it's false. If you have a problem with the false information then Satan is deceiving you. I have the truth, I'm not going to tell you the truth but I have it. The talk was just a bunch of smoke and mirrors and full of victim blaming. Instead of manning up and correcting some or any false information he vaguely identifies it and tosses the problem on the truth searcher.

This kind of talk is the kind of talk I enjoy the most. It really does come down to whether or not we are learning from God or Satan, and rather than just believe someone else when they say something is true or not true, we should go directly to the source of truth to find out what is true.

People who keep looking for mentors or tutors other than God keep missing the mark. We really don't need them, because we all can communicate with God directly.

It is nice to find other people who agree with what God has told or will tell me, though, and I find more people in the Church than outside it to tell me the kind of information I love to learn of the most.

[David T]

People who keep looking for mentors or tutors other than God keep missing the mark. We really don't need them, because we all can communicate with God directly.

I don't think that's the message at all - especially with the Church's positions and emphasis on education and teaching. I would amend it to say "People who keep relying solely on mentors or tutors without God's influence and guidance keep missing the mark."

In many cases, these assistants give us material that equip us with and open and direct our minds with great questions to seek divine inspiration with.

[Ahab]

I don't think that's the message at all - especially with the Church's positions and emphasis on education and teaching. I would amend it to say "People who keep relying solely on mentors or tutors without God's influence and guidance keep missing the mark."

In many cases, these assistants give us material that equip us with and open and direct our minds with great questions to seek divine inspiration with.

How do you know if what they say is true or good, though. If you're relying on them, or their tips, I'd still say you're missing the mark.

I realize that God does communicate through other people, though, David. It's when what you're hearing is good that he has.

[omni]

The link below is enough to make me believe things are hidden. Joseph Smith has Emma as his one and only wife listed in "Significant Events", BY has no marriage/wife as being significant and the following Presidents do not have wives/marriages listed until you get to George A. Smith, and from then on they have listed wives. Because all the presidents from JS to Heber J. Grant are polygamists. The reason they have to include Emma and not the other presidents wives, to me, is that they can't leave out Emma because in so many minds she is the only wife to JS.

https://www.lds.org/churchhistory/presidents/leaders.jsp

Anybody have a good explanation for why the church omits the plural wives in this instance? Seems pretty blatant to me.

[David T]

How do you know if what they say is true or good, though. If you're relying on them, or their tips, I'd still say you're missing the mark.

I realize that God does communicate through other people, though, David. It's when what you're hearing is good that he has.

There's a difference between relying on, and seeking to learn from. The counsel is not to take anything for granted, but to do our own - secular and spiritual - confirmation. In many cases, I have learned wonderful things and pursued courses and developed questions I would not have otherwise by investigating erroneous ideas that had offered to me.

Teachers - including scriptural writings, scientific texts, and simply the experience of others - are powerful catalysts to asking inspired questions.

[Ahab]

If it is NOT the mission of the church to teach church history, l say let's skip this year's curriculum on church history and study Christ only, vs. by vs., story by story.

The mission of the Church is to direct people to Jesus Christ, from whom they can learn the truth of all things.

So, if you want to learn about history or what really happened, fine. Just learn about that from Jesus Christ as you come to him and he communicates with you with the help of our Father and the Holy Spirit.

If other people share their ideas with you that can be fine, too, just check what they say with God (the Father through Jesus and the Holy Spirit) to find out if what they are saying is true. If it is true, it's basically the same thing God has said or will say to you, because all truth is of God.

Ultimately, you just need to learn directly from God, as if what he (along with Jesus and the Holy Ghost) say to you is all that matters to you.

That's the main message you should continuallly hear from the true Church of Jesus Christ. Go to him. He'll teach you the truth of all things, eventually.

[Biz]

This kind of talk is the kind of talk I enjoy the most. It really does come down to whether or not we are learning from God or Satan, and rather than just believe someone else when they say something is true or not true, we should go directly to the source of truth to find out what is true.

People who keep looking for mentors or tutors other than God keep missing the mark. We really don't need them, because we all can communicate with God directly.

It is nice to find other people who agree with what God has told or will tell me, though, and I find more people in the Church than outside it to tell me the kind of information I love to learn of the most.

I agree, through pondering and praying God has answered questions I have had regarding the Church. For Example, I used to have concerns and issues with the priesthood ban, through study and prayer I received an answer and this is my answer:

"The priesthood ban was solely created by men and was a poor policy decision that affected millions of lives for the worse, God neither started it nor specifically ended it."

