The Church Of The Devil, And Other Misrepresentations.

[DavidB]

To the individual v collective position. I would say 1Nephi 14:10 speaks of individuals within a collective. The individuals maintain the mindset of the respectice collective. And i would given that things are not grey with righteousness, it is about the individual.

[ERayR]

To the individual v collective position. I would say 1Nephi 14:10 speaks of individuals within a collective. The individuals maintain the mindset of the respectice collective. And i would given that things are not grey with righteousness, it is about the individual.

Huh.

[canard78]

canard's etymological connection does seem accurate. I placed in bold the relevant portion from the origin of the word "church":

http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

I very much like the application of "power" to the word "church" in Nephi's account of the church of the devil. I think I'll start sharing that insight with others.

I appreciate your endorsement

I'd imagine the scholars of Hebrew or Egyptian in our ranks might see the word application in a different way.

Given it makes sense for me in my understanding of the eternal nature of the struggle between the Lamb and the Devil, the English etymology works for me.

[Mudcat]

I would like to use this as a spin-off of Robs thread. Lets discuss who the church of the devil is in LDS theology, and any other subjects where LDS theology has been misrepresented or is in need of clarification.

I dunno if it's been said or not.. But from what I have read there seems a great deal of business about naming the harlot as a particular religion. I don't think that is right though.

The 17th chapter in Revelation plays out naming the harlot as a city that controls the world though in multiple interpretations.

http://bible.cc/revelation/17-18.htm

I don't know why people feel inclined to think that a fairly literal explanation in the text that the harlot is a city also seem to somehow get hung up on denominational sorts of things.

I do mean that in all seriousness.

Given that, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to establish which city is the harlot.

Obviously it's Casper, Wyoming.

edited for syntax and spelling... as usual

Edited January 3, 2013 by Mudcat

[canard78]

canard's etymological connection does seem accurate. I placed in bold the relevant portion from the origin of the word "church":

http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

I very much like the application of "power" to the word "church" in Nephi's account of the church of the devil. I think I'll start sharing that insight with others.

Even though the Book of Mormon was translated into English and therefore probably the most relevant to deconstruct... as a bit of fun I thought I'd see how the etymology works in other languages. I took the word used in the approved translation on lds.org (toggle language top right):

French: Église, runs through Latin into the Greek "to summon" or "to call"

Spanish: Iglesia, and Italian: Chiesa have same Latin/Greek root as French 'Église'

1 Nep 14:10 Behold there are save two (summons) only; the one is the (summons/call) of the Lamb of God, and the other is the (summons/call) of the devil

German: Kirche, earlier in the same root as the English Church

This root also applies to Dutch and Scandinavian languages where Kerk or Kyrka etc are used (in Scotland some still say Kirk for church).

1 Nep 14:10 Behold there are save two (powers) only; the one is the (power) of the Lamb of God, and the other is the (power) of the devil

Chinese: 教會 (Jiàohuì*), which comes from the characters for "teach" (or place of teaching/can teach)

1 Nep 14:10 Behold there are save two (teachings) only; the one is the (teaching) of the Lamb of God, and the other is the (teaching) of the devil

*Pronounced Jaow (to rhyme with 'Ow' like when you're hurt) and Hway (like 'way' but with a 'H' sound at the start). Both said with a downward inflexed tone like you're telling a dog to sit.

[mfbukowski]

Obviously it's Casper, Wyoming.

edited for syntax and spelling... as usual

No, I think Casper has dropped their sin tax and that is why indeed they are the harlot(s?) so you didn't have to edit that at all even if you did misspell sin tax.

Or something like that.

[Darren10]

Even though the Book of Mormon was translated into English and therefore probably the most relevant to deconstruct... as a bit of fun I thought I'd see how the etymology works in other languages. I took the word used in the approved translation on lds.org (toggle language top right):

French: Église, runs through Latin into the Greek "to summon" or "to call"

Spanish: Iglesia, and Italian: Chiesa have same Latin/Greek root as French 'Église'

1 Nep 14:10 Behold there are save two (summons) only; the one is the (summons/call) of the Lamb of God, and the other is the (summons/call) of the devil

German: Kirche, earlier in the same root as the English Church

This root also applies to Dutch and Scandinavian languages where Kerk or Kyrka etc are used (in Scotland some still say Kirk for church).

