Question: Who Is Considered A "Gentile?"

[RobertAC]

I understand that Mormons have used the term "Gentile" to refer to a non-Mormon in, what I presume, is the same way that a Jew would refer to a non-Jew. But is my presumption correct?

Some related questions:

1. Do LDS refer to Jews as "Gentiles" too if they are non-Mormon?

2. If Jews are not Gentiles in the eyes of LDS, is it because of the Jew's religious belief, or is it because of the Jew's enthnicity? Put another way, would a Jewish atheist be considered a Jew, or would he/she be a Gentile?

3. Is their any differences between Mormon denominations as to the use of the word "Gentile?" For example, does Community of Christ use the term in the same way as LDS?

Thanks for any clarification that can be given!

[Scott Lloyd]

I understand that Mormons have used the term "Gentile" to refer to a non-Mormon in, what I presume, is the same way that a Jew would refer to a non-Jew. But is my presumption correct?

Some related questions:

1. Do LDS refer to Jews as "Gentiles" too if they are non-Mormon?

2. If Jews are not Gentiles in the eyes of LDS, is it because of the Jew's religious belief, or is it because of the Jew's enthnicity? Put another way, would a Jewish atheist be considered a Jew, or would he/she be a Gentile?

3. Is their any differences between Mormon denominations as to the use of the word "Gentile?" For example, does Community of Christ use the term in the same way as LDS?

Thanks for any clarification that can be given!

The word Gentile means "nations." It designates any who are not part of the covenant people of God.

Latter-day Saints regard themselves to be partakers of the covenant of Abraham. That is why, in times past, non-Mormons have been called Gentiles.

I don't think it can properly be said that Jews are Gentiles, even from the Mormon perspective, as Jews are seen as heirs of the obligations and promises of the Abrahamic covenant insofar as they live up to that covenant.

I'm not well-enough acquainted with the Community of Christ to say how they use the term Gentile. I don't know that it's proper to call them a "Mormon denomination," however. I know that they don't accept the nickname "Mormon" for themselves.

[RobertAC]

Thanks Scott!

[Robert F. Smith]

I don't think it can properly be said that Jews are Gentiles, even from the Mormon perspective, as Jews are seen as heirs of the obligations and promises of the Abrahamic covenant insofar as they live up to that covenant.

The Jews, whom I have never heard being called "gentiles" by Mormons (although it is a standing joke within the Jewish community), are the heirs of an unconditional covenant, the covenant of Abraham. They constitute an ethnicity which is self-defining, and St Paul in Romans 11 and Jacob 5 make clear that they are primus inter pares at the end time.

[urroner]

From the omniscient and never wrong wikipedia:

he term Gentile (from Latin gentilis, by the French "gentil", female: "gentille", meaning of or belonging to a clan or tribe) is used by English translators for the Hebrew, גוי (goy) and נכרי (nokhri) in the Hebrew Bible and the Greek word ἔθνη (éthnē) in the New Testament.

The term gentiles is derived from Latin, used for contextual translation, and not an original Hebrew or Greek word from the Bible. The original words Goy and Ethnos refer to "peoples" or "nations". Latin and later English translators selectively used the term gentiles when the context for the base term "peoples" or "nations" referred to non-Israelite peoples or nations in English translations of the Bible.

Following Christianization of the Roman Empire, the general implication of the word gentile became "non-Jew".

Latin etymology

Gentile derives from Latin gens (from which, together with forms of the cognate Greek word genos, also derive gene, general, genus and genesis). The original meaning of "clan" or "family" was extended in post-Augustan Latin to acquire the wider meaning of belonging to a distinct nation or ethnicity. Later still the word came to refer to other nations, 'not a Roman citizen'. After the Christianization of the empire it could also be used of pagan or barbarian cultures.

In the Bible

In Saint Jerome's Latin version of the Bible, the Vulgate, gentilis was used in this wider sense, along with gentes, to translate Greek and Hebrew words with similar meanings when the text referred to the non-Hebrew peoples.

