Question: Who Is Considered A "Gentile?"

[volgadon]

There should be a better term to refer to this group of Ashkenazi Jews. It just seems,well, untoward.

I'm not sure what term you mean, but descendants of Khazars are not a homogeneous group, and are hardly found among western Ashkenazim.

[Calm]

I think he dislikes part of the name as it brings to mind something else, "nazis"?

[volgadon]

I think he dislikes part of the name as it brings to mind something else, "nazis"?

OH. I would never have made the connection, they aren't even pronounced the same way.

[The_Lokean_Flash]

I've studied Mormonism off and on for the past few years, and the subject of Gentiles & Israelites seem to be a confused mess. From the writings I've seen, the founders of Mormonism subscribed to a primitive form of British-Israelism, believing that the Scythians or other Indo-European type groups were actually lost Israelites and they, too, were the descendants of Abraham. I'm actually reading through an article right now on the official LDS site that backs up this point of view. And I have another tab open from a newer article that claims the complete opposite, which is that Europeans are solidly gentiles. Usually when I talk to Mormons they tell me that just about everyone except Europeans are Israelites. But I'm sure if I were around in the 19th century it would be a different story.

On the subject of Ashkenazi, the latest genetic paper actually supports much of the Khazar hypothesis. Obviously, they don't descend from Khazars alone. But the Ashkenazi is closely related to various caucasian groups. Such as Armenians, Georgians, Khazars, etc... Infact the stereotypical Ashkenazi phenotype is armenoid. They do have Levantine blood of course, but so do most Europeans. Especially in the south. Your average Ashkenazi clusters closely to Sicilians and Greeks.

Source: http://current.com/13b10kc Hopkins' new study, worth reading through

[Lightbearer]

To me it is rather simple. Yet explaining it can be complex. Generally all who are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (including non-mormon Jews) are Gentiles because they have not taken upon themselves the new and everlasting covenant of the Gospel. In another sense members of the Church could be called Gentiles in the sense that the blood of Israel has been scattered in all nations and before becoming members they are gentiles. The difference is not one of culture or of strict nationality, but one of acceptance of the Gospel covenant. The gathering of Israel is basically missionary work in the last days and those who respond to the restored gospel are of the house of Israel (whether by blood or by adoption) those who do not respond or reject it are still gentiles and will remain such until they repent. At least that is how I understand the term.

So in summary, those who claim the blood of Israel yet reject the stone of Israel (Christ) and His latter-day Gospel are not of Israel.

In additon when one recieves their Patriarchal blessing one can discover the tribe to which they are either by blood or by adoption received into. This is significant if one reads the ancient blessings given to the tribes. I am of Joseph through Ephriam, I have known people who were of Judah, in fact I baptized a lady who was half chinese and half central European Jew! When she got her blessing the Patriarch thought she may be Ephriam... but when he gave her the blessing it was Judah. So one cannot go by the appearance (her mother was Jewish Czech immigrant which was unknown to the Patriarch) so the blessings of Israel are very real and even if one is strickly of gentile blood... if their heart turns to the restored Gospel then they will be adopted into the house of Israel as if they were born such.

[volgadon]

I've studied Mormonism off and on for the past few years, and the subject of Gentiles & Israelites seem to be a confused mess. From the writings I've seen, the founders of Mormonism subscribed to a primitive form of British-Israelism, believing that the Scythians or other Indo-European type groups were actually lost Israelites and they, too, were the descendants of Abraham. I'm actually reading through an article right now on the official LDS site that backs up this point of view. And I have another tab open from a newer article that claims the complete opposite, which is that Europeans are solidly gentiles. Usually when I talk to Mormons they tell me that just about everyone except Europeans are Israelites. But I'm sure if I were around in the 19th century it would be a different story.