1 Nep 14:10 Behold there are save two (powers) only; the one is the (power) of the Lamb of God, and the other is the (power) of the devil

Chinese: 教會 (Jiàohuì*), which comes from the characters for "teach" (or place of teaching/can teach)

1 Nep 14:10 Behold there are save two (teachings) only; the one is the (teaching) of the Lamb of God, and the other is the (teaching) of the devil

*Pronounced Jaow (to rhyme with 'Ow' like when you're hurt) and Hway (like 'way' but with a 'H' sound at the start). Both said with a downward inflexed tone like you're telling a dog to sit.

Dude. I totally love it!!!

[Darren10]

Don't even get me started on the way walmart treats its employees. Blessings? My foot.

LoL. I've seen the video as well. What was it called? The High Price of Low Wages or something like that? While there's some merit to pay needing to be higher for people like those who work in the auto shop, the video's basically baseless and propaganda. Should Walmart unionize, pay their workers much higher? Would that help them expand or turn into General Motors?

Now, let's see. I went ot Walmart two days ago to get some milk. Besides SAM'S Club, they sell the the lowest priced mik around (3.49 / gal). I do my cereal shopping there. I get the generic stuff which they have in abundance. My in laws got the kids their Christmas presents there (and ours too) and Walmart was the big chain store who initiated medication for a dollar. Although I do our pharmecautical purchases at Target as they are better priced for us, it's kudos to Walmart for initiating the business model for cheap drugs.

You, sir, have a very blessed foot.

[3DOP]

3DOP #81;

On a similar note, via na email exchange, I was told that the administrators there needed to "protect" Catholics from LDS (or any other non-Catholic) prosyletizing. My "preaching", if we should call it that, were entirely responses to other remarks made previous to my entry into that forum. For example, I expressed my fiath in that the Book of Mormon was the true word of God and it brings souls to Christ. That was in direct reply to one poster who blanteantly said that science proved that the Book of Mormon is nothing but a fairy tail. I did not go there to preach, in fact, I really do not go anywhere to preach. I share my views and defend tham. One reason I like challenges is that it forces me to dig deeper than I normally would into my underastanding of LDS doctrines and in the end that helps me to gain a better understanding of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. I share my beliefs and allow others to decide how to best apply them.

From what I've seen you post here, I've no doubt you were quite civil in CAF. I know you don't attack people, nor, badger or lecture them. I like that in you. I also lioke the deep knowledge you bring into the discussion regarding Catholicism. I highly enjoy learning of other people's faiths and of other churches and religions. I have a strong desire to learn of these faiths accurately and so I find having you around is a blessing.

Thanks for sharing your insights and for your response. I hope and pray your arm continues to heal and to function well. Also, the highest of hopes for your son and his spiritual progress. May you and him and all yours be blessed by the Lord and may you all be intrumental in His hands to love and serve others.

Thanks Darren, I find it easy to believe the report you were given via e-mail about protecting the Catholics from the LDS. Of course they need protection. They don't know your faith and you do. Big disadvantage. I guess they don't have enough faith that they will stay Catholic without allowing misrepresentations of your faith.

I think the same "protection" is being applied to voices from their own ranks like me. On a lark, I went over there this afternoon and immediately found a post from recent days with which I agreed almost completely. It pointed our some reasons why, even though one believes the New Mass is licit and valid as I do, that the New Mass still has serious defects and obscures Catholic distinctives. That is where part of the blame has to lie for the shameful diminution of faith in these suppressed distinctives. Most of our catechesis always comes from the liturgy. Books and classes are only supplements to that supreme teacher of Catholic doctrine. Not surprisingly, banned, was next to the name of the person who spoke out. It is a pattern that plays out over and over again. When they don't have answers to objections, they tell the many people like me who try to communicate our misgivings that we are disobedient or schismatic, that we hate the Catholic Church. Usually, they not only ban, but they take away the post. It seemed to me like my most substantive posts, the ones that enthused me the most over there as I was writing them, were always being deleted.

Anyway, I think it would be a stretch to say I have gotten over it given how ready I am to commiserate with someone else when the occasion presents itself. Today is the Octave of the Feast of Stephen, the first martyr for Christ. Like Jesus, we remember from the Book of Acts how he prayed for those who persecuted him while reminding God and himself of their ignorance. I do not pretend to be an imitation of St. Stephen while he was being stoned. I cite him not to compare my own "travail", but to remind myself that if he could forgive those and commend them to God who stoned him, it would be a serious defect to my own character if I could not forgive those who silenced me in a much less vicious way.