The most important of such Hebrew words was goyim (singular, goy), a term with the broad meaning of "peoples" or "nations" which was sometimes used to refer to Israelites, but most commonly as a generic label for peoples. Strong's Concordance defines goy as "nation, people, usually of non-Hebrew people, or of descendants of Abraham, or of Israel, or of a swarm of locusts or other animals (fig.) Goyim = 'nations'." Strongs #1471^[1]

In the King James Version, Gentile is only one of several words used to translate goy or goyim. It is translated as "nation" 374 times, "heathen" 143 times, "Gentiles" 30 times, and "people" 11 times. Some of these verses, such as Genesis 12:2 ("I will make of thee a great nation") and Genesis 25:23 ("Two nations are in thy womb") refer to Israelites or descendants of Abraham. Other verses, such as Isaiah 2:4 and Deuteronomy 11:23 are generic references to any nation. Typically the KJV restricts the translation to "Gentile" when the text is specifically referring to non-Hebrew people. For example, the only use of the word in Genesis is in chapter 10, verse 5, referring to the peopling of the world by descendants of Japheth, "By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations."^[2]

In the New Testament, the Greek word "ethnos" is used for peoples or nations in general, and is typically translated by the word "people", as in John 11:50 ("Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not."). The translation "gentiles" is used in some instances, as in Matthew 10:5–6 to indicate non-Israelite peoples:

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

[3]

In that instance, Gentiles becomes a reference to pagan cultures of the period.

Altogether, the word is used 123 times in the King James Version of the Bible,^[4] and 168 times in the New Revised Standard Version.^[5]

Interesting stuff. I guess Jew and Gentile meant something similar to Greek and barbarian.

[Alan]

Who is considered a Gentile and who is a Gentile can be quite interesting. Firstly, considered by whom? From an LDS perspective, no member of the LDS church is considered a Gentile, irrespective of lineage. However, this does not necessarily mean all non-LDS are. Obviously one would immediately assume that a Jew is not a Gentile, but we need to understand what we mean. most of the Jews currently located in Israel (ie. European Jews) are descended from proselytes who converted to Judaism and have no genetic link to Abraham; yet they are considered Jewish and therefore non-Gentile.

Within the church we know that many of the peoples of northern Europe are Israelites by descent but are considered by both themselves and the world at large to be Gentiles.

It is a very complicated picture.

It is quite interesting to note that when a peace conference was called to address the Arab-Israeli conflict some decades ago, the question of a neutral location came up. Apparently, Mosche Dyan said something like "why don't we hold it in Salt Lake City. We're all Gentiles there."

[volgadon]

but we need to understand what we mean. most of the Jews currently located in Israel (ie. European Jews) are descended from proselytes who converted to Judaism and have no genetic link to Abraham

Patent, Koestlerian nonsense.

[Atomic Punk]

When I was serving my mission in Holland back in the early 80's my companion showed me the definition of Gentile in a Dutch dictionary he owned. It said - Not Jewish. Not Mormon.

No kidding.

[KevinG]

I propose another definition. Descendants of Abraham to whom God said "don't eat that". Of course that would necessarily include Muslims too.

[Thunderfire]

I understand that Mormons have used the term "Gentile" to refer to a non-Mormon in, what I presume, is the same way that a Jew would refer to a non-Jew. But is my presumption correct?

3. Is their any differences between Mormon denominations as to the use of the word "Gentile?" For example, does Community of Christ use the term in the same way as LDS?

Many in the Community of Christ view the "Gentiles" as those who are not of the House of Israel.

[RobertAC]

Many in the Community of Christ view the "Gentiles" as those who are not of the House of Israel.

Would I be correct that the Community of Christ would view its members (and potentially LDS members) as of the House of Israel?

[Thunderfire]

Would I be correct that the Community of Christ would view its members (and potentially LDS members) as of the House of Israel?

