Terryl Givens Letter To A Doubter

[MormonMason]

Seriously though, you realize that that view implies that all science studies is illusions, right?

They only are illusions when the observation of the experiment affects the outcome of the experiment. (Quantum Physics inside joke).

[TAO]

They only are illusions when the observation of the experiment affects the outcome of the experiment. (Quantum Physics inside joke).

Woot!

... yeah... someone posted this video on the forum a while ago.

[blackstrap]

You all should be aware that as one gets older,there comes a point at which one can no longer REMEMBER what one thought one knew.

Good times,man, good times !

[mfbukowski]

DB and Duncan, with all of the issues on the table that do not look good about the church there are those that can't deny the spirit they feel in our church and that keeps them firmly grounded. As well that might be the same for others in other faiths and their leaders getting guidance also. Could it be possible for there to be one belief in God and many institutions that God and his angels speak to?

The only problem is that we are about the only one which really doctrinally believes in continuing revelation and an open canon.

Thank about it. To even seek continuing revelation, one would have to be looking for it and believe it is possible. If you think the Bible is it and there are no more prophets, then you are automatically right- for you.

If you don't believe in prophets, you will never have one.

[mfbukowski]

IMHO: He’s God, Father of all humanity. He leads all, as much as they’re willing to have him. I believe there is a difference, I’ve had a variety of experiences to tell me that much. But I’m not certain enough to fully described it….if I had to take a guess in wording it about stability and purpose. Sorry for the vagueness.

Holy Cow what a great post! +1 and I wish I could give you more! There is nothing more to say!

[mfbukowski]

They only are illusions when the observation of the experiment affects the outcome of the experiment. (Quantum Physics inside joke).

And they always do. There are no facts, just interpretations.

[mfbukowski]

You all should be aware that as one gets older,there comes a point at which one can no longer REMEMBER what one thought one knew.

Good times,man, good times !

[DBMormon]

DB and Duncan, with all of the issues on the table that do not look good about the church there are those that can't deny the spirit they feel in our church and that keeps them firmly grounded. As well that might be the same for others in other faiths and their leaders getting guidance also. Could it be possible for there to be one belief in God and many institutions that God and his angels speak to?

Tacenda, I also think that critics and those who struggle with the size of the list fail to see Occam's razor works for the church as well.

There is a large enough list to lend credibility to the faith as well.

[Tacenda]

Tacenda, I also think that critics and those who struggle with the size of the list fail to see Occam's razor works for the church as well.

There is a large enough list to lend credibility to the faith as well.

There's so much credibility to how people live their lives in this church, I live among them. It's a choice way to live and a very service oriented way also. Like I've said before I think the Lord adopted our church and see's the love shared in it. Edited October 20, 2012 by Tacenda

[DBMormon]

There's so much credibility to how people live their lives in this church, I live among them. It's a choice way to live and a very service oriented way also. Like I've said before I think the Lord adopted our church and see's the love shared in it.

I don't want to but heads and while I respect your view and know we would be good friends if in the same ward, I must state here, I think he established our church not adopted it. While it has flaws, you might want to do some reading on how difficult it was to convince Peter that gentiles deserved the gospel, why didn't Jesus just visit him and straighten him out, and why allow the discord of opinion between Peter and the other apostles led by Paul and James. I wish I had my current Framework 15 years ago.... but I didn't and it was my false assumptions taught to me by others with False assumptions who I trusted to share the gospel in it's purity (inlcuding past leaders) that sat up my false reality. From the lowest to the highest in the church still hold some of these.

We have to figure a way to assist members through this transition while maintaining faith, we have to help fewer and fewer people hold these false assumptions so they don't pass them onto the next generation, and we have to be more open about our struggles which I think fixes the first two things.

DB

Edited October 20, 2012 by DBMormon

[volgadon]

He needs a little Rorty- that's all.

