Dating Website For Mormons With Same-Sex Attraction

[Kemara]

I don't believe that homosexuality can be "cured"...

Many former SSA would strongly disagree with you. Please explain what real phenomenon having sound epistemological value your belief is based on that is superior to that of former SSA persons.

[Sky]

The thing is, I find myself sympathizing with many of Smac's and Sethbag's arguments, while also not completely agreeing with either of them. But how can this be, seeing as how they are on the opposite sides of the issue? I'm rather torn at the moment - help!!

The reason why I can sympathize with and understand both arguments is because I have experienced firsthand and continue to experience same-gender attraction in my own life. I'm also an active member of the Church. Yes, I'm gay, if that's the terminology you prefer to use (it makes no difference to me either way). Some of you are aware of this, others not. I'm not one to advertise it much. But my orientation is what it is, and has been what it is for almost my entire life. I didn't choose it anymore than any of you straight guys chose to wake up and like girls.

Unfortunately, I don't foresee my orientation changing anytime during my lifetime here. So, the approach that I try to take is "what can i learn from this?" "How can I best live my life so as to be in harmony with what my understanding is of God's expectations?" Some days I am better at it than other days. Sometimes I fail miserably at it. Sometimes I want to quit. I understand full well, firsthand what the Church expects of me, and it is not exactly equivalent of what they expect from a straight person. I am unable to have a completely fulfilling, satisfying sexual relationship in the same way that I would be able to have if I were a straight person. And please spare me the argument that what is being asked of me is no different than if I were a single, hetero sister, and the opportunity to get married simply passed me by. They may have some parallels to each other, but they are not the same thing.

And I can't just get up and leave the Church, either, as logical and sane of a decision as that may seem to some. The Church has been able to help fill a spiritual void in my life that I don't think I would be able to find elsewhere. Through my membership in the Church, I have learned that I am a son of my Heavenly Father and that I am a part of something much larger than just myself or my current situation. I'm no different than anybody else in the sense that we all have struggles and that I have to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling before the judgement bar of God. I just happen to struggle with something that is poorly understood. There has got to be a more reasonable middle ground than the extremes of either Smac's or Sethbag's positions...

My life is a work in progress; I don't have all the answers to this, and I'm okay with that. That's all I have to say for now...

Edited January 17, 2013 by Sky

[halconero]

The thing is, I find myself sympathizing with many of Smac's and Sethbag's arguments, while also not completely agreeing with either of them. But how can this be, seeing as how they are on the opposite sides of the issue? I'm rather torn at the moment - help!!

The reason why I can sympathize with and understand both arguments is because I have experienced firsthand and continue to experience same-gender attraction in my own life. I'm also an active member of the Church. Yes, I'm gay, if that's the terminology you prefer to use (it makes no difference to me either way). Some of you are aware of this, others not. I'm not one to advertise it much. But my orientation is what it is, and has been what it is for almost my entire life. I didn't choose it anymore than any of you straight guys chose to wake up and like girls.

Unfortunately, I don't foresee my orientation changing anytime during my lifetime here. So, the approach that I try to take is "what can i learn from this?" "How can I best live my life so as to be in harmony with what my understanding is of God's expectations?" Some days I am better at it than other days. Sometimes I fail miserably at it. Sometimes I want to quit. I understand full well, firsthand what the Church expects of me, and it is not exactly equivalent of what they expect from a straight person. I am unable to have a completely fulfilling, satisfying sexual relationship in the same way that I would be able to have if I were a straight person. And please spare me the argument that what is being asked of me is no different than if I were a single, hetero sister, and the opportunity to get married simply passed me by. They may have some parallels to each other, but they are not the same thing.

And I can't just get up and leave the Church, either, as logical and sane of a decision as that may seem to some. The Church has been able to help fill a spiritual void in my life that I don't think I would be able to find elsewhere. Through my membership in the Church, I have learned that I am a son of my Heavenly Father and that I am a part of something much larger than just myself or my current situation. I'm no different than anybody else in the sense that we all have struggles and that I have to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling before the judgement bar of God. I just happen to struggle with something that is poorly understood. There has got to be a more reasonable middle ground than the extremes of either Smac's or Sethbag's positions...

My life is a work in progress; I don't have all the answers to this, and I'm okay with that. That's all I have to say for now...

There is an Israelite, in whom there is no guile...

[go_utes01]

I just happen to struggle with something that is poorly understood. There has got to be a more reasonable middle ground than the extremes of either Smac's or Sethbag's positions...

My life is a work in progress; I don't have all the answers to this, and I'm okay with that. That's all I have to say for now...