God, has answered that question for me. Fortunately this conclusion is not in harmony with what I had learned previously in the Church. It's neither False nor from Satan, in fact I believe the ban was from Satan. However, such a conclusion would likely not be the truth according to President Uchtdorf's talk or the truth according to philosophy of the 15 Apostles.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Biz

[Kenngo1969]

If it is NOT the mission of the church to teach church history, l say let's skip this year's curriculum on church history and study Christ only, vs. by vs., story by story.

Yeah. After all, Christ doesn't have anything to do with the history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or with the Doctrine & Covenants.

Oh, wait ...

[Biz]

Anybody have a good explanation for why the church omits the plural wives in this instance? Seems pretty blatant to me.

Yes, I did my due diligence as a gospel learner and after having read Church history books, attended regular church services, served a faithful two year mission, graduated seminary and institute, and having read numerous books from Deseret Book while growing up it took me 25 years of gospel activity to discover Joseph Smith had more than one wife.

Crazy! But of course if I looked closely or read this or read that I would have found it. I read everything I could have read.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Biz

[Biz]

Biz,

You display much angst in your response. You are missing a key piece of the puzzle that I am sure you comprehend the concept superficially but you have not embraced it. It is incumbent on every member of the church to fulfill and complete the 2 part process of their baptism. Receiving the Holy Ghost is required before you will have the answers you keep hoping someone else will give you.

To simply be able to have others explain things to you circumvents the education of learning how to receive revelation. In your quote above you seem to be stating that you do not believe what is being said about Satan deceiving you with false information and that would be corrected if someone would simply tell you the truth. The brethren are wise enough to realize that only those who will develop the proper repentant relationship with the Holy Ghost will ever be able to "hear" the truth. For them to circumvent the process and simply answer all of your questions will never make you strong enough to be an independently strong, stable, valiant servant and you will simply remain what you clearly are at this time. Because it does not work to explain more than is prudent, they do not do it. The process of developing that knowledge of how Christ's teaches each one of children independently according to the deed and diligence they give unto him that has left you in this lurch at this time. It will not change until you change and there are no answers that will appease your frustration except for the Holy Ghost.

Yes, while most of my anger is gone it does flare up now and again. I appreciate your advice and thoughts. What nerves me is this, if there are, "Truths Eternal" as Pres. Uchtdorf says there are and he knows them and he is aware of people finding out misinformation from other sources that contradicts these, "Eternal Truths" he has a duty to correct them does he not? If people are reading all these contradictory things online and they contradict, "Eternal Truths," as Gods chosen prophet, seer, and revelator, is he not under a duty to at least identify or correct the falsity? Yes, he should be!

Instead, he alludes he is aware of these falsities and does nothing to correct them or explain why the falsities are false. It blows my mind, if it's so important why hide the ball like that? If it goes against anything you learned previously in Church it's False but I'm not going to tell you why the new information is False other than Satan has deceived you.

Not a great teacher if you ask me, but of course, I guess I'm a poor student.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Biz

[Biz]

Delete

Edited January 15, 2013 by Biz

[go_utes01]

Yes, while most of my anger is gone it does flare up now and again. I appreciate your advice and thoughts. What nerves me is this, if there are, "Truths Eternal" as Pres. Uchtdorf says there are and he knows them and he is aware of people finding out misinformation from other sources that contradicts these, "Eternal Truths" he has a duty to correct them does he not? If people are reading all these contradictory things online and they contradict, "Eternal Truths," as Gods chosen prophet, seer, and revelator, is he not under a duty to at least identify or correct the falsity? Yes, he should be!

Instead, he alludes he is aware of these falsities and does nothing to correct them or explain why the falsities are false. It blows my mind, if it's so important why hide the ball like that? If it goes against anything you learned previously in Church it's False but I'm not going to tell you why the new information is False other than Satan has deceived you.

Not a great teacher if you ask me, but of course, I guess I'm a poor student.