On the subject of Ashkenazi, the latest genetic paper actually supports much of the Khazar hypothesis. Obviously, they don't descend from Khazars alone. But the Ashkenazi is closely related to various caucasian groups. Such as Armenians, Georgians, Khazars, etc... Infact the stereotypical Ashkenazi phenotype is armenoid. They do have Levantine blood of course, but so do most Europeans. Especially in the south. Your average Ashkenazi clusters closely to Sicilians and Greeks.

Source: http://current.com/13b10kc Hopkins' new study, worth reading through

A friend of mine on facebook directed my attention to this. http://www.jidaily.com/c50a3?utm_source=Jewish+Ideas+Daily+Insider&utm_campaign=8a2eee491f-Insider&utm_medium=email I would disagree on the extent of Khazar conversion (a different acquaintance of mine has written the definitive history on this), but the article is right on the Ashkenazi descinding from a small group of Jewish immigrants. Genetics here tallies with a close reading of the historical sources.

[Stargazer]

When I became a member of the Church in 1966 I seem to recall that the term Gentile was more current among the LDS than it is now. In point of fact, I can't remember the last time I heard the word used, at all, in the Church. But maybe that's just a Pacific NW thing.

[Calm]

When I became a member of the Church in 1966 I seem to recall that the term Gentile was more current among the LDS than it is now. In point of fact, I can't remember the last time I heard the word used, at all, in the Church. But maybe that's just a Pacific NW thing.

California too, at least in the north. I don't remember hearing it used after college now that I think about it (which would have been late 70s), I might have heard it a little but not common enough to recall. And my memory says it was more among the youth that I heard it (which could be simply because I was young) so perhaps when that group grew up, they lost the use of it and the younger generations haven't picked it up as much. Will have to ask my kids. Edited January 31, 2013 by calmoriah

[Alan]

Who is considered a Gentile?

It's the French.

[Alan]

On the subject of Ashkenazi, the latest genetic paper actually supports much of the Khazar hypothesis. Obviously, they don't descend from Khazars alone. But the Ashkenazi is closely related to various caucasian groups. Such as Armenians, Georgians, Khazars, etc... Infact the stereotypical Ashkenazi phenotype is armenoid. They do have Levantine blood of course, but so do most Europeans. Especially in the south. Your average Ashkenazi clusters closely to Sicilians and Greeks.

Source: http://current.com/13b10kc Hopkins' new study, worth reading through

Thank you. I knew I was right on this but others practically called me a racist.

This seems to be the way of things these days - one can't say anything which is contrary to the Jewish view of themselves or one is a racist.

[volgadon]

Thank you. I knew I was right on this but others practically called me a racist.

This seems to be the way of things these days - one can't say anything which is contrary to the Jewish view of themselves or one is a racist.

Do look at the link in post #31. The Koestlerian Khazar theory is bunk.

[Saints Alive]

I propose another definition. Descendants of Abraham to whom God said "don't eat that". Of course that would necessarily include Muslims too.

that would exclude LDS since God only told us "don't drink that, or smoke those"

[Alan]

Do look at the link in post #31. The Koestlerian Khazar theory is bunk.

No it isn't.

[rongo]

The Book of Mormon actually creates a new and specific usage of "Gentile." In this usage, "Gentile" refers to Israelite descendants of northern European nations. They are both Israelites and "Gentiles," because they have Israelite blood, but belong to Gentile nations (via the ten tribes intermixing with indigenous non-Israelite tribes of the north).

Hence, the gathering of Israel commencing with the gathering of Ephraim and Mannaseh through the northern European nations and the founding of the United States (a British colony) is to be done by the "Gentiles," many of whom are Israelites but belong politically to Gentile nations.

[volgadon]

No it isn't.

Are you saying this before you've read the multiple links I've posted on Khazars and Jewish geneology?

