EllenMaksoud Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 Wow a Muslima with an Amish stepfather!! You must have a very unique perspective on religion and culture.One of my closest Mormon friends grew up in Philly as a Jew during the same time frame as your youth. Her perspectives on doctrine and practices are very valuable.I was Muslim for 7 years, so while Islamic culture influenced and in some ways educated me, I am still very American.
EllenMaksoud Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 My opinion is that feminism used a wrecking-ball where a scalpel would have been better. In some aspects the feminist movement achieved things that were very good. In other areas (modesty for one) I think they set society back.Agreed. Going back to Genesis 2:18, the problem surfaces. Heavenly Father made us helpers, but many men, living according to their lower natures, felt that we were slaves. Growing up, the men around me were boors; brutal, abusive and ungodly. In the 70's with the daemon of feminism at full roar, even good men were criticised, demonized and emasculated. The answer to the problem is all around us, but we are so taken to listening to Dr Phil, and our Godless mental health counselors that we do not do what the scripture tells us to do.Muslim women know what it is to be property, especially in other countries. Still one of my Muslim sisters, an immigrant, told me that her husband uses the Qur'an against her to have power over her. I can't imagine living like that.So, I was greatly surprised one day in Relief Society, when one of the women, a lifelong Mormon of about 70 years, told me that many years ago, women did exactly what the husband said. If anything went wrong, it was her fault..So, now days, some women know how to stand up against an abusive husband somewhat. It is in our natures to be nurturing. I wish there were lots more men who knew how to really be men; gentle, kind, powerful. We were crafted by Heavenly Father to be a pair, reinforcing each other in a nurturing way. 2
KevinG Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 I was Muslim for 7 years, so while Islamic culture influenced and in some ways educated me, I am still very American. In some ways you are the epitome of the American melting pot.
EllenMaksoud Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 In some ways you are the epitome of the American melting pot. Actually, I was born in the USA. My ancestors came from Alsace, and the UK, I think around 1735?Heavenly Father, or God as I used to know him, is the center of my life. When I was much younger, things, houses, possessions, clothes and all that distracted me. It is my hope that present day immigrants will adapt also.
EllenMaksoud Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 I doubt that culture shock was the issue. The Church apparently has a policy to be careful about accepting Muslim converts because of the personal danger the convert might be subject to, depending upon his or her former co-religionists's reaction. For example, the current Mayor of Ouelessebougou, Mali (and candidate for President in that country), Yeah Samake, is the only known Latter-day Saint in Mali. They took some time approving his application for baptism for exactly that reason, but upon his assurances that Malians were open about such things, they relented.The church is astonishingly, pleasantly protective of me. I feel more secure now than I have in my entire life. And I am LDS because the Holy Spirit resisted my wounded soul and it feels like he actually took me captive for a while. Much later, I am quite happy and content to be LDS and learning more about Heavenly Father every day. I still see some of my Muslim sisters, but my home is with Jesus Christ's church.
Batgirlsmom Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 There weren't more women than men in Utah during the bulk of the polygamy years. Polygamy did not produce more children than the same number of women in monogamous marriages would. There is ample evidence that favoritism and lack of financial or material support was not uncommon and went unpunished during the Utah polygamous time period. Quotes from general authorities of the time definitely point to a view that women were considered commodities. So, as it was practiced by members of the early Church, yes, sexism was a key component in polygynous marriages.Is sexism inherent in all polygamous unions? First polygamy covers many forms of marriage with multiple persons. Read a Heinlein novel for a good review of all that. Even among consenting polygynous (one man, two of more women) unions sexism can exist if there is a disparity in power/authority among members of the marriage based upon gender. Consent does not equate with equality.
Batgirlsmom Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 So the answer is truly that it is not a polygamous marriage (in any of there many varieties) that is inherently sexist. If one subscribes to the concept of polyamory it can be viewed as a beautiful lifestyle from what I've read and seen. It is the culture that dictates inequality in power in a marriage. And, any culture which views the acquisition of multiple wives under the premise of God's Will is ripe for the view of women as commodities for various functions (ie for attainment of godhood, for breeding purposes (armies of children in this life or the next, for sexual gratification - or "rejuvenation" as you can see it called by early LDS leaders).
KevinG Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) All the problems you described with polygamy can and do exist in Monogamous marriage.It is not the arrangement but the diligence in honoring the arrangement that is important in marriage.My pet theory as to why polygamy won't be reinstated as a practice in this life is because we are so terrible at making monogamy work. Edited October 11, 2012 by KevinG
Saints Alive Posted October 11, 2012 Author Posted October 11, 2012 All the problems you described with polygamy can and do exist in Monogamous marriage.It is not the arrangement but the diligence in honoring the arrangement that is important in marriage...Kevin: I think you summarized my view very succinctly. 1
Bart Burk Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 Tangent from another thread. Is polygamy fundamentally sexist? I don't see how having multiple wives, assuming each is a willing partner and treated equally, is fundamentally sexist. Or at least not any more sexist that monogamy. Is the whole argument really just that the man has more than one wife and the wife can only have one husband?My biggest complaint with polygamy is that many men would unavoidably not have the opportunity to marry if powerful men dominated the selection process. Let's face it -- if you have 26 wives that may mean that 25 other men won't have women to marry.
Saints Alive Posted October 11, 2012 Author Posted October 11, 2012 I think we can all agree that 26 would be a bit excessive. But, given the number of single sisters in the church is higher than the number of single men it would be nice for them to have the opportunity of a temple marriage.
