Heavenly Mother

[Nathair/|\]

I have to reject the idea that Heavenly Mother is either Mary or the Holy Ghost, because she must be a resurrected being if the Father is one. Neither Mary nor the HG held that status early enough.

[Damien the Leper]

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

"O Lord God almighty... I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG

5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing withwater" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988). "We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts."

(Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation... [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority... There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification..." (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

Edited January 5, 2013 by Valentinus

[Nathair/|\]

Nevermind

Are you old enough to be a Nirvana fan?

[Damien the Leper]

Are you old enough to be a Nirvana fan?

Yeah. My sister introduced me to their first album, Bleach.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

"O Lord God almighty... I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG

5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing withwater" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988). "We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts."

(Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation... [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority... There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification..." (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

Odd that you would quote all these men who were killing on another for the things they also taught about "us" being gods.

[Sky]

Incomprehensible is a precise word. It implies neither distance nor abstraction.

The definition of incomprehensible is:

Difficult or impossible to understand or comprehend; unintelligible.

That is how I feel about the post-Biblical creeds definition of the Trinity.

If God is incomprehensible, then that causes me to feel distant from Him, or as though I don't know Him. If the Trinity is some abstract concept (three in one and one in three), then it's almost impossible for me to arrive to a correct understanding of who God is and what His relationship is to me.

We are said to have comprehensive knowledge of a subject when we have all of the data.

Agreed

We would in fact argue that God is immanent even before the Incarnation. "...inasmuch it is in Him that we all live and move and have our being." (Ac. 17:28)

Sometimes it seems as though Mormons and Catholics speak a different language, but if you're saying what I think you're saying, I don't think any Mormon would take issue with it.

The only thing about the following scriptures is that they seem to imply a pre-existence, which Catholicism doesn't accept.

1st Peter 1: 19-20: But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

And, Moses 4:2 (from the Pearl of Great Price): But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me-Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

[Sky]

I've always said that. What we don't believe is that God's Father had a Father. That's an LDS teaching we can't accept. We also don't believe that humans are ontologically the same as God. Humans are not of the same Being as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The LDS would say we share the same Being as Father, Son and Holy Ghost, but we just haven't progressed as far as they have.

It's not official LDS doctrine that God the Father had a Father. But there has certainly been plenty of speculation to that effect. But as far as I know, it has never been taught as official doctrine. Some things we know, and some things we don't. And that is one of those things that I think we will have to wait until after this life is over in order to get the answer.

And Mormons don't exactly believe that humans are the same being as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, either. More accurately, we believe that humans are sons and daughters of our Heavenly Father. We also believe what the Bible says in Genesis 1:27:

God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

[Damien the Leper]

Odd that you would quote all these men who were killing on another for the things they also taught about "us" being gods.

I'm not sure their ideas of theosis is the same as LDS.

[volgadon]

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

"O Lord God almighty... I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG

5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing withwater" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988). "We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts."

(Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation... [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority... There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification..." (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

Most of those seem to be talking more of a social trinity than anything.

[Darren10]

I think it would be more correct to say that Jesus is the incarnation of God, not the Father.

From my understanding of the trinitarian belief, this is correct and I find this an area which gets somewhat tricky for trinitarian thinking. The LDS are constantly criticized for believing that God the Father has a body of flesh and bone. The critics regularly point to scripture which clearly states "God is spirit". Well, if Jesus Christ is God incarnate, rose from the dead, testified that a spirit has not flesh and bone as He had, ascended to heaven and nodoby thinks He discarded His corporeal body of flesh and bone than how is God *only* spirit? How is only one person who is God incarnate with flesh and bone but God who the person is of not flesh and bone?

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate distinct persons who have the same Being. Person and Being are completely different concepts in Trinitarian understanding. Person is who each individual member of the Godhead is. Being is the quality of their Person which is equal for all three members of the Godhead. Jesus and the Holy Spirit subordinate their Persons to the Father within the Godhead, but they share exactly the same quality of Being as the Father. In the LDS vocabulary Person and Being seem to mean the same thing.

That does seem to accurately describe trinitarian and LDS beliefs.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Darren10

[Damien the Leper]

Most of those seem to be talking more of a social trinity than anything.

It's possible, Volg. It's the best I could find on short notice.