Thanks for remembering my health issues and for your prayers. Things are coming along in the arm department. But that is why I have been so active lately. I have been off work for a month and now it is much easier to type.

Many blessings to you and yours Darren,

3DOP

Edited January 3, 2013 by 3DOP

[volgadon]

LoL. I've seen the video as well. What was it called? The High Price of Low Wages or something like that? While there's some merit to pay needing to be higher for people like those who work in the auto shop, the video's basically baseless and propaganda. Should Walmart unionize, pay their workers much higher? Would that help them expand or turn into General Motors?

Now, let's see. I went ot Walmart two days ago to get some milk. Besides SAM'S Club, they sell the the lowest priced mik around (3.49 / gal). I do my cereal shopping there. I get the generic stuff which they have in abundance. My in laws got the kids their Christmas presents there (and ours too) and Walmart was the big chain store who initiated medication for a dollar. Although I do our pharmecautical purchases at Target as they are better priced for us, it's kudos to Walmart for initiating the business model for cheap drugs.

You, sir, have a very blessed foot.

So, you've seen the video. I've worked there. Lovely introduction to life in the USA.

[Saints Alive]

So, you've seen the video. I've worked there. Lovely introduction to life in the USA.

back on topic please... Unless you are suggesting that wal-mart is the church of the devil? Edited January 3, 2013 by Saints Alive

[Calm]

It certainly promotes materialism....

[Saints Alive]

The philosophies of men... Mingled with everyday low prices!

[Darren10]

So, you've seen the video. I've worked there. Lovely introduction to life in the USA.

And you left to do better for yourself, correct? Were the working conditions worse there than from where you came from? I highly doubt it unless you're comparing a completely different type of jobs: Walmart stocking / register work, etc. vs. a corporate or industrial job you had before coming to the US.

I worked at Wendy's for three years during high school about a year after college until I got a full time job elsewhere with my degree. As a non-betting man, I betchya the working conditions there were not any better than at Walmart. I also worked one year at Target just before college. Ditto to those working conditions. They are great starting points to go on to what you desire to do. I do not belittle these jobs at all. They are blessings.

You could also get a job at General Motors where now your job is pretty much guaranteed by the US government. Heck, you can get paid for hours upon hours for doing absolutely nothing. In part from my pocket.

OK, back to topic.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Darren10

[Darren10]

The philosophies of men... Mingled with everyday low prices!

OK, that was funny!!! But, you're correct, we need to get back to topic.

[Darren10]

It certainly promotes materialism....

Ooooooooo, trinkets and adornments! ; > )

OK, back to topic...for reals.

[Darren10]

3DOP #109;

That's good of you to apply Stephen to your own personal life. No doubt one of the reasons God inspired men of old to keep records is for us to apply the same priciples men of God followed anciently to our situations today. Situations may vary but moral priciples do not.

While I've no desire to go around and talk ciricism of Catholic Answers Forum, I will do so now based on your comments and then I think I'll let it go and keep to the main topic on hand.

I agree that CAF is set up as a sort of a bubble of existence. This is the term I use (and coined, thank you very much ) for forums and blogs which allow posts and discussions but the arguments you find there can only exist there. In other words, take the arguments you find at CAF outside of that website and they will not stand scrutiny for very long. Posts at CAF will make an argumentive case and then control the responses towards that case. During my short time there I quickly noticed posters talking down to Mormon posters as if the LDS posters were ignorant children. "If you want to respond to my inquiry", as I and another LDS poster were told, "I suggest you do so following [insert pattern here]". Also, judgements were made very swiftly upon me and the LDS in general. After merely suggesting that "sacrifice" means "to make holy" I was told that I must have gotten that from the Mormon dictironary which changes the definitions of words to suite LDS theology. I simply pointed out the etymological rootes of "sacrifice" which is "sacro" = "holy; and "facere" = "to do" or "to make". While I was there, and this is on only one thread and a few posts I made there, probably about 15 all together, it was siggested that I was not informed or a liar. I was challeneged explicitly why I followed LDS leaders and i gave a response along the lines that when I hear them speak than that opens up the doors of heaven to me and I can follow the Holy Spirit and His confirmations that what the LDS leaders say is true. But it was soon dictated to me that I only followthe LDS Church because it provides a safe community for me. As if they'd know why i follow my faith. It was very clear that members there controled the substance of the dialogue. Outsdie their vitrual world, when people may freely share their thoughts and ideas, their structure will fall apart rapidly. It can only exist under their control.