I am curious why you find Smac's position that we all have temptations and trials and that while we should all have compassion and sympathy for those that experience difficult trials, that does not mean that we should ignore God's commandments or provide special dispensations for people extreme? Smac, and others, have repeatedly stated that we sympathize and acknowledge the difficulty of the trial. But,that does not change the fact that homosexual behavior is breaking the law of chastity and a sin, right? I appreciate you sharing your experience and position. Heavenly Father loves each of His children, and we are all called to love one another. We all make mistakes and fall short, but He provided a way, the Way, for us to overcome our trials and return home.

Edited January 17, 2013 by go_utes01

[The Nehor]

This is pretty much why I think gay folks are a lot better off, or would be, if they just jettison the LDS church. Teaching a gay person that they have to hate their gayness is, IMHO, an exceedingly unhealthy thing to do.

I try not to worry too much about what is healthy. It would probably be healthier for me to stop worrying about my own sins and the tears that fall trying continuously to deal with them with little real success so far. Again, chopping off one's hand or plucking out an eye would also be unhealthy but the Savior's story there makes it clear that it is better to enter heaven metaphorically (or even literally?) maimed then to keep the evil.

If their homosexuality is something they are born with, for whatever reason, then that really will lead to self-loathing and despair.

Not necessarily. I suppose it could if they fixate on that and nothing else. In the same way if Paul insisted that whatever his thorn in the flesh was defined him he probably would have hated himself too. That whole hate the sin but love the sinner thing does not only apply to other people. Nor does facing temptation lead one to despair. I do not thing Jesus hated himself when he won out over Satan's temptations no matter how sore the temptations were. In the same way Jesus did not loathe mankind after enduring every evil temptation and action any of them ever performed. He loved them. If He can do that to those much worse then me then I can learn to love myself with all my flaws until a better world.

I don't believe that homosexuality can be "cured", so if they loathe the homosexual part of themselves, it will be a lifelong loathing.

Welcome to the LDS life. It is a crash course in humility isn't it? The scriptures do not offer any hope that in this life we can completely remove sinful desires. Everyone I know who sincerely lives the gospel struggles with something.

To paraphrase Boyd K. Packer, "Why would a loving God do that to anyone?"

I have no idea. I am told there is growth and humility and empathy to be found but the hurts seem to outweigh the learning a good portion of the time. I trust there is a good reason. Or perhaps it is just the vagaries of living on this planet with flawed corrupted bodies. Sometimes the Spirit whispers that I am not as accountable as I sometimes imagine myself to be and that there are mitigating factors God has taken into account. I can trace one of my besetting sins back to decisions I made and situations I found myself in when I was about 6 and was supposedly innocent. I do not think I am fully culpable. I imagine that many who struggle with SSA/homosexuality will find that many of their sins will be judged less harshly then many lesser sins that many LDS do not take seriously (gluttony? greed? pride?).

In truth I think most of the disgust and anger at homosexuality I find in the LDS Church is bad baggage picked up from other Christian faiths who have made it into a kind of monomania. I uncharitably ascribe that to it being a sin many of those condemning it have never been tempted with so it is comfortably far away from home. Condemnation of a sin you have never been tempted with is the cheapest of virtues.

[Sethbag]

So it is a term "mostly" used by conservative Christians. Just for arguements sake lets say I accept that its "mostly" used by conservative Christians, this implies that there are others who use the term who are not conservative Christians, out of curiosity can you name any?

No. You'll have to ask the site I was quoting, who used the term "mostly". In my brief searching, I have yet to run across anyone who isn't a conservative Christian of some sort using that word. Not sure how this helps whatever point you're trying to make, but there it is.

And as you discovered apprently with just a “little research” you were wrong. Word to the wise?

I did the research, found I was wrong, and immediately admitted it. Do you have a problem with that? And I will always accept words of wisdom, though I do not expect many from you. By the way, I am an apostate precisely because after discovering I was wrong about the LDS church, I accepted that, changed my mind, and redirected my life accordingly. I know you'd love to find some way to portray me negatively in all this, and knock yourself out trying. I'll never be ashamed to admit when I was wrong, correct myself, and drive on.

And it's not like I was completely off the reservation here. I thought the LDS came up with that word because I never hear anyone else using it, but it turns out that's because LDS are about the only conservative Christians I ever discuss homosexuality with, so it was an easy mistake to make. And an easy mistake to correct, which I have done.

