Swords Into Plowshares Redux

[Mark Beesley]

From the last post in the Swords into Plowshares thread, commentary from an anonymous Moderator:

This thread is political, sorry.

No, it wasn't.

Some of the posters posted derailing comments, and they should have been warned rather than closing the thread. But the thread itself was apolitical.

[canard78]

Gun ownership in USA is always going to end up political though?

[blackstrap]

When it is said that , " they shall LEARN war no more " it implies that there will be no reason for any type of self defence, even boxing or whatever. It Implies that man's nature will have been changed to the point that love of his neighbor will preclude any feelings of anger or discontent or territorial asperations, etc.

We have a long way to go.

[blackstrap]

As for the OP, I didn't see anything partisan or political but I am not sensitized like the mods. Perhaps this 'Muligan' will succeed.

Edited January 15, 2013 by blackstrap

[Questing Beast]

The reason why the guns topic goes political is because some people are control freaks, on both sides. They cannot agree to disagree because the existence of the opposite kind of thinking is an open threat to them. Some people want to remold the world in their image and will use force if necessary. That is the fear the other side has. Nobody wants to be helpless in a threatening situation. That is the apolitical aspect; but the approach to getting "there" is worlds apart....

[gurn]

Pacifism is certainly compatible with Christian thought, but so is defense of one’s self and others. So I'll tell you what, I’ll let you be a pacifist and I’ll keep my firearms. I’ll accept you as a faithful member of the church and you will offer me the same consideration.

I’m a responsible adult and capable of determining what firearms might be necessary for my defense. While you might not foresee a situation where a 30 round magazine might be necessary, I can.

It’s an old say, but certainly has some truth. The man who beats his sword into a plowshare, will plow the field of the man that didn’t. Unfortunately we live in a world governed by the aggressive use of force.

Edited January 15, 2013 by gurn

[Darren10]

From the last post in the Swords into Plowshares thread, commentary from an anonymous Moderator:

Quote

This thread is political, sorry.

No, it wasn't.

Some of the posters posted derailing comments, and they should have been warned rather than closing the thread. But the thread itself was apolitical.

Here's how you introduced your "nonpolitical" thread (bold mine):

Given the statistics that gun ownership results in more friendly fire than enemy fire, it is debatable whether people need them even now. In any case, even the rationale of owning a gun for self-protection cannot justify many of the types of guns on the market today, and it is likely that in the coming year or so we will a major push (hopefully successfully) towards making the ownership of those guns, magazines, and bullets unlawful.

How was that not political?

That said my response would have been:

a) Bearing arms is a natural right and government should not get involved in taking away people's guns.

b) Those who push for gun control inevitably open up more opportunites for crime

c) There are far more people who die from kicking and punching than from guns

d) Death by knives is more common than death by guns

e) Death by "friendly fire" being greater than death by self defense is hogwash

f) The right to bear arms is not about the right to self defense from an attacker. It has more to do with defending oneself against government tyranny and in times of societal breakdowns than anything else

Forbidding people to allow to have guns leads directly to tyranny. The following is brilliant!!!

Gun Advocate Shocks CNN Co-Panelist: Slavery Potentially Wouldn’t Have Happened if Blacks Had Guns

Had the gun rights activist been more aggressive, this would have been so point on in delivery.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Darren10

[Kemara]

I support the right to own firearms, I own plenty myself. What I do with them is my business so long as I dont break any laws, the magazine capacity, the type, make and model of my guns is also my business. Please explain to me why I shouldnt be able to own the type of guns I want; why cant I, me, Kemara, a law abiding citizen of sound mind not be allowed to own whatever firearm I want? To me its not about self defence, its not about having what some may call a legitimate reason to have a gun or a large capacity magazine, its simply about the fact that I want them, so why shouldnt I be able to have them?

[Darren10]

Pacifism is certainly compatible with Christian thought, but so is defense of one’s self and others. So I'll tell you what, I’ll let you be a pacifist and I’ll keep my firearms. I’ll accept you as a faithful member of the church and you will offer me the same consideration.

Akin to that, here's the best take anywhere on being both a soldier and a saint:

War and Peace

Edited January 15, 2013 by Darren10

[Darren10]

I support the right to own firearms, I own plenty myself. What I do with them is my business so long as I dont break any laws, the magazine capacity, the type, make and model of my guns is also my business. Please explain to me why I shouldnt be able to own the type of guns I want; why cant I, me, Kemara, a law abiding citizen of sound mind not be allowed to own whatever firearm I want? To me its not about self defence, its not about having what some may call a legitimate reason to have a gun or a large capacity magazine, its simply about the fact that I want them, so why shouldnt I be able to have them?

Exactly!!! Superb response to those who say, "you don't need that many bullets..."

[Darren10]

The reason why the guns topic goes political is because some people are control freaks, on both sides. They cannot agree to disagree because the existence of the opposite kind of thinking is an open threat to them. Some people want to remold the world in their image and will use force if necessary.