The problem is that he was still looking for a "truth" outside somewhere, when it's all really in here, with Christ also. He's in us and we are in him- there is nothing outside. We are all just sharing our inter-subjective views of the world thinking there really is something "out there" which has never been seen.

There ain't!

Christ is subjective but so is everything else. Inter-subjective to be sure at least the scientific stuff- but subjective nevertheless.

I think you might have misread Dostoevsky there. His view was deeply mystical, a sort of 19th c. intellectual and nationalistic Hesychast. A faith in Christ not only inspired his socialist leanings, it also connected him to the Russian people, that is, the peasents, and their "Russian soul." What, in essence, Dostoevsky was saying is that even if someone could prove to him rationally that Christ was false and his teachings false, he (Dostoevsky) would still choose his inner attachment to Christ above any external reality.

[wenglund]

I have no glib solace to offer. I will not bore you or insult your spiritual maturity with injunctions to pray harder, to fast more, to read your scriptures.

To an extent I agree with Bro. Givens. While prayer and fasting and scripture reading are important to continued spiritual growth, these things can become ineffectual when not engaged in with the right attitude and spirit and absent being mindful of their ultimate intent--i.e. bring us to Christ. In fact, absent these things, prayer and fasting and scripture reading may produce the opposite effect, like evoking pride and self-importance and dogmatism--things that are quite digressive and can really kill the spirit to the point that, like the Scribes and Pharisees and Sadducee of old, one is not able to recognize the Savior of mankind when he is before one's eyes.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited October 20, 2012 by wenglund

[DBMormon]

To an extent I agree with Bro. Givens. While prayer and fasting and scripture reading are important to continued spiritual growth, these things can become ineffectual when not engaged in with the right attitude and spirit and absent being mindful of their ultimate intent--i.e. bring us to Christ. In fact, absent these things, prayer and fasting and scripture reading may produce the opposite effect, like evoking pride and self-importance and dogmatism--things that are quite digressive and can really kill the spirit to the point that, like the Scribes and Pharisees and Sadducee of old, one is not able to recognize the Savior of mankind when he is before one's eyes.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Not what he is saying at all -

I have no glib solace to offer. I will not bore you or insult your spiritual maturity with injunctions to pray harder, to fast more, to read your scriptures.

He is sharing his opinion that we as faithful members are too quick to simply point a struggler back to the basics when that doesn't address his problem. Elder Marlin Jensen said the same thing. We need to give answers and not simply tell them to get in line. I agree those basics provide strength in these times but it needs to be proscribed after they get some answers to their questions

[mfbukowski]

I think you might have misread Dostoevsky there. His view was deeply mystical, a sort of 19th c. intellectual and nationalistic Hesychast. A faith in Christ not only inspired his socialist leanings, it also connected him to the Russian people, that is, the peasents, and their "Russian soul." What, in essence, Dostoevsky was saying is that even if someone could prove to him rationally that Christ was false and his teachings false, he (Dostoevsky) would still choose his inner attachment to Christ above any external reality.

Maybe you are right- I am not well read in Dostoevsky and will readily admit to it.

But my point is that if he understood Wittgenstein (Not possible of course ) he would know that there was no way that such a rational argument was possible, especially, I think in the context of Rorty who does not believe in such a thing as "external reality" which

Wittgenstein was also ultimately a mystic and knew that "external reality" if there is such a thing, has nothing to do things like one's relationship to Christ.

He was himself not a practicing Christian, but certainly that would be one possibility for a Wittgensteinian.

But quite possibly you are right about D.- I certainly am not in a position to comment I suppose.

[wenglund]

Not what he is saying at all -

I know. It was what I said (as made self-evident by the time stamp and signature), and should go without saying. No need to state the obvious.

He is sharing his opinion that we as faithful members are too quick to simply point a struggler back to the basics when that doesn't address his problem. Elder Marlin Jensen said the same thing. We need to give answers and not simply tell them to get in line.