I cannot speak to the beliefs of all the members. But some in the Community of Christ see themselves as being part of the House of Israel and claim all the scripture promises according to this line of belief. As example, I have the Patriarchal Blessings of my ancestors going back to 1860 (great reads for sure) and lineage in the House of Israel was very important to them. Some still today search out tribal lineage in the House of Israel and cling to it.

What this means: They also believe that "other members" of the House of Israel are in the different restoration factions. They begin to view their relationship with other restoration saints in a different perspective. We become connected in something much larger than our individual denominations; leading to something even greater being the Church of the Firstborn, Bride of Christ, Kingdom of God on earth line of thought.

Let me ask a question: How often do you encounter someone who believes in tribal identity in the House of Israel that is NOT from Ephraim?

[Robert F. Smith]

Who is considered a Gentile and who is a Gentile can be quite interesting. Firstly, considered by whom? From an LDS perspective, no member of the LDS church is considered a Gentile, irrespective of lineage. However, this does not necessarily mean all non-LDS are. Obviously one would immediately assume that a Jew is not a Gentile, but we need to understand what we mean. most of the Jews currently located in Israel (ie. European Jews) are descended from proselytes who converted to Judaism and have no genetic link to Abraham; yet they are considered Jewish and therefore non-Gentile.

Within the church we know that many of the peoples of northern Europe are Israelites by descent but are considered by both themselves and the world at large to be Gentiles.

It is a very complicated picture.

It is quite interesting to note that when a peace conference was called to address the Arab-Israeli conflict some decades ago, the question of a neutral location came up. Apparently, Mosche Dyan said something like "why don't we hold it in Salt Lake City. We're all Gentiles there."

I must agree with volgadon that this is "Patent, Koestlerian nonsense." Perhaps even bigoted.

I already pointed out the standing Jewish joke about Jews being "Gentiles" in SLC, even though it is based on complete ignorance.

David Reich of Harvard was astonished in 2011 that Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jews were actually related to one another via DNA – “Population genetics reveals shared ancestries: DNA links modern Europeans, Middle Easterners to Sub-Saharan Africans,” ScienceDaily, May 24, 2011 (Harvard Medical School). Retrieved June 4, 2011, from http://www.scienceda...10524153536.htm . Many people are surprised (very surprised even among Jews) that most Jews worldwide are closely related through DNA.

See also Priya Moorjani, David Reich, et al., “The History of African Gene Flow into Southern Europeans, Levantines, and Jews.” PLoS Genetics, 7/4 (21 Apr 2011), 1371-1373, online at http://genetics.med....orjani_PLOS.pdf ; Gil Atzmon, et al., “Abraham's Children in the Genome Era: Major Jewish Diaspora Populations Comprise Distinct Genetic Clusters with Shared Middle Eastern Ancestry,” American Journal of Human Genetics, 10 (June 2010), 1016; “Common genetic threads link thousands of years of Jewish ancestry,” ScienceDaily, June 4, 2011. Retrieved June 4, 2011, from http://www.scienceda...00603123707.htm ..

Edited October 5, 2012 by Robert F. Smith

[volgadon]

I must agree with volgadon that this is "Patent, Koestlerian nonsense." Perhaps even bigoted.

I already pointed out the standing Jewish joke about Jews being "Gentiles" in SLC, even though it is based on complete ignorance.

David Reich of Harvard was astonished in 2011 that Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jews were actually related to one another via DNA – “Population genetics reveals shared ancestries: DNA links modern Europeans, Middle Easterners to Sub-Saharan Africans,” ScienceDaily, May 24, 2011 (Harvard Medical School). Retrieved June 4, 2011, from http://www.scienceda...10524153536.htm . Many people are surprised (very surprised even among Jews) that most Jews worldwide are closely related through DNA.