"On both sides"? I hardly see it that way. There's only one side which advocates to use the power of the state to ensure their way reigns supreme.

[sunstoned]

When it is said that , " they shall LEARN war no more " it implies that there will be no reason for any type of self defence, even boxing or whatever. It Implies that man's nature will have been changed to the point that love of his neighbor will preclude any feelings of anger or discontent or territorial asperations, etc.

We have a long way to go.

Boxing is a sport, the same as running or football. It has nothing to do with war. Shooting (target, plinking, hunting) is a sport. It is also separate from war.

I am not a big auto racing fan, but I have no problem with others exercising their right to watch or participate in auto racing, even though it can be a dangerous activity. I like to target shoot. It's not about war, or even self defense. to me, it is just a sport that I like. I hope that others can allow me the right to participate in something that I like to do.

[teddyaware]

From the last post in the Swords into Plowshares thread, commentary from an anonymous Moderator:

No, it wasn't (political).

Some of the posters posted derailing comments, and they should have been warned rather than closing the thread. But the thread itself was apolitical.

Some people make the mistake of conflating a discussion on "politics" with a discussion on the proper, divinely approved role of Government. One is a secular subject; the other is primarily spiritual.

[blackstrap]

Because,Kemara, the "What if Committee " feels that they know better how to make a safe society. Your individual rights are to be superceded by the rights of the collective.

(insert appropriate emoticon)

Edited January 15, 2013 by blackstrap

[Sky]

I hesitate to get into another gun control debate; I'm still licking my wounds from the last one. But I just want to say that I agree President Obama's statement here:

"Those of us who look at this problem have repeatedly said that responsible gun owners, people who have a gun for protection, for hunting, for sportsmanship, they don't have anything to worry about. The issue here is not whether or not we believe in the Second Amendment," he said. "The issue is, are there some sensible steps that we can take to make sure that somebody like the individual in Newtown can't walk into a school and gun down a bunch of children in a shockingly rapid fashion. And surely, we can do something about that."

[blackstrap]

Boxing is a sport, the same as running or football. It has nothing to do with war. Shooting (target, plinking, hunting) is a sport. It is also separate from war.

I am not a big auto racing fan, but I have no problem with others exercising their right to watch or participate in auto racing, even though it can be a dangerous activity. I like to target shoot. It's not about war, or even self defense. to me, it is just a sport that I like. I hope that others can allow me the right to participate in something that I like to do.

Most physical sports and even some not so physical one (chess ) are a war substitute.Note the vocabulary associated with them.

[ERayR]

I hesitate to get into another gun control debate; I'm still licking my wounds from the last one. But I just want to say that I agree President Obama's statement here:

"Those of us who look at this problem have repeatedly said that responsible gun owners, people who have a gun for protection, for hunting, for sportsmanship, they don't have anything to worry about. "

Said the spider to the fly.

[Darren10]

I hesitate to get into another gun control debate; I'm still licking my wounds from the last one. But I just want to say that I agree President Obama's statement here:

"Those of us who look at this problem have repeatedly said that responsible gun owners, people who have a gun for protection, for hunting, for sportsmanship, they don't have anything to worry about. The issue here is not whether or not we believe in the Second Amendment," he said. "The issue is, are there some sensible steps that we can take to make sure that somebody like the individual in Newtown can't walk into a school and gun down a bunch of children in a shockingly rapid fashion. And surely, we can do something about that."

There's a lot of dead people in world history who "trusted" their government for protection.

Also, in light of the several gun control laws violated to carry out the terrible shootings in Newton, what laws would have prevented it? Could you name a few? Most mass shootings in schools have ocurred in Germany which is heavy on gun control. Forbidding guns like the federal gov't. Does for schools only creates open targets.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Darren10

[Darren10]

Has anyone noticed that once the potential of return fire comes upon a mass killer like in schools, that's the point when the shooter stops and takes his own life? And guns are banned in schools which means that the good guys won't bring them.

[wolfcall]

god has laid down some lives in his time and has commanded the death of others. so whos to say god truly hates weapons when he has made his point with weapons before.

[Mudcat]

I don't understand how people think the taking of arms from American citizens will result in the preservation of life, rather than an egregious loss of it.

I don't imagine those that would enforce such policies would be so ill armed as to approach their prey with tranq darts or some such. The horror of it is somewhat laughable in a macabre sense.

[Sky]

There's a lot of dead people in world history who "trusted" their government for protection.

Also, in light of the several gun control laws violated to carry out the terrible shootings in Newton, what laws would have prevented it? Could you name a few? Most mass shootings in schools have ocurred in Germany which is heavy on gun control. Forbidding guns like the federal gov't. Does for schools only creates open targets.

I've made my case for gun control here, and given several references to support my arguments. I'm going to refrain from discussing this any further. I'm done with this.

[Skylla]

Thread is too political.

Skylla