If you would have taken pause from your typical knee-jerk reactions to my posts and given it a modicum of careful thought, you might have noticed that I agreed to an extent with what Given's said, but then I went on to express my own opinion.

He provided some useful suggestions about how to deal with certain symptoms of spiritual weakness (i.e. provide answer to troubling questions), which I somewhat agreed with; whereas I went on to consider plausible core causes of spiritual weakness (i.e. noting that the nature of the questions being asked may betray root problems in spiritual growth--like pride, forgetfulness, and loss of proper perspective and direction).

Neither the symptoms or the core causes of spiritual weakness may necessarily be cured merely by suggesting that the afflicted party pray, fast, and read the scriptures. Some times it requires suitable answers that may provide temporary relief, while other times it may require an attitude and perspective adjustment and a healthy dose of humility.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited October 22, 2012 by wenglund

[Lamanite]

I know. It was what I said (as made self-evident by the time stamp and signature), and should go without saying. No need to state the obvious.

If you would have taken pause from your typical knee-jerk reactions to my posts and given it a modicum of careful thought to what I actually said, you might have noticed that I agreed to an extent with what Given's said, but then I went on to express my own opinion.

He provided some useful suggestions about how to deal with certain symptoms of spiritual weakness (i.e. provide answer to troubling questions), which I somewhat agreed with; whereas I went on to consider plausible core causes of spiritual weakness (i.e. noting that the nature of the questions being asked may betray root problems in spiritual growth--like pride, forgetfulness, and loss of proper perspective and direction).

Neither the symptoms or the core causes of spiritual weakness may necessarily be cured merely by suggesting that the afflicted party pray, fast, and read the scriptures. Some times it requires suitable answers that may provide temporary relief, while other times it may require an attitude and perspective adjustment and a healthy dose of humility.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I wonder if someone can get the wrong "effect" from spiritual pursuits (prayer, fasting, scripture study) without having any glaring spiritual weaknesses? Specifically speaking, can one pray with all sincerity and lacking "spiritual weakness" that Mormonism is "true" and receive a negative response?

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Lamanite]

even if someone could prove to him rationally that Christ was false and his teachings false, he (Dostoevsky) would still choose his inner attachment to Christ above any external reality.

The fact that Dostoevsky could recognize this within himself and accept it is a beautiful example of honest self evaluation. Your use of "reality" is interesting. If we are using reality in a way that represents an external "Truth", would his attachment to Christ be flawed because its based on an internal attachment that opposes an external Truth? I may be reading more into your post so just correct me if that's the case.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[volgadon]

The fact that Dostoevsky could recognize this within himself and accept it is a beautiful example of honest self evaluation. Your use of "reality" is interesting. If we are using reality in a way that represents an external "Truth", would his attachment to Christ be flawed because its based on an internal attachment that opposes an external Truth? I may be reading more into your post so just correct me if that's the case.

Big UP!

Lamanite

What he was saying is that nothing you could show him would sway him from the inner truth he knew and accepted and to which he entirely attached himself. Personally, I think that is the point of a testimony, but I'm not sure how well it would go down with the doubters Givens was writing to. After all, Dostoevsky's advice is to ignore any rational, reasoned evidence. There is a stage at which our reason is insufficient by itself and we must either accept or reject the divine light of revelation.

[Lamanite]

What he was saying is that nothing you could show him would sway him from the inner truth he knew and accepted and to which he entirely attached himself. Personally, I think that is the point of a testimony, but I'm not sure how well it would go down with the doubters Givens was writing to. After all, Dostoevsky's advice is to ignore any rational, reasoned evidence. There is a stage at which our reason is insufficient by itself and we must either accept or reject the divine light of revelation.

The great thing about thought experiments is that they allow you to explore things like this. Let's say somehow we could prove all the faith based claims of Mormonism false, what would you do? In my experiment, I would pause. And the next step I would take is to stay the course.