So you believe it would be wise for the presidency of the Church to burden itself with pointing out and contradicting each and every falsity that may exist on the internet. Even those pertaining solely to the Church would be more than a full-time job. Contradicting false information is not the first presidency's calling. In any event, Pres. Uchdorf explained the process by which we could find the eternal truths necessary for our personal salvation. If the Church spoon-fed an answer to every question, how would the members learn how to test their faith and grow in understanding and experience? As Joseph Smith proclaimed, his duty was "to teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves." For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is ^acompelled in all things, the same is a ^bslothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

Edited January 15, 2013 by go_utes01

[Ahab]

I agree, through pondering and praying God has answered questions I have had regarding the Church. For Example, I used to have concerns and issues with the priesthood ban, through study and prayer I received an answer and this is my answer:

"The priesthood ban was solely created by men and was a poor policy decision that affected millions of lives for the worse, God neither started it nor specifically ended it."

God, has answered that question for me. Fortunately this conclusion is not in harmony with what I had learned previously in the Church. It's neither False nor from Satan, in fact I believe the ban was from Satan. However, such a conclusion would likely not be the truth according to President Uchtdorf's talk or the truth according to philosophy of the 15 Apostles.

While reading what you say is God's answer to you I got a thought about something I heard in the movie 'Lincoln', which I recently saw. Have you seen it? Do you recall what he told Stevens about following a compass pointing true north, into a swamp? Do you understand the connection with the abolishment of slavery? It's not always a matter of knowing what is right and just doing it, because not everybody would be ready to go that way. Sometimes it is necessary to take a detour to get where you want to eventually be.

[Biz]

So you believe it would be wise for the presidency of the Church to burden itself with pointing out and contradicting each and every falsity that may exist on the internet.

I do actually, men hold men to this standard, I don't see why God's servants can't be held to the same standard. Plus, Jesus taught this way... It has been said... But I say... If there are Material Misrepresentations of truths that are affecting God's children's salvation then by all means that is the front lines for the salvation of God's children. To be honest, I can't think of a better way for them to spend their time. After all, they would be declaring the truth which is why God has called them to be his servants. Furthermore, instead of publishing them through the LDS news room, I would expect them to correct these misrepresentations in general conferences or in official talks like the one President Uchtdorf gave last night.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Biz

[Ahab]

I do actually, men hold men to this standard, I don't see why God's servants can't be held to the same standard. Plus, Jesus taught this way... It has been said... But I say... If there are Material Misrepresentations of truths that are affecting God's children's salvation then by all means that is the front lines for the salvation of God's children. To be honest, I can't think of a better way for them to spend their time. After all, they would be declaring the truth which is why God has called them to be his servants. Furthermore, instead of publishing them through the LDS news room, I would expect them to correct these misrepresentations in general conferences or in official talks like the one President Uchtdorf gave last night.

No need to worry. They do and actually already have corrected every false idea we have and have had on this planet.

They just can't make people believe what is true instead of the falsehoods they would rather believe.

Think of any issue you can imagine and then go look for what those with the keys have had to say about it in conference.

[SamIam]

Yes, while most of my anger is gone it does flare up now and again. I appreciate your advice and thoughts. What nerves me is this, if there are, "Truths Eternal" as Pres. Uchtdorf says there are and he knows them and he is aware of people finding out misinformation from other sources that contradicts these, "Eternal Truths" he has a duty to correct them does he not? If people are reading all these contradictory things online and they contradict, "Eternal Truths," as Gods chosen prophet, seer, and revelator, is he not under a duty to at least identify or correct the falsity? Yes, he should be!

Instead, he alludes he is aware of these falsities and does nothing to correct them or explain why the falsities are false. It blows my mind, if it's so important why hide the ball like that? If it goes against anything you learned previously in Church it's False but I'm not going to tell you why the new information is False other than Satan has deceived you.

Not a great teacher if you ask me, but of course, I guess I'm a poor student.

Most of us are poor students, until we realize what it takes to be a better student. In your response you illustrate two specific things that I believe merit note in order to be illustrious of aspects of where you are in the process.

Number one: you responded very well considering the bluntness of my comments to you. This is part of the process of me getting a view into someones heart to evaluate whether or not they are even trying or if they just want to spew venom and get stuff off their chest with no intent of resolution. You did very well. Frequently, I get the " you arrogant jerk, who do you think you are" response and that eliminates me trying to figure anything further out of what I think will help them along the path. However, once again it is important to note you took a reasoned approach and made no rash judgments. Very Good.