[brightpath]

To clear up this confusion refer to the title page of the BofM. The Lamanites are from the tribe of Joseph. The Jews are from the tribe of Judah. The rest of the world are Gentiles. Now converted Gentiles are adopted into the House of Israel and are not assigned to a specific tribe. The 10 tribes are lost and are hidden by God and are to come forth from the north after the New Jerusalem is built. They will be led by their own prophets and have their own scriptures to be shared with the rest of Israel.

[volgadon]

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/archeological-dig-in-cologne-unearths-ancient-jewish-history-and-exposes-layers-of-prejudice.premium-1.513703

Yet another nail in the coffin of the Khazar theory. Solid archaeological evidence of a Jewish community in 1st century Cologne.

[Robert F. Smith]

To me it is rather simple.

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So in summary, those who claim the blood of Israel yet reject the stone of Israel (Christ) and His latter-day Gospel are not of Israel.

----------------------------

Not according to Paul in Romans 11. The title page of the Book of Mormon explicitly recognizes the distinction between Jew and Gentile. Even the D&C recognizes the authentic descent of Israelites. What will eventually take place is another matter, and the Messiah Himself will determine such matters. However, when Orson Hyde knelt on the Mt of Olives and dedicated Palestine for the gathering of Israel in 1841 (on orders of Joseph Smith) https://www.lds.org/...y-land?lang=eng, he was not engaging in meaningless ritual. And when the State of Israel was founded in 1948, that was also not merely an ordinary artifact of secular history. An integral part of the chosen people of God have come home, and they are there to stay.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

To clear up this confusion refer to the title page of the BofM. The Lamanites are from the tribe of Joseph. The Jews are from the tribe of Judah. The rest of the world are Gentiles. Now converted Gentiles are adopted into the House of Israel and are not assigned to a specific tribe. The 10 tribes are lost and are hidden by God and are to come forth from the north after the New Jerusalem is built. They will be led by their own prophets and have their own scriptures to be shared with the rest of Israel.

Wrong on several counts:

The BofM title page doesn't mention Joseph, which is not a tribe. The Lamanites are from the tribe of Manasseh. Converted Gentiles are in fact provided with their Israelite descent by specific tribe in their patriarchal blessings. When and how the lost tribes of Israel are to be recovered is yet a mystery. your guess is as good as anyone's.

[cdowis]

To me it is rather simple. Yet explaining it can be complex. Generally all who are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (including non-mormon Jews) are Gentiles because they have not taken upon themselves the new and everlasting covenant of the Gospel.

While visiting the USA, the prime minister of Israel joked that Utah is the only place where he is considered a Gentile.

[Robert F. Smith]

While visiting the USA, the prime minister of Israel joked that Utah is the only place where he is considered a Gentile.

And, of course, he was wrong.

[cdowis]

And, of course, he was wrong.

OK, I give up. Where else?

[Robert F. Smith]

OK, I give up. Where else?

There is a saying in Hebrew applied to secular Jews, goy gamur "a complete gentile, a complete heathen." So, he could very well be considered a gentile in his own country of Israel.

However, what I meant originally was that Mormons do not consider Jews as gentiles. It is a common joke and has been used for longer than Beebee has been alive, but it is false.

[volgadon]

There is a saying in Hebrew applied to secular Jews, goy gamur "a complete gentile, a complete heathen." So, he could very well be considered a gentile in his own country of Israel.

However, what I meant originally was that Mormons do not consider Jews as gentiles. It is a common joke and has been used for longer than Beebee has been alive, but it is false.

There is the old joke about a new immigrant to New York who sees someone on a park bench on the Sabbath smoking a cigar and reading a Yiddish newspaper.

"What a country! Here even the goyim know Yiddish!"

[brightpath]

Robert F Smith, you are in fact wrong. The BofM is referred to as the stick of Joseph. The stick of Judah is the Bible. Lehi is the seed if Joseph. Since the Nephites were eliminated all that is left is the Lamanites(Native Americans). So they are in fact the seed of Joseph that is left thru Manasseh. Moroni addresses all people in the title page Lamanites(Joseph), Jews(