Mormonism allows me to view the Universe, the world, and my own experience in a way that brings me satisfaction and joy. Honestly I don't want to entertain any theology that doesn't promise me eternity with my family. That one doctrine and promise of Mormonism is enough to make me a believer. Why? Because I want to believe it.

After performing the experiment I'm able to reinsert all of the spiritual experiences I've had which reinforce my beliefs and allow me a more rounded and complete religious experience. Communication with the divine justifies my beliefs. But the experiment was interesting.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[wenglund]

I wonder if someone can get the wrong "effect" from spiritual pursuits (prayer, fasting, scripture study) without having any glaring spiritual weaknesses? Specifically speaking, can one pray with all sincerity and lacking "spiritual weakness" that Mormonism is "true" and receive a negative response? Big UP! Lamanite

I am somewhat confused by your question. Typically, and by design, the Moroni 10 prayer regarding the "truth" of the restored gospel comes at the beginning of one's faith journey in Mormonism. It is what sets one on the path of progression in LDS faith. Since it comes at the beginning of the path of progression, then logically it is the point of least strength in faith or the greatest spiritual weakness, upon which one may then build from there by way of applied faith as per Alma 32.

Whereas, those who continue to progress in faith have no need to ask again what has already been answered for them and confirmed and strengthened through their growth in faith. They would only have need to do so if they, for the reasons I have suggested (among others), experienced a point of spiritual weakness.

In other words, the Moroni prayer seems to me to only be appropriate and necessary at times of spiritual weakness.

Be that as it may, and for various reasons (in addition to spiritual weakness), people can receive a negative answer. It is quite conceivable that God may think it best for certain individuals to travel for a time on an alternative spiritual path--a preparatory path that may eventual lead, when they are ready, to the fullness of his gospel, whether in this life or the next.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Lamanite]

Be that as it may, and for various reasons (in addition to spiritual weakness), people can receive a negative answer. It is quite conceivable that God may think it best for certain individuals to travel for a time on an alternative spiritual path--a preparatory path that may eventual lead, when they are ready, to the fullness of his gospel, whether in this life or the next.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Sorry for the messy post, I was on the way out. You basically got the gist of my post. I agree.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[DBMormon]

Be that as it may, and for various reasons (in addition to spiritual weakness), people can receive a negative answer. It is quite conceivable that God may think it best for certain individuals to travel for a time on an alternative spiritual path--a preparatory path that may eventual lead, when they are ready, to the fullness of his gospel, whether in this life or the next.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I do like this Wade.... and feel the same way that this is possible for some.

[Gervin]

It is quite conceivable that God may think it best for certain individuals to travel for a time on an alternative spiritual path--a preparatory path that may eventual lead, when they are ready, to the fullness of his gospel, whether in this life or the next.

Just curious; is this actually taught by the church or is it your response to those who aren't answered in the affirmative?

[mfbukowski]

Just curious; is this actually taught by the church or is it your response to those who aren't answered in the affirmative?

I cannot answer for Wade, but I believe this too- absolutely. Though not taught directly, I don't think, the idea is definitely consistent with many statements and with the idea that there is truth in all religions.

I have heard stories of individuals who have testified that they were inspired to leave the church, perform a specific life mission in which they learned things they needed to learn, and then return to the church.

And though I did not read much of this thead- I think it points exactly to such an experience

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/59041-don-bradleys-return-to-the-church/

[Gervin]

I cannot answer for Wade, but I believe this too- absolutely. Though not taught directly, I don't think, the idea is definitely consistent with many statements and with the idea that there is truth in all religions.

I have heard stories of individuals who have testified that they were inspired to leave the church, perform a specific life mission in which they learned things they needed to learn, and then return to the church.

And though I did not read much of this thead- I think it points exactly to such an experience

http://www.mormondia...-to-the-church/

So, although the scripture says, "... he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost" you believe that "he might or might not manifest the truth of it unto you." Correct? [emphasis mine]