See also Priya Moorjani, David Reich, et al., “The History of African Gene Flow into Southern Europeans, Levantines, and Jews.” PLoS Genetics, 7/4 (21 Apr 2011), 1371-1373, online at http://genetics.med....orjani_PLOS.pdf ; Gil Atzmon, et al., “Abraham's Children in the Genome Era: Major Jewish Diaspora Populations Comprise Distinct Genetic Clusters with Shared Middle Eastern Ancestry,” American Journal of Human Genetics, 10 (June 2010), 1016; “Common genetic threads link thousands of years of Jewish ancestry,” ScienceDaily, June 4, 2011. Retrieved June 4, 2010, from http://www.scienceda...00603123707.htm ..

Thanks. There is also a studying showing how close the DNA is between Arabs descended from Jewish converts to Islam and Ashkenazi Jews are.

[Robert F. Smith]

Thanks. There is also a studying showing how close the DNA is between Arabs descended from Jewish converts to Islam and Ashkenazi Jews are.

Yes, and Jews and Palestinians (Canaanites?) apparently share much in common: Michael F. Hammer, et al., “Jewish and Middle Eastern Non-Jewish Populations Share a Common Pool of Y-Chromosome Biallelic Haplotypes,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, May 9, 2000.

[Kenngo1969]

The Jews, whom I have never heard being called "gentiles" by Mormons (although it is a standing joke within the Jewish community), are the heirs of an unconditional covenant, the covenant of Abraham. They constitute an ethnicity which is self-defining, and St Paul in Romans 11 and Jacob 5 make clear that they are primus inter pares at the end time.

Oooh, Latin! I'm impressed! (For the uninitiated, of whom I am one, that means, "first among equals." Google Translate is a wonderful thing! )

[Alan]

Patent, Koestlerian nonsense.

Actually, I am correct. The majority of European Jews are descended from the Khazars, who were converts to Judaism located close to the Black Sea. This is not racist, simply a fact of history. These will have mingled with "genetic" Jews for sure, but to suggest that the modern Jew is a direct descendent of Jacob with no gentile pollution is ridiculous.

Even in Biblical times many gentiles were converted to Judaism and there is a long established tradition of Gentiles being brought into the fold. Their offspring was considered 100% Jewish even though they may have had no genetic connection with Jacob.

[volgadon]

Actually, I am correct.

No, you keep spouting Koestler's debunked theory.

The majority of European Jews are descended from the Khazars, who were converts to Judaism located close to the Black Sea. This is not racist, simply a fact of history.

This is actually a subject I'm very familiar with. You might try Kevin Alan Brooke's "The Jews of Khazaria." http://www.khazaria.com/ I know Kevin, he is simply the top expert on all things Khazar. Koestler's "Thirteenth Tribe" is woefully inadequate and incorrect. Yes, many Khazars were Jews. Yes, many of their descendants are still around, but they are far from the majority, and the actual story is more complex. All in all, rather ironic for all your posturing.

These will have mingled with "genetic" Jews for sure, but to suggest that the modern Jew is a direct descendent of Jacob with no gentile pollution is ridiculous.

I've no problem accepting that there is no such things as a pure genetic pool.

Even in Biblical times many gentiles were converted to Judaism and there is a long established tradition of Gentiles being brought into the fold. Their offspring was considered 100% Jewish even though they may have had no genetic connection with Jacob.

And?

[Scott Lloyd]

Let me ask a question: How often do you encounter someone who believes in tribal identity in the House of Israel that is NOT from Ephraim?

Do you mean within the LDS Church?

It is not all that uncommon.

One day while teaching a gospel doctrine class, I asked for show of hands of who in the class were not of the tribe of Ephraim. The bishop's wife, who is Navajo by birth, raised her hand. She is of the tribe of Menasseh.

I would guess that a majority of those who are ostensibly descendants of Lehi are of the tribe of Menasseh.

[blueadept]

The term gentiles is derived from Latin, used for contextual translation, and not an original Hebrew or Greek word from the Bible. The original words Goy and Ethnos refer to "peoples" or "nations". Latin and later English translators selectively used the term gentiles when the context for the base term "peoples" or "nations" referred to non-Israelite peoples or nations in English translations of the Bible.

