Anti-Mormonism In Russia

[The Nehor]

That is where we certainly part ways. As much as I love the physical land of my birth, I love my nation more.

I am still bitter about Solomon taxing my people into rebellion and Rehoboam splitting the nation so my people were cut off from the temple.

I love the nation still but the political state of Israel is not them.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

If you or family ever have the chance to visit, I'll make sure you have somewhere to stay for free.

That would be great, I have seen much of the U.S. and Europe, but Israel has always been on my bucket list. I remember being on alert when Iran took hostages...came close to seeing the Middle East, but not as a tourist. When 911 took place some in my department called to see if we could re-enlist, but I was 44 and they would not take me. But like you, I too value my country and it's safety above my own. No one wants to die for any cause, but if called upon, so be it.

[thesometimesaint]

Dying for a cause is easy. It is the living the cause that is hard work.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Dying for a cause is easy. It is the living the cause that is hard work.

Yes it is...hard oncept for those who never served to understand. We require too little of our young people, this is why America is in trouble. I sometimes wonder if the draft was ever a bad thing.

[Calm]

I think it would not be a bad idea to require all citizens to participate in either military training/service or some sort of community service for what amounts to two years....with the option to do it part time after school or work during high school and college years.

[Nathair/|\]

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day...I'll take it. I would give my life defending four things, my Family, My Faith, my Country and Israel.

In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children

Given the opportunity and the ability, I will happily fight anywhere liberty is threatened,

[Stargazer]

My stance towards Israel is pretty negative so failing to see problem.

Hoping that this doesn't make it too political to keep the thread open, but why, dare I ask, is your stance towards Israel pretty negative?

[Stargazer]

I am still bitter about Solomon taxing my people into rebellion and Rehoboam splitting the nation so my people were cut off from the temple.

I love the nation still but the political state of Israel is not them.

While Solomon taxed the people heavily it wasn't to the point of rebellion. After Solomon died, his successor was asked by Rehoboam if he was going to reduce taxes. The response, that they were going to be doubled, certainly seemed to justify the split.

Or don't you think that taxation without representation is a bad thing that justifies rebellion?

[The Nehor]

Hoping that this doesn't make it too political to keep the thread open, but why, dare I ask, is your stance towards Israel pretty negative?

Their treat,ent of Palestinians. Admittedly the Palestinians are equally bad back. They deserve each other.

[The Nehor]

While Solomon taxed the people heavily it wasn't to the point of rebellion. After Solomon died, his successor was asked by Rehoboam if he was going to reduce taxes. The response, that they were going to be doubled, certainly seemed to justify the split.

Or don't you think that taxation without representation is a bad thing that justifies rebellion?

Jeroboam rebelled against Solomon first. It did not work until Solomon was dead. Solomon instituted a forced labor program to get the Temple built. The people seemed okay with this. Then when it was finished he kept the program going to build himself a palace almost as nice as the temple. It is an irony that this was probably the same kind of bondage Israel was in when they were in Egypt.

[volgadon]

Their treat,ent of Palestinians. Admittedly the Palestinians are equally bad back. They deserve each other.

This is why I absolutely love foreigners who make lofty, smug, and morally superior comments.

[The Nehor]

This is why I absolutely love foreigners who make lofty, smug, and morally superior comments.

Like this one?

[Stargazer]

Their treat,ent of Palestinians. Admittedly the Palestinians are equally bad back. They deserve each other.

There's a lot of that "Palestinian" thing going around, you know. Problem is, there are no Palestinians. They are all Arabs, just as the people of Jordan, Syria, and Egypt are all Arabs. Now, there may be some people who do not live within the borders of the state of Israel, whose ancestors once lived there, but they are indistinguishable from most of the Jordanians, Syrians and Egyptians. Palestine is a geographic name which derives from the ancient kingdom of the Philistines -- it is a toponym, not a demonym. This means that it is not the name of a distinguishable people, it is the name of a geographic region. Technically, anyone born or living in Palestine are Palestinians, and that includes the Israelis, whether Arab Israelis or Jewish Israelis. I only say this in order to clear up the confusion, that there is a racial component at work here, which there is not.

You have to go back into history to find out why there are so many people whose ancestors used to live within the borders of today's Israel, but their descendants do not. Back in the day, when the country of Israel came into existence, there were a lot of Arabs living there. The Arab countries outside of Israel did not take very kindly to a bunch of Jews suddenly being given rulership over land that had formerly been ruled by Muslims (there is apparently some kind of principle of "once-Muslim, always-Muslim" at work here). They decided to "right" this "wrong" by force, and invaded.

Now, many of the Arabs living within Israel's borders fled outside them, probably for many reasons. Possibly they expected that the invading Arab forces were going to drive the Jews into the sea (and perhaps anyone else who were nearby as well), but unexpectedly, the badly-armed Israelis managed to stop the invasion and defeat their foes. There was now quite a quandary: the Arabs who had fled were now outside the borders of the new country with two sets of armies facing each other at gunpoint between them and their former homes. Understandably, they wanted to come back. But they weren't permitted to do so. When Israel offered to let about 100,000 of them who had families still within Israel to be repatriated, the Arab belligerants refused to allow it, because they were afraid that this would be seen as a kind of recognition of the state of Israel. And incredibly, except for Jordan, the Arab countries also refused to let these refugees become citizens of their countries! This pretty much required that these refugees would become permanent residents of refugee camps.

