Polygamy Fundamentally Sexist?

[cursor]

I was in a situation where polygamy was practiced around me. None of the women liked it. I was Muslim.

That's interesting. I've never met an ex-Muslim convert.

Surely, this doesn't invalidate her observation. Right?

Edited October 9, 2012 by cursor

[KevinG]

Surely, this doesn't invalidate her observation. Right?

What? Nobody said anything bigoted so you have to plant the idea?

[cursor]

I said nothing of bigotry.

Apparently it's time to engage in alternative activity. I wish you a wonderful and a constructive evening..

[mfbukowski]

I see you and raise you one teen daughter. Gentleman or Dead are my only choices.

Not to mention well dressed at all times. I get official notices when my t-shirt doesn't match my camo shorts.

What DOES go with camo shorts anyway??

[Tacenda]

My experience with polygamy was in Muslim culture. In Islam, often the woman does not get a choice. Both of the women I talked to said they did not like it but had to put up with it.

My childhood experience was with a beaten down Mother, married to an Amish man. She obeyed him, as we all did. When my older brothers got big enough they beat him up, completely turning the tables until they left. So, I was completely inured to be obedient. Being Mormon has been the surprise of my life! Men who are nice, gentle, and seek Heavenly Father, though it is far too late for me to marry one.

LDS men and women are pretty awesome but they are surrounding me daily so they're all I've known really. I've run across some of a different faith on occasion and they are wonderful too. This would be my first meeting through cyber space of meeting a Muslim turned LDS. I'm glad you don't have the threat of death for turning away from the Muslim belief.

[cursor]

To EllenMaksoud:

I'm sorry for your life experience, as it relates to polygamous men. I expect that I'l be sympathetically thinking of your situation for several days to come. Very kind regards to you.

[EllenMaksoud]

LDS men and women are pretty awesome but they are surrounding me daily so they're all I've known really. I've run across some of a different faith on occasion and they are wonderful too. This would be my first meeting through cyber space of meeting a Muslim turned LDS. I'm glad you don't have the threat of death for turning away from the Muslim belief.

If I was not in the North American Colonies, it could be dangerous for me, especially in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Here Muslims really are not dangerous.

[volgadon]

What DOES go with camo shorts anyway??

Scars.

[KevinG]

There are other issues with the way women are treated in some cultures and religious belief systems that have nothing to do with the number of wives.

Polygamy like Monogamy can be abused or it can be done successfully. History validates it as a functional choice in some cultures including many pioneer Mormon women who wrote of it first hand.

[KevinG]

I said nothing of bigotry.

Apparently it's time to engage in alternative activity. I wish you a wonderful and a constructive evening..

Apparently it's time to flounce off in a huff instead of having to explain your linking someones curiosity over meeting a Muslim convert with the possibility they might use that fact to invalidate the converts message. The implication was not flattering to swfarnsworth.

If that wasn't your intent or implied judgement please explain the statements more clearly so others might understand your intent.

Edited October 9, 2012 by KevinG

[cursor]

All I said, Kevin, was "surely, this doesn't invalidate her observation. Right?"

There's nothing at all accusatory in that question. It's simply a request for clarification or reassurance. Certainly, nothing sinister was intended.

There is no "linking someone[']s curiosity over meeting a Muslim convert with the possibility they might use that fact to invalidate the convert[']s message."

And, I'm hardly "flounc[ing] of in a huff." I'm totally calm, with a passive grin on my face.

I'd stick around to chat, but have some fresh bread dough that needs kneading. Have a wonderful evening.

Edited October 9, 2012 by cursor

[cursor]

I have been to those countries where muslims practice polygamy and I know they treat their women as little more the brood mares. One village elder told me, "women are for babies, boys are for pleasure." I cant even think of an example were a woman was treated well enough that I would feel comfortable with my wife in that situation. I don't blame the muslim religion for this, but I do blame the culture of the countries that allow muslim polygamy.

I appreciate your feedback. Thanks.

[KevinG]

I am still unclear as why you felt the need to have swfarnsworth clarify that his curiosity had nothing to do with invalidating her opinion. And unclear how the statement you were going to leave the discussion isn't a flounce or a huff.

But in the spirit of concilliation and reflecting your writing style:

"Surely you wouldn't be splitting hairs in order to cover an awkward presumption that swfarnsworth or other posters could be prejudiced by his knowledge of someones religion conversion."

(There that's a neutral observation right?)

[mfbukowski]

Scars.

LOL!

[cursor]

I'm sorry, but since I don't know swfarnswort (Perhaps you do), reasonable clarification might be important to me. I was hardly rude.

And unclear how the statement you were going to leave the discussion isn't a flounce or a huff.

Like I said, I have bread dough to knead. I mixed the dough ... then since I had a couple of minutes in my schedule to look at a couple of MormonDialogue threads ... I made a couple of comments. Now the yeast has reached a point where I can't dilly-dally any longer.

Seriously, no offense was intended nor expressed. Again, have a wonderful evening.

[KevinG]

Nice to know. You have a wonderful evening too.

[cursor]

I am still unclear as why you felt the need to have swfarnsworth clarify that his curiosity had nothing to do with invalidating her opinion. And unclear how the statement you were going to leave the discussion isn't a flounce or a huff.

But in the spirit of concilliation and reflecting your writing style:

"Surely you wouldn't be splitting hairs in order to cover an awkward presumption that swfarnsworth or other posters could be prejudiced by his knowledge of someones religion conversion."

(There that's a neutral observation right?)