Following Christianization of the Roman Empire, the general implication of the word gentile became "non-Jew".

After reading the LDS responses to this, I guess I learned something new about my LDS bretheren and thought we shared this commonality.

As a catholic, I always used the above definition and have taught my students that we are all gentiles since we don't consider ourselves Jewish.

[Robert F. Smith]

Actually, I am correct. The majority of European Jews are descended from the Khazars, who were converts to Judaism located close to the Black Sea. This is not racist, simply a fact of history. These will have mingled with "genetic" Jews for sure, but to suggest that the modern Jew is a direct descendent of Jacob with no gentile pollution is ridiculous.

Even in Biblical times many gentiles were converted to Judaism and there is a long established tradition of Gentiles being brought into the fold. Their offspring was considered 100% Jewish even though they may have had no genetic connection with Jacob.

Of course there is some outside genetic input, but the gene pool was not influenced to the degree that "the majority of European Jews are descended from Khazars." DNA proves otherwise, not only on the legend of the Khazars, but also the notion that "many gentiles were converted to Judaism." Conversion there was, but this was always a small number. Moreover, assimilation with outsiders quite often resulted in lack of continuity within the Jewish community, due to persecution. Also, many Jews converted to Christianity due to reasons of social and financial mobility, e.g., the ancestors of Karl Marx and Barry Goldwater converted to Christianity for business reasons. In fact today, a great fear of the Jewish community is that assimilation is so swift that the community may effectively disappear everywhere except Israel, which is an entirely new dilemma.

If you wish, you may convert to Judaism tomorrow, but that is rare and will have little effect on the overall gene pool.

[Robert F. Smith]

Do you mean within the LDS Church?

It is not all that uncommon.

One day while teaching a gospel doctrine class, I asked for show of hands of who in the class were not of the tribe of Ephraim. The bishop's wife, who is Navajo by birth, raised her hand. She is of the tribe of Menasseh.

I would guess that a majority of those who are ostensibly descendants of Lehi are of the tribe of Menasseh.

Also, worldwide, patriarchal blessings have a very broad range of ancestries other than Ephraim and Manasseh. This became clear when a researcher was permitted a look at patriarchal blessings recorded in the LDS Church archives from such vast areas as Russia.

[volgadon]

Of course there is some outside genetic input, but the gene pool was not influenced to the degree that "the majority of European Jews are descended from Khazars." DNA proves otherwise, not only on the legend of the Khazars, but also the notion that "many gentiles were converted to Judaism." Conversion there was, but this was always a small number. Moreover, assimilation with outsiders quite often resulted in lack of continuity within the Jewish community, due to persecution. Also, many Jews converted to Christianity due to reasons of social and financial mobility, e.g., the ancestors of Karl Marx and Barry Goldwater converted to Christianity for business reasons. In fact today, a great fear of the Jewish community is that assimilation is so swift that the community may effectively disappear everywhere except Israel, which is an entirely new dilemma.

If you wish, you may convert to Judaism tomorrow, but that is rare and will have little effect on the overall gene pool.

A great number of Khazars did convert to Judaism, but that is a far cry from saying that the majority of Ashkenazi Jews are descended from Khazars. Brook's articles on the site make that abundantly clear. I warmly recommend the book, too, it rather turns around the traditional view of Jewish history in Eastern Europe and the Caucasus.

[blackstrap]

There should be a better term to refer to this group of Ashkenazi Jews. It just seems,well, untoward.

[MDalby]

Gentiles can refer to different people, depending on the context. It can refer to Non-Jews etc. Here is the definition in regard to teh Times of the Gentiles.

The Gentile nations are the so-called Christian nations—North and South America and the European nations from which we came.

(Ezra Taft Benson, Prepare Yourself for the Great Day of the Lord, New Era, May 1982, 47 )

Edited October 8, 2012 by MDalby