KevinG Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 Right now I have first hand knowledge of half a dozen women my wife would willingly let me support as a husband because they do not have a responsible man in their life.We don't practice it, and I do support them with friendship and service but there are things a brother cannot do for a sister that these women would gladly have from a worthy man.Arguing there aren't enough women to go around isn't a convincing argument against polygamy. Although the world would be a better place if that were true.
Bart Burk Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 Right now I have first hand knowledge of half a dozen women my wife would willingly let me support as a husband because they do not have a responsible man in their life.We don't practice it, and I do support them with friendship and service but there are things a brother cannot do for a sister that these women would gladly have from a worthy man.Arguing there aren't enough women to go around isn't a convincing argument against polygamy. Although the world would be a better place if that were true.I used to believe that, but I've seen many of the women in that situation eventually find good men within monogomous marriages. And I've also seen "unworthy" men become good husbands.
KevinG Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 I used to believe that, but I've seen many of the women in that situation eventually find good men within monogomous marriages. And I've also seen "unworthy" men become good husbands.That is of course the best solution. But I'm not talking about the pretty young re-marriageable types. I'm talking about middle aged (like me), in dire straights, past childbearing years and given up on the singles program women who are resigned to the next life before someone provides for them as a husband again. Kind of like many of Brigham's wives. 2
Bart Burk Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 That is of course the best solution. But I'm not talking about the pretty young re-marriageable types. I'm talking about middle aged (like me), in dire straights, past childbearing years and given up on the singles program women who are resigned to the next life before someone provides for them as a husband again. Kind of like many of Brigham's wives.I guess I never thought so highly of myself to believe that I could rescue these poor women by marrying them. It is possible to help these women without getting legal permission to have sexual intercourse with them.
Saints Alive Posted October 11, 2012 Author Posted October 11, 2012 I guess I never thought so highly of myself to believe that I could rescue these poor women by marrying them. It is possible to help these women without getting legal permission to have sexual intercourse with them.Is it possible to marry someone without expecting sexual intercourse?You can help someone as a spouse more than as a friend in some cases. Anything from health and life insurance to housing, etc.
Bart Burk Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) Is it possible to marry someone without expecting sexual intercourse?You can help someone as a spouse more than as a friend in some cases. Anything from health and life insurance to housing, etc.I doubt there are many health insurers who would cover a second wife. You can help with housing without putting them under your roof. And let us get real -- most polygamous marriage includes marital relations. Edited October 12, 2012 by Bart Burk
Saints Alive Posted October 11, 2012 Author Posted October 11, 2012 I don't know if I could afford a second mortgage or rent but I could definitely let someone stay in my spare bedroom (not that I want a second wife or anything). If polygamy were common place I bet you would see the ability to add a second spouse to the policy. It wouldn't really cost the company anymore than a dependent child, or heck the child that stays on the policy until they are 26. I think there are even some policies that let divorced spouses stay on the policy.
Calm Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 I doubt there are many health insurers who would cover a second wife. You can help with housing without putting them under your roof. And lot us get real -- most polygamous marriage includes marital relations.It would be more cost effective to live under one roof though as happens at times when family members live with multiple generations together. 1
KevinG Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 There is a high degree of intimacy you can have in a marital partnership that has nothing to do with sex.I already said I do as much for many of these sisters as appropriately allowed as do many of the other High Priests I know. I also pray and hope that decent worthy men will come along and marry these good sisters who are desirous of having a worthy eternal partner.The shallow sexually oriented friends with benefits view of marriage is EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I say we don't even know how to do monogamy right enough to expect polygamy to make sense.If anyone is still confused as to what these sisters could have out of plural marriage that they cannot have being single other than sex then I cannot help you understand monogamy or polygamy any better than you do now. 2
Batgirlsmom Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 Why would any of those women want to marry a man who already has a wife? From my experience as a woman in the Church it is quite uncommon for any woman to view with satisfaction the concept of "second wife". And, to extend the logic of the posts immediately preceding this one: My husband and I know of a number if single, good men who are in need of a wife. Should we extend them offers of marriage? Why not? For the simple reason I am a woman?
Batgirlsmom Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 BTW, according to the Book of Mormon the sole reason multiple wives is ever, ever allowed by The Lord is for the propagation of children. That requires either sexual intercourse or some means of artificial insemination. So, yes, the LDS concept of plural marriage is tightly built around the sexual act.
Batgirlsmom Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 Excuse my typos. I'm typing on a smart phone and between my clumsy fingers and its spell check I'm getting the occasional weird moment in my posts. Let me know if any of these typos need clarification.
Tacenda Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 Excuse my typos. I'm typing on a smart phone and between my clumsy fingers and its spell check I'm getting the occasional weird moment in my posts. Let me know if any of these typos need clarification. No typos yet. I do agree with your statement about what the BoM says about polygamy being able to raise seed. Not take care of widowed, etc. One can do that without marrying them. Marrying several women at one time will not do the job either. The women would raise more seed if they married in a monogamous (sp?) marriage.
Saints Alive Posted October 12, 2012 Author Posted October 12, 2012 Why would any of those women want to marry a man who already has a wife? From my experience as a woman in the Church it is quite uncommon for any woman to view with satisfaction the concept of "second wife". How many of those women have lived in a society where it would be seen as even remotely acceptable to have a second wife? That is where those womens feelings come from, not from any logical or universal morality.
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