But, as I stated earlier, I'm fine with being banned from over there. It's their website, it's their call. It was unfortunate in the sense that I went there initially to leanr of the Catholic faith. I make efforts to avoid "ex-Catholics" and especially "anti-Catholics" but their ban resulted in my not being to view anything as far as the forum and thus the ones which catholics express their Catholic beliefs and their general web pages to "explain" Mormonism is pretty much the same stuff I find anywhere whose goal is to show how false Mormonism is.

Anyhow, I think you did a great service to folks there by recalling their own history to them. The LDS place great emphasis in knowing history and the historical context of its own past. It has strong theological ground as well. Perhaps you touched at least someone there before you were banned. Who knows.

Anyhow, I want to restate how I really like being able to dialogue with you. you and a few others here will be my go to persons regarding Catholic theology, practices, and history. I think you're a very fine person and wish you and yours God speed in all you endeavores.

[canard78]

Over the years of its evolution, this board and its immediate predecessor have swung from one edge to the other. Some high-profile Mormons and ex-Mormons used to be regular

posters as well as some Evangelical folks who were far more aggressive than Rob. The tone of the board has changed noticeably. It is far less charged than

it has been in the past. And....I agree that it is nice to have a place to discuss the gospel without a lot of rancor.

Bernard

While I agree that it is good to have an environment to discuss doctrine in peace, it would be a shame if MDDB lost its apologetic origins.

I think we need people like Rob to keep us straight and ensure we don't slip into self-congratulatory certainty that the questions are adequately answered.

We've places like LDS.net for the inward facing back-slapping.

[Vance]

Don't even get me started on the way walmart treats its employees. Blessings? My foot.

Yeah, Walmart keeps its employees by treating them badly. They are even forced to work there. They can't leave, Walmart won't let them. I call that slavery. Slaves can't quit, they have to be sold.

[Vance]

So, you've seen the video. I've worked there. Lovely introduction to life in the USA.

So, when did Walmart sell you, and to whom? Surely you didn't leave of your own accord. That would be so . . . free enterpriseish. And THAT is BAD, right?

[ERayR]

Yeah, Walmart keeps its employees by treating them badly. They are even forced to work there. They can't leave, Walmart won't let them. I call that slavery. Slaves can't quit, they have to be sold.

AS one who has worked for Wal-Mart I can attest to Volgadon's assessment.

[Saints Alive]

Seriously, does anyone else find it incredibly ironic that a thread about misconception of the church of the devil has changed to talking about the (supposed) evils of wal-mart?

[canard78]

Seriously, does anyone else find it incredibly ironic that a thread about misconception of the church of the devil has changed to talking about the (supposed) evils of wal-mart?

The delights of message board entropy.

[Freedom]

Many years ago Howard W Hunter and David B Haight came to visit our area. I was up on the stand for the Saturday sessions so I had the opportunity to talk with them during breaks. I asked Pres hunter, then president of the quorum of the 12, this very question and proposed the idea that the church of the lamb of God is not the same as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Someone could be a mormon but be a member of the church of the devil, and the church of the lamb of God is perhaps the church of the eternities, composed of those who adhere to the celestial laws. He said that I was probably right but he advised that if I asked each member of the 12 apostles I would get 12 different opinions.

If I had the opportunity to ask these men a question today, doctrines would be the last thing on my mind. I would more likely ask them about the role of women or some other policy matter.

[bluebell]

Many years ago Howard W Hunter and David B Haight came to visit our area. I was up on the stand for the Saturday sessions so I had the opportunity to talk with them during breaks. I asked Pres hunter, then president of the quorum of the 12, this very question and proposed the idea that the church of the lamb of God is not the same as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Someone could be a mormon but be a member of the church of the devil, and the church of the lamb of God is perhaps the church of the eternities, composed of those who adhere to the celestial laws. He said that I was probably right but he advised that if I asked each member of the 12 apostles I would get 12 different opinions.

If I had the opportunity to ask these men a question today, doctrines would be the last thing on my mind. I would more likely ask them about the role of women or some other policy matter.

They just need to ask Bowman and he could make sure that each of the 12 knew exactly what it was.