[Darren10]

Valentinus #302;

According to what these early Christian founders declared as per your citations, there's nothing the LDS disagrees with. There is nothing inhenretly wrong with believing in a "trinity". The word itself more or less means one unit of three. That's exactly what the LDS believe regarding the Godhead.

As for Tertullian, I think his concept of "substance" differs from other, particularly Origens'.

Tertullian, borrowing from Stoicism, believed that God was material (though only of a very refined material, a kind of thinking gas), so that his statement that Father, Son and Spirit were 'of one substance', beautifully orthodox though it sounds, was of a corporeality which would have profoundly shocked Origen, Athanasius and the Cappadocian theologians, had they known of it.^[

That's found under the subheading: What were early Christian beliefs on the nature of God?

Also, if I'm not mistaken, I do believe Tertullian eventually left Christianity, or, at least, the Christian church. I do not think anyone knows why.

[volgadon]

Also, if I'm not mistaken, I do believe Tertullian eventually left Christianity, or, at least, the Christian church. I do not think anyone knows why.

You mean, became a Montanist, IE, believed in the New Prophecy, which isn't even close to leaving Christianity.

[Darren10]

You mean, became a Montanist, IE, believed in the New Prophecy, which isn't even close to leaving Christianity.

About a year or so ago I read about 6 different articles on Tertullian. I could have sworn at least two of them said he left either Christianity or the Cristian church.

But, nevertheless, thanks for the heads up. I do appreciate it.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I'm not sure their ideas of theosis is the same as LDS.

Widely used around te net as a "why" and a pre-disposition to the idea prior to JS.

[Bart Burk]

About a year or so ago I read about 6 different articles on Tertullian. I could have sworn at least two of them said he left either Christianity or the Cristian church.

But, nevertheless, thanks for the heads up. I do appreciate it.

Tertullian became a Montanist, but it wasn't a result of giving up his belief in the Trinity. The Montanists seemed to be the Pentecostals of their day and even had female bishops and priests.

[Bart Burk]

From my understanding of the trinitarian belief, this is correct and I find this an area which gets somewhat tricky for trinitarian thinking. The LDS are constantly criticized for believing that God the Father has a body of flesh and bone. The critics regularly point to scripture which clearly states "God is spirit". Well, if Jesus Christ is God incarnate, rose from the dead, testified that a spirit has not flesh and bone as He had, ascended to heaven and nodoby thinks He discarded His corporeal body of flesh and bone than how is God *only* spirit? How is only one person who is God incarnate with flesh and bone but God who the person is of not flesh and bone?

That does seem to accurately describe trinitarian and LDS beliefs.

Seriously, I believe the differences are mostly semantic. I've never believed the LDS belief that the Father has a body of flesh and bones is problematic for a Trinitarian. His materiality would not change His Being as God in any way.

[Damien the Leper]

Seriously, I believe the differences are mostly semantic. I've never believed the LDS belief that the Father has a body of flesh and bones is problematic for a Trinitarian. His materiality would not change His Being as God in any way.

This is true. I suppose that I don't really have an issue with it so long as God isn't limited by human characteristics and laws.

[Damien the Leper]

Widely used around te net as a "why" and a pre-disposition to the idea prior to JS.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Could you clarify?

[pogi]

Seriously, I believe the differences are mostly semantic. I've never believed the LDS belief that the Father has a body of flesh and bones is problematic for a Trinitarian. His materiality would not change His Being as God in any way.

I agree. Here are some semantics that we can all agree on. D&C 20:28 - "Which, Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal , without end. Amen."

Perhaps we do not understand the meaning of the word God and all of it's usages.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I don't understand what you're saying here. Could you clarify?

If I hade a day to type...I have all the info in print, but I am sure that someone here could find a quick link for all aboved apologists, might even be in the advanced searched fuction.

[Damien the Leper]

I'm familiar with the citations given on theosis by the ECFs. Like I said, I'm not sure that how they perceived it is the same as LDS.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I'm familiar with the citations given on theosis by the ECFs. Like I said, I'm not sure that how they perceived it is the same as LDS.

It is unlike any others in it's context.

[Calm]

This is true. I suppose that I don't really have an issue with it so long as God isn't limited by human characteristics and laws.

Human characteristics like love? Human laws like justice?

[Calm]

I'm familiar with the citations given on theosis by the ECFs. Like I said, I'm not sure that how they perceived it is the same as LDS.

Not the same, but suggesting that the idea itself was in the primitive church---the debate being whether or not the LDS or the ECFs' interpretation of the idea was a closer form to the original.