The quote that you offer above is NOT mine. It is your inaccurate interpretation of what you think that I MIGHT have meant. As previously and clearly indicated, I very simply suggested that some clarification might be helpful.

Edited October 9, 2012 by cursor

[Stargazer]

"SWT" is an honorific. It is Subhanna Wa Tallah, or great and glorious is he. We Mormons do something similar in that mostly I hear Heavenly Father rather than God, and am told that we do it because the simple word God is too familiar. I would tend to agree.

One of the things that surprised me about being Mormon is that there is pressure from other women to wear what feels like to me far too little clothing. For a while I tried the short sleeves, and knee length skirt but it felt odd, so I have reverted back to long sleeves, with very long skirt. I have decided that is proper for me.

That's excellent, you do that. I've seen some sisters at church who I wish would leave a little bit more to the imagination as to their feminine characteristics, so I appreciate that.

When it comes to female modesty, I can somewhat understand the customs regarding the Hijab and Burka (sp), in that heterosexual men have a hard enough time keeping their thoughts on proper topics without women going around causing them to pant like dogs over the sight.

[Stargazer]

Just look around you. I know of several Mormon families with like 5 girls and one boy. Though I have not studied the matter carefully yet, I was looking at some very recent birth statistics and it seems, at least temporarily, that in some populations there are more girls being born than boys, in some cases by a ratio of 3:1. Of interest also is that in so called, "white" American populations in the US, the birth rate is far below that required to sustain populations. Interestingly, the birth rate among Hispanic and Muslim populations is a great deal higher.

This is a very interesting study and not well developed yet. I am surmising that the birth rate among Mormon populations is higher also. I hope that the races that inherit this country in the next 50 years are better than we were.

So, if this decline in male population is more than temporary, will that make polygamy necessary again? On another front, does that mean that women will lose rights? Or, with the increase of numbers of women, will we have more power. If so, I hope that we do better than our present patriarchal society.

Well, I did MY part, at least. Four boys, one girl.

I am given to understand that the birth rate in Iran has dropped below replacement level. Apparently the repression has caused the wombs of the country to shut. They will pay a hefty price in 20 years, or sooner.

[EllenMaksoud]

That's excellent, you do that. I've seen some sisters at church who I wish would leave a little bit more to the imagination as to their feminine characteristics, so I appreciate that.

When it comes to female modesty, I can somewhat understand the customs regarding the Hijab and Burka (sp), in that heterosexual men have a hard enough time keeping their thoughts on proper topics without women going around causing them to pant like dogs over the sight.

I do not think Burqua (Head and Face covering) is recommended. Originally it was for woman to show husband how much she valued him. Among Bedouin tribes in Western Egypt this was so. The stranger got no respect and no face covering. This is backward from Western understanding. An interesting, but a bit dry book on Bedouin tribal society is in a book called, "Veiled Sentiments". It covers all this. Perhaps head scarf, (Hijab) will someday come to our culture.

The GA took a long time to deliberate on my baptisim application because I had been Muslim. Perhaps they anticipated the culture shock I would feel, and they did correctly.

I think that women could accept some responsibility for how they affect men, but this would not want to go too far. We are not the slaves of the men. It is a balance. I have a dress from Jen Clothing that meets the requirement for LDS women's clothing. Wow. If I wore much less, someone would say, "ewww, cover that up will you?"

[Saints Alive]

Along the same vein, it is interesting to look at the practice of veiling in Catholicism. It used to be common place until the feminist movement.

[Stargazer]

The GA took a long time to deliberate on my baptisim application because I had been Muslim. Perhaps they anticipated the culture shock I would feel, and they did correctly.

I doubt that culture shock was the issue. The Church apparently has a policy to be careful about accepting Muslim converts because of the personal danger the convert might be subject to, depending upon his or her former co-religionists's reaction. For example, the current Mayor of Ouelessebougou, Mali (and candidate for President in that country), Yeah Samake, is the only known Latter-day Saint in Mali. They took some time approving his application for baptism for exactly that reason, but upon his assurances that Malians were open about such things, they relented.

[EllenMaksoud]

Along the same vein, it is interesting to look at the practice of veiling in Catholicism. It used to be common place until the feminist movement.

In my thinking, the feminist movement happened in the 70's, does this agree with your assessment? Women were much more modest in the 50's. My mom and my sisters did not leave the farm without scarf, dress and good shoes. I thought that this was owing to the influence of my Amish stepfather. I was so little that I do not remember in great detail. Feminisim did some good, but a great deal of harm too. Interestingly, some of the other non LDS women and I were talking, and much to my surprise, The young women still do not feel like they have equal rights.

[KevinG]

Wow a Muslima with an Amish stepfather!! You must have a very unique perspective on religion and culture.

One of my closest Mormon friends grew up in Philly as a Jew during the same time frame as your youth. Her perspectives on doctrine and practices are very valuable.

Edited October 10, 2012 by KevinG

[Saints Alive]

In my thinking, the feminist movement happened in the 70's, does this agree with your assessment? Women were much more modest in the 50's. My mom and my sisters did not leave the farm without scarf, dress and good shoes. I thought that this was owing to the influence of my Amish stepfather. I was so little that I do not remember in great detail. Feminisim did some good, but a great deal of harm too. Interestingly, some of the other non LDS women and I were talking, and much to my surprise, The young women still do not feel like they have equal rights.

My opinion is that feminism used a wrecking-ball where a scalpel would have been better. In some aspects the feminist movement achieved things that were very good. In other areas (modesty for one) I think they set society back.