Number two: This one is not so good. You did not pay even a moments notice to what I said other than the surface read and respond process that this type of forum invites. IF it comes down to the fact that in order to understand God has to teach us himself (and it does) and the general authorities understand that it is not just knowing the truth but even more importantly developing the skills to use the spirit to find the truth then it is a waste of time to simply spew out information and condemning the hearers with more than they can reasonably understand. These skills of listening to the spirit are becoming the spiritual lifelines for those who truly want to make it through the future events of their lives. To spoon feed the info without requiring the effort will only condemn the hearers and not benefit them at all leaving them unable to fend for themselves against troubled times. Do you reasonably expect the General Authorities to be so callus in their efforts?

Hopefully you won't mind, but I am going to pull this off forum and PM you direct. We can go from there...

I do actually, men hold men to this standard, I don't see why God's servants can't be held to the same standard. Plus, Jesus taught this way... It has been said... But I say... If there are Material Misrepresentations of truths that are affecting God's children's salvation then by all means that is the front lines for the salvation of God's children. To be honest, I can't think of a better way for them to spend their time. After all, they would be declaring the truth which is why God has called them to be his servants. Furthermore, instead of publishing them through the LDS news room, I would expect them to correct these misrepresentations in general conferences or in official talks like the one President Uchtdorf gave last night.

Edited January 15, 2013 by SamIam

[Tacenda]

No need to worry. They do and actually already have corrected every false idea we have and have had on this planet.

They just can't make people believe what is true instead of the falsehoods they would rather believe.

Think of any issue you can imagine and then go look for what those with the keys have had to say about it in conference.

Ahab, I can accept alot in church history because it is a young church and leaders are bound to make mistakes. Culture was miles away from what it is now. I can even understand something to do with polygamy (it was going on with another group even before our leaders taught it, from what I've read), though it was the start of my faith crisis, when learning of the complete history. But not one time has the Presidency within the last 50 yrs. to my knowledge, spoke on the matter of JS's polygamy, in depth, in public or the church magazines. If they did it may have been a blip here or there. But never as a matter that needed to be discussed with importance for those disillisioned by it. And especially not in General Conference.

It is the reason for major disruption (marriages/children separated because of it) to so many Latter Day Saints out there and these are people who were doing everything possible to maintain testimonies and stay on the right path, through scripture study, FHE, temple attendance, callings, and everything else that make up a good LDS. They've given their whole lives to living the Gospel. And have made major life decisions according to their LDS walk, from guidance from parents to leaders, to even Stake Patriarchs. They might have even been a parent that got freaked out about their children not going to church or YM/YW's and reacted badly, enough that the child thought the church was more important (it happens). So if you look at it this way and put yourself in their shoes you will see why they have the anger at being taught a different version of LDS history.

[Biz]

Most of us are poor students, until we realize what it takes to be a better student. In your response you illustrate two specific things that I believe merit note in order to be illustrious of aspects of where you are in the process.

Number one: you responded very well considering the bluntness of my comments to you. This is part of the process of me getting a view into someones heart to evaluate whether or not they are even trying or if they just want to spew venom and get stuff off their chest with no intent of resolution. You did very well. Frequently, I get the " you arrogant jerk, who do you think you are" response and that eliminates me trying to figure anything further out of what I think will help them along the path. However, once again it is important to note you took a reasoned approach and made no rash judgments. Very Good.

Number two: This one is not so good. You did not pay even a moments notice to what I said other than the surface read and respond process that this type of forum invites. IF it comes down to the fact that in order to understand God has to teach us himself (and it does) and the general authorities understand that it is not just knowing the truth but even more importantly developing the skills to use the spirit to find the truth then it is a waste of time to simply spew out information and condemning the hearers with more than they can reasonably understand. These skills of listening to the spirit are becoming the spiritual lifelines for those who truly want to make it through the future events of their lives. To spoon feed the info without requiring the effort will only condemn the hearers and not benefit them at all leaving them unable to fend for themselves against troubled times. Do you reasonably expect the General Authorities to be so callus in their efforts?

Hopefully you won't mind, but I am going to pull this off forum and PM you direct. We can go from there...

I would be happy and pleased to engage you. Thanks!

[go_utes01]

I can even understand something to do with polygamy (it was going on with another group even before our leaders taught it, from what I've read), though it was the start of my faith crisis, when learning of the complete history.

You need to realize that a "complete history" is unattainable. All you get is an interpretation of an interpretation.