Really? That is the reason why you brought it up earlier? Hang on a moment, this is what you said when you originally brought it up:

You have got to be kidding me. But no, this is you, and I've come to expect your attempts to find anything, any little shred, any little nitpick you can to try to portray me negatively. Read my original statement again. Read what that site said. Notice how they are compatible with each other? I didn't say the reason they detest that word was the exact same reason as why I detest it, I said they are "in accord with" one another. My intention was to show similarity. What exactly is your nitpick here?

.Hmmm, your most recent explanation on why you brought it up smells a bit fishy

No it doesn't. Grow up.

CFR that the Church uses the term for the reason of "gay-bashing".

I have mathematical proof to that effect, but I'm going to sit on it just to annoy you. Seriously, grow up.

According to your research the term is used mostly by conservative Christians but is also used by others. CFR that all others are hostile to homosexuality. CFR that all conservative Christians are hostile to homosexuality. CFR that you can read the minds of LDS who use the term SSA. Good luck with those.

1) I have never said that I know of anyone who is not a conservative Christian, who uses that term. I quoted a site that used the term "mostly". You may feel free to go CFR them.

2) n/a due to 1)

3) n/a because I never said that

4) n/a because I never said that

Btw, you haven't mentioned my crystal ball yet. If you must know, I consulted the crystal ball and it told me the LDS use the term SSA for the purposes of gay-bashing.

Yes you were wrong, completely and utterly. Word to the wise?

I was wrong, in that what I said was a subset of the true answer. I discovered this, and in my very next post corrected myself. Word to the wise for you: grow up.

[Sethbag]

Many former SSA would strongly disagree with you. Please explain what real phenomenon having sound epistemological value your belief is based on that is superior to that of former SSA persons.

If you must know, it's a combination of mind reading and consultations with my crystal ball.

[Sethbag]

Welcome to the LDS life. It is a crash course in humility isn't it? The scriptures do not offer any hope that in this life we can completely remove sinful desires. Everyone I know who sincerely lives the gospel struggles with something.

If you want to know what is really humbling, try being TBM for 36 years and then realizing that all along you were wrong about the church. That is truly humbling. I got through it, and so can you.

Btw, it's easy to tell someone just not to fixate on things. We all tend to fixate on the thing that's actually bothering us. Something sticks out like a sore thumb because, if all that's wrong with us is a sore thumb, you really, really notice it. I've never tried being a gay person trying to exercise utter sexual denial for the rest of my natural life. I can imagine that it would stick out like a sore thumb. I'm open to being wrong about this. I'm trying to empathize, and so far, this is what I'm coming up with.

[Sethbag]

Btw Kemara, CFR that crystal balls don't exist, or that they exist but don't work. Word to the wise: some call them "seer stones".

[Kemara]

Btw Kemara, CFR that crystal balls don't exist, or that they exist but don't work. Word to the wise: some call them "seer stones".

Some people can use seer stones, others only pretend they can, which one are you? As to the rest of your utterly ridiculous obfuscation LOLOLOLOL!!!

[Kemara]

If you want to know what is really humbling, try being TBM for 36 years and then realizing that all along you were wrong about the church. That is truly humbling. I got through it, and so can you.

Any LDS should be able to get through a crisis seeded by a juvenile and failed attempt to walk on water......well, almost any LDS.

[halconero]

Hey stop with the personal attacks. Both of you. This isn't a debate, it's stupidity.

I'm seeing both sarcasm and "any true Scotsman" attacks galore...

[The Nehor]

If you want to know what is really humbling, try being TBM for 36 years and then realizing that all along you were wrong about the church. That is truly humbling. I got through it, and so can you.

Btw, it's easy to tell someone just not to fixate on things. We all tend to fixate on the thing that's actually bothering us. Something sticks out like a sore thumb because, if all that's wrong with us is a sore thumb, you really, really notice it. I've never tried being a gay person trying to exercise utter sexual denial for the rest of my natural life. I can imagine that it would stick out like a sore thumb. I'm open to being wrong about this. I'm trying to empathize, and so far, this is what I'm coming up with.

Part of me would be thrilled if it was wrong but.....for good or ill God closed that door on me a long time ago.

I know it is easy to tell people not to fixate on things. It is also easy to tell people to be perfect or to consecrate yourself and everything you have and are to God. Saying things is almost always easier then doing them.

As to how hard it is......life sucks and then you die.....and then it gets better.