So shall we talk about how the Israelis have mistreated the "Palestinians"? The Arab states required that these refugees live in squalid camps and refused them citizenship. The Arab states have used these refugees as cannon fodder in their ongoing war against Israel, and as propaganda cows in their ongoing attempts to smear Israel. Israel of course is full of human beings and so lots of bad things have been done in their turn as well. But the root of the conflict is primarily a refusal of the Arab states surrounding Israel to let Israel live in peace.

I understand that the descendants of the Arabs who fled or were expelled from within the borders of Israel might feel they have a right to go back. It's perfectly understandable. I also understand that Israel considers that letting them come back is tantamount to letting terrorists have free rein in their country. As witness to this consider what Hamas has been doing in Gaza -- thousands of rockets launched into Israel.

It's not Israel's fault that things are as bad as they are. The only solution (from Hamas' perspective, anyway) is that Israel be destroyed.

So where's that going to go, do you think?

[The Nehor]

I am not arguing that the surrounding nations are in any way morally superior. The surrounding natiions use the refugees as political capital. Factions in the Israeli Knesset use the terroriests the same way. As for those rocket attacks they are using cheap inaccurate weapons and the attacks are mostly futile. The Israeli response usually kills at least ten times as many people at least, israel holds all the cards in terms of force. Both hate each other. Both sides have people that use the hate for their own ends. If there is a more wronged side the difference is minute and not worth considering.

My main worry is that the U.S. is using the same asymmetrical retaliation in response to terror attacks on us. May God forgive us.

[volgadon]

Like this one?

Like yours? Yes.

[volgadon]

There's a lot of that "Palestinian" thing going around, you know. Problem is, there are no Palestinians. They are all Arabs, just as the people of Jordan, Syria, and Egypt are all Arabs. Now, there may be some people who do not live within the borders of the state of Israel, whose ancestors once lived there, but they are indistinguishable from most of the Jordanians, Syrians and Egyptians.

I actually don't agree with this. They may be a recent people, but they do have their own dialect, their own customs, and their own histoy.

[Stargazer]

I actually don't agree with this. They may be a recent people, but they do have their own dialect, their own customs, and their own histoy.

So what? The fact remains that "Palestinian" is a toponym, or in other words, a name based on geography, not the name of a distinct people. I have distant relatives who live in New York City, and by golly they also have their own dialect, their own customs and a different history from mine, but the toponym "New Yorker" does not constitute evidence that they are not Americans. The Jews who live in Palestine are Palestinians, too. The folks everyone insists upon calling "Palestinians" are Arabs. At most, they are Palestinian Arabs, just as the Jewish residents of Tel-Aviv are Palestinian Jews. And every citizen of Israel, whether Jew or Arab, is an Israeli.

And word to The Nehor: 20% of Israelis are Arabs and citizens of Israel, living in Israel, and the Israelis treat them just fine. You'll find them in the Knesset, in the IDF, and everywhere treated pretty much the same as everyone else. If Hamas would stop shooting thousands of rockets from Gaza into Israel and stop blowing up buses in Israel, do you think Israel would be retaliating against them? Hint: the answer is NO. So, who's the aggressor here?

[Stargazer]

I am not arguing that the surrounding nations are in any way morally superior. The surrounding natiions use the refugees as political capital. Factions in the Israeli Knesset use the terroriests the same way. As for those rocket attacks they are using cheap inaccurate weapons and the attacks are mostly futile. The Israeli response usually kills at least ten times as many people at least, israel holds all the cards in terms of force. Both hate each other. Both sides have people that use the hate for their own ends.

I'd be interested to hear which factions in the Knesset use the terrorists as "political capital". Do you have enough understanding of Israeli poltics to even be able to answer this question? And what do you mean by "political capital", anyway? Do you mean that some of the politicians in the Knesset use the fact that the terrorists are killing Israelis to push through some kind of agenda? Like defending their country?

As to those cheap inaccurate rockets, are you really listening to what you are saying? From 2000 to 2008 Hamas fired about 4,000 missiles and 4,000 mortar shells into Israel from Gaza. Oh, no big deal, right?

Let's say that those pesky Canadians in Toronto got annoyed that the Buffalo Sabres won the Stanley Cup against the Toronto Maple Leafs, and they started lobbing missiles across Lake Ontario towards Buffalo. And let's say further that the rockets they were using were not very accurate, nor very well made, and one-third of them landed in the lake, a further third landed south of Buffalo, and only a third landed in Buffalo itself. And the air-raid warning system in Buffalo was good enough that 9 times out of ten they were able to warn the people of Buffalo in time to get to shelter, and only ten to twenty people a month were being killed or injured from these rockets. Would you try to minimize this naked aggression the way you have just tried to minimize Hamas's actions against Israel?