[Ahab]

...not one time has the Presidency within the last 50 yrs. to my knowledge, spoke on the matter of JS's polygamy, in depth, in public or the church magazines. If they did it may have been a blip here or there. But never as a matter that needed to be discussed with importance for those disillisioned by it. And especially not in General Conference.

If you care enough about this issue to do an in depth search on the issue, don't limit yourself to sources within only the last 50 years and don't limit yourself to just the President of the Church during that limited time period either. Look for comments made by Joseph or from Emma, directly. They would be a pretty good source of information about their own marriage, or marriages if one was really married to more than one person, as a spouse. If you use other any sources, other than God, just understand that they may not understand correctly.

Also be careful not to confuse Joseph being "sealed" to a woman as the same thing as him taking her as his own wife, because Joseph did some sealings between himself and other women that weren't for the purpose of making those women his wives, or at least not as what a wife is usually considered to be.

Keeping those things in mind should give you the best knowledge we have on those issues, along with asking God to help you understand the truth on these issues. You should already realize there are and have been some false witnesses in the world whose testimonies aren't worthy of any real consideration.

[canard78]

You need to realize that a "complete history" is unattainable. All you get is an interpretation of an interpretation.

But is it appropriate that the church media persist in misrepresenting certain aspects of the foundational events of church restoration?

This youtube video of Joseph and Oliver translating the plates is factually inaccurate (18mins, 37seconds):

Is that depiction, "the truth?" The plates were not present (they were hidden elsewhere) and Joseph put his seer stone in a hat and placed his face in a hat to dictate the words of the book. Some might say, it's representative, it's allegorical, it teaches a principle. That's fine. It's also historically inaccurate. And yet, if (over on the fairy tales thread) someone suggests that Book of Mormon stories might not be historically accurate, there's push-back.

[canard78]

I should add... and I hold my hands up as being a sinner in this regard. A lot of this thread has gone right against the very message in Elder Uchtdorf's talk:

"As you accept the responsibility to seek after truth with an open mind and humble heart... you will be more inclined to build up instead of tearing down. You need not be deceived. You can discover divine truth. Some people seek to show off their supposed learning and thus cause contention. As disciples of Jesus Christ, such contention is inconsistent with the Spirit upon which we depend in our search for truth."

As such, I apologise if I seem to be tearing down, not building up and if I am "showing off my supposed learning" and "causing contention."

I'll reflect on that a while before my next post and would encourage all who participate in this thread to do the same.

[Ahab]

But is it appropriate that the church media persist in misrepresenting certain aspects of the foundational events of church restoration?

This youtube video of Joseph and Oliver translating the plates is factually inaccurate (18mins, 37seconds):

Is that depiction, "the truth?" The plates were not present (they were hidden elsewhere) and Joseph put his seer stone in a hat and placed his face in a hat to dictate the words of the book. Some might say, it's representative, it's allegorical, it teaches a principle. That's fine. It's also historically inaccurate. And yet, if (over on the fairy tales thread) someone suggests that Book of Mormon stories might not be historically accurate, there's push-back.

The question should be: Who are you going to rely on for your knowledge of truth?

I don't think anyone is suggesting you should consider everything a member of the Church says as 100% truth. Some members are wrong on some things, and some non-members are wrong on some things. How are you going to figure out what is actually true? By relying on member's statements? By relying on non-member's statements? How about relying on God?

[go_utes01]

The question should be: Who are you going to rely on for your knowledge of truth?

I don't think anyone is suggesting you should consider everything a member of the Church says as 100% truth. Some members are wrong on some things, and some non-members are wrong on some things. How are you going to figure out what is actually true? By relying on member's statements? By relying on non-member's statements? How about relying on God?

This is the whole point of President Uchdorf's talk. We are able to study things out for ourselves and receive guidance and inspiration from the source of all truth - for our Savior truly is the "way, the truth, and the light..." It is through this process that we learn to recognize the influence of the Holy Spirit and are able to grow and learn line upon line, precept upon precept. We learn to receive more and more light until the coming of perfect day. That which is of God is ^alight; and he that ^breceiveth ^clight, and^dcontinueth in God, receiveth more ^elight; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.

[KevinG]

...not one time has the Presidency within the last 50 yrs. to my knowledge, spoke on the matter of JS's polygamy, in depth, in public or the church magazines.

We are a little short on sermons about building handcarts and preparing to leave our homes in Nauvoo also. Come to think of it when was the last time we got a good rousing lesson on loose women exposing their ankles in public? Ahhh good times.