[Duncan]

This is pretty much why I think gay folks are a lot better off, or would be, if they just jettison the LDS church. Teaching a gay person that they have to hate their gayness is, IMHO, an exceedingly unhealthy thing to do. If their homosexuality is something they are born with, for whatever reason, then that really will lead to self-loathing and despair. I don't believe that homosexuality can be "cured", so if they loathe the homosexual part of themselves, it will be a lifelong loathing. That's just a crazy thing to advocate. To paraphrase Boyd K. Packer, "Why would a loving God do that to anyone?"

homosexuality is a tough row to hoe regardless of religious persuasions

[Sky]

I am curious why you find Smac's position that we all have temptations and trials and that while we should all have compassion and sympathy for those that experience difficult trials, that does not mean that we should ignore God's commandments or provide special dispensations for people extreme? Smac, and others, have repeatedly stated that we sympathize and acknowledge the difficulty of the trial. But,that does not change the fact that homosexual behavior is breaking the law of chastity and a sin, right? I appreciate you sharing your experience and position. Heavenly Father loves each of His children, and we are all called to love one another. We all make mistakes and fall short, but He provided a way, the Way, for us to overcome our trials and return home.

I don't think it's a good idea to ignore any commandments. Maybe it's more how Smac comes across, or the tone of his posts, that doesn't completely sit well with me. I know that he believes in what he's saying and he's trying to defend the faith, and I think that's great and I can relate with that. It's just that when I read the Church's new website, mormonsandgays.org, and then I read Smac's posts, I come away with a different overall impression or feeling. Smac's intentions are good, but I don't feel as though he completely understands or appreciates what gay members of the Church have to go through.

And then of course there is the opposite point of view, such as Sethbag's, which I can understand completely but is also not really helpful for a gay person trying to make it work in the LDS Church. I know he thinks that I should just rid myself of the Church and its unrealistic expectations, but I can't do that, for the reasons that I explained previously.

So here I am, and as I said before, there has got to be a more reasonable middle ground that we can all agree on, or come closer to agreeing on. I don't think this is an issue that any of us, myself included, have all the answers on. But I think we'd all be better off to try to be a little more nuanced and kinder to each other in our responses.

[The Nehor]

Hey stop with the personal attacks. Both of you. This isn't a debate, it's stupidity.

I'm seeing both sarcasm and "any true Scotsman" attacks galore...

Any true poster is a Scotsman,

[ControlFreak]

The thing is, I find myself sympathizing with many of Smac's and Sethbag's arguments, while also not completely agreeing with either of them. But how can this be, seeing as how they are on the opposite sides of the issue? I'm rather torn at the moment - help!!

And please spare me the argument that what is being asked of me is no different than if I were a single, hetero sister, and the opportunity to get married simply passed me by. They may have some parallels to each other, but they are not the same thing.

My life is a work in progress; I don't have all the answers to this, and I'm okay with that. That's all I have to say for now...

This is the main complaint I have with what comes across to me as an in-your-face style of defending the Church's stance on the morality of homosexual behavior used by smac et al. It is simply not the same thing to ask a heterosexual woman with no willing marriage partners to abstain from sex than it is to ask a gay man to avoid forming such a relationship to any degree (unless someone is willing to state the church would allow gay relationships that are abstinent?) And please no one say that the single woman could always pay for a whore (gigolo?) or that a married man may well have a willing adulterer. Don't insult anyone's intelligence in claiming that is the same in any way shape or form.

If a gay person is able to follow the church's requirements, which are undoubtedly beyond those asked of any heterosexual member, then they have my respect and sympathy for what must be a difficult burden bear. Not sympathy that they have chosen the church's path, because I hope they chose it becasue it brings them happiness, but sympathy that they have to deal with a very difficult challenge in order to attain that happiness.

Edited January 17, 2013 by ControlFreak

[Senator]

The thing is, I find myself sympathizing with many of Smac's and Sethbag's arguments, while also not completely agreeing with either of them. But how can this be, seeing as how they are on the opposite sides of the issue? I'm rather torn at the moment - help!!

The reason why I can sympathize with and understand both arguments is because I have experienced firsthand and continue to experience same-gender attraction in my own life. I'm also an active member of the Church. Yes, I'm gay, if that's the terminology you prefer to use (it makes no difference to me either way). Some of you are aware of this, others not. I'm not one to advertise it much. But my orientation is what it is, and has been what it is for almost my entire life. I didn't choose it anymore than any of you straight guys chose to wake up and like girls.

Unfortunately, I don't foresee my orientation changing anytime during my lifetime here. So, the approach that I try to take is "what can i learn from this?" "How can I best live my life so as to be in harmony with what my understanding is of God's expectations?" Some days I am better at it than other days. Sometimes I fail miserably at it. Sometimes I want to quit. I understand full well, firsthand what the Church expects of me, and it is not exactly equivalent of what they expect from a straight person. I am unable to have a completely fulfilling, satisfying sexual relationship in the same way that I would be able to have if I were a straight person. And please spare me the argument that what is being asked of me is no different than if I were a single, hetero sister, and the opportunity to get married simply passed me by. They may have some parallels to each other, but they are not the same thing.

And I can't just get up and leave the Church, either, as logical and sane of a decision as that may seem to some. The Church has been able to help fill a spiritual void in my life that I don't think I would be able to find elsewhere. Through my membership in the Church, I have learned that I am a son of my Heavenly Father and that I am a part of something much larger than just myself or my current situation. I'm no different than anybody else in the sense that we all have struggles and that I have to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling before the judgement bar of God. I just happen to struggle with something that is poorly understood. There has got to be a more reasonable middle ground than the extremes of either Smac's or Sethbag's positions...

My life is a work in progress; I don't have all the answers to this, and I'm okay with that. That's all I have to say for now...

Well said Sky, well said!

[Senator]

But,that does not change the fact that homosexual behavior is breaking the law of chastity and a sin, right?

I'm not sold on the idea that any expression of homosexual behavior is breaking the law of chastity and a sin.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Senator

[smac97]

The thing is, I find myself sympathizing with many of Smac's and Sethbag's arguments, while also not completely agreeing with either of them.

I would be interested in listening to what parts of my argument you find objectionable.

The reason why I can sympathize with and understand both arguments is because I have experienced firsthand and continue to experience same-gender attraction in my own life. I'm also an active member of the Church. Yes, I'm gay, if that's the terminology you prefer to use (it makes no difference to me either way). Some of you are aware of this, others not. I'm not one to advertise it much. But my orientation is what it is, and has been what it is for almost my entire life. I didn't choose it anymore than any of you straight guys chose to wake up and like girls.

Some of us choose our struggles, and some of us are given struggles. And sometimes we run into a bit of both.

Unfortunately, I don't foresee my orientation changing anytime during my lifetime here. So, the approach that I try to take is "what can i learn from this?" "How can I best live my life so as to be in harmony with what my understanding is of God's expectations?" Some days I am better at it than other days. Sometimes I fail miserably at it. Sometimes I want to quit. I understand full well, firsthand what the Church expects of me, and it is not exactly equivalent of what they expect from a straight person. I am unable to have a completely fulfilling, satisfying sexual relationship in the same way that I would be able to have if I were a straight person. And please spare me the argument that what is being asked of me is no different than if I were a single, hetero sister, and the opportunity to get married simply passed me by. They may have some parallels to each other, but they are not the same thing.

I do not think they are "the same thing," either. They are both challenging circumstances.

And I can't just get up and leave the Church, either, as logical and sane of a decision as that may seem to some. The Church has been able to help fill a spiritual void in my life that I don't think I would be able to find elsewhere. Through my membership in the Church, I have learned that I am a son of my Heavenly Father and that I am a part of something much larger than just myself or my current situation. I'm no different than anybody else in the sense that we all have struggles and that I have to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling before the judgement bar of God.

I support you in these efforts.

I just happen to struggle with something that is poorly understood. There has got to be a more reasonable middle ground than the extremes of either Smac's or Sethbag's positions...

What is it about my position that is "extreme?"

Thanks,

-Smac

[Sethbag]

Some people can use seer stones, others only pretend they can, which one are you? As to the rest of your utterly ridiculous obfuscation LOLOLOLOL!!!

Well of course I'm one of the ones who can actually use seerstones, duh. How many times have we had this discussion?

[Sethbag]

Any LDS should be able to get through a crisis seeded by a juvenile and failed attempt to walk on water......well, almost any LDS.

Actually the crisis was seeded by Joseph Smith pretending to be a prophet, inventing scriptures, producing revelations on demand to achieve his own personal ends, and so forth. The incident to which you refer is literally a drop in the bucket. But that won't stop you from inventing your own narrative of my apostasy, one that will achieve your ends of delegitimizing it.

[ControlFreak]

Sethbag, tried to PM you, but your box is full or something?

[Sethbag]

homosexuality is a tough row to hoe regardless of religious persuasions

Is it? I would always have thought so, but having been exposed to more gay people over time (not personally, but through message boards, tv personalities (which may well be fake, who knows?), etc.), I'm no longer convinced that the ration of crap that isn't imposed upon them by others, or in other words, the daily grind of life that they have to deal with as we all do, is really all that different for gay people as it is for hetero people.

[The Nehor]

But that won't stop you from inventing your own narrative of my apostasy, one that will achieve your ends of delegitimizing it.

Already done, I am convinced you left because you want to push old ladies down stairs. Close?