Just how bloody long do you think it would take before the US dropped the 82nd Airborne Division into Toronto, along with a tactical air wing or two to knock out every missile launching site in and around Toronto? Would they put up with it for a month? A year? Eight years? Are you kidding me? Israel has been incredibly forebearing, and again I say, if Hamas and Hezbollah were to stop terrorizing the Israelis (and their own people, for that matter), Israel would stop trying to STOP THEM FROM SHOOTING MISSILES AT THEM!!! Hello? Earth to The Nehor! Get a grip, dude. Hamas isn't shooting missiles at Israel to stop Israel from attacking them, it's the other bloody way around. Hamas is shooting missiles at Israel because they want to kill Israelis and if possible destroy the state of Israel. It's war for crying out loud, not a football riot.

As to the old news of the former Arab residents of the territory now administered by Israel, you know what this reminds me of? It reminds me of how the Soviets murdered, kidnapped, and drove out the German residents of East Prussia at the end of World War 2. There were 2.2 million Germans in East Prussia in 1939, and in May 1945 there were only 193,000 left. And in the following nine months the rest of them were put on trains and dumped into what became the German Democratic Republic. East Prussia got divided between Soviet Russia and Poland and that was the way of it. It's a little close to home for me, because my wife was one of those 193,000 left in May1945 who was entrained to East Berlin by the end of 1945. Her sister wishes to this day that she could go back to her home, but her home is not her home any longer and it's in Poland, not Germany. My mother-in-law complained about the loss of her homeland, Memel, to the Lithuanians to the end of her life. But they had to get over it -- it might not have been their fault that Hitler started World War 2, but they had to pay for it. And the "Palestinians" need to get over having lost the home of their ancestors for the same reason. It might not have been their fault that the Arab nations decided to destroy Israel and LOST, but that was the way of it. Now if they stop shooting rockets and blowing up buses and schools, maybe there can be peace in the Middle East, because Israel is only shooting BACK, not shooting FIRST. And not shooting back does not stop the shooting first, at least not so far.

And of course all the apologists are out there trying to tell the Israelis that they need to just duck their heads and after all they are cheap and inaccurate rockets.

And what the heck do you mean by

"The Israeli response usually kills at least ten times as many people at least, israel holds all the cards in terms of force."

Are you, first of all, prepared to defend those numbers or are you just throwing out numbers because they sound impressive?

My main worry is that the U.S. is using the same asymmetrical retaliation in response to terror attacks on us. May God forgive us.

Let's say that your numbers are accurate (fat chance) and not pulled from where the sun doesn't shine. Just for the sake of argument. Do you think that the Israelis should count how many of their people get killed in a given attack, and then cross the border and kill "Palestinians" one by one until they just match the number of Israelis killed? Are you kidding me? Or how about this? Do you seriously expect that if Israel decided that they should just humbly let Hamas shoot as many missiles as they want and kill as many Israelis as they can, and just do nothing about it, that Hamas would eventually get all ashamed of themselves and finally stop shooting missiles and blowing up buses?

I think the Israelis already did the Auschwitz and the Warsaw Ghetto thing, and I don't think they are much interested in a repeat.

AGAIN, if Hamas and Hezbollah stopped killing Israelis, the Israelis would be perfectly happy to live in peace with them. Israel is NOT the problem.

If there is a more wronged side the difference is minute and not worth considering.

I would like to call this little statement out as complete and utter BS. You act as if things between Israel and Hamas/Hezbollah amounts to the same thing as between two convicted murderers in the prison exercise yard or something.

Oh, another thing about this little misstatement. It sounds like the kind of thing a battered wife might say to herself about her situation: maybe if I behaved myself better, my husband might not beat me up so much. I know you're trying to be even-handed or something, but the two sides are not operating from the same motives, like you seem to think.

[Ares]

The thread has veered into Israeli politics... Get back on track or find a new topic.

[volgadon]

When we were there in 95 it wasn't all that pretty. Poor missionaries getting spat on by little old ladies.

That still happens. Some of those little old ladies can be so mean.

[The Nehor]

The thread has veered into Israeli politics... Get back on track or find a new topic.

My fault. Though I would love to tear a few posts apart I will forbear so we can talk more about Russian Nazis.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Yes it is...hard oncept for those who never served to understand. We require too little of our young people, this is why America is in trouble. I sometimes wonder if the draft was ever a bad thing.

Many Nation's do already, including Israel. You know you are lonely when you answer your own post.

[thesometimesaint]

I am proud of my service to my country. However I'd rather have volunteers that want to be in the military than force anyone too join. The last thing I'd want to do is to give a really pissed off recruit a weapon.

[Calm]

I am proud of my service to my country. However I'd rather have volunteers that want to be in the military than force anyone too join. The last thing I'd want to do is to give a really pissed off recruit a weapon.

However, having a separate division for draftees and volunteers could solve that problem. Volunteers would be the only ones allowed in combat, draftees could be limited to noncombat zones and placed in less critical positions, at least until they prove their commitment.

[The Nehor]

A mandatory military service period would be financial suicide for the United States at this time. It is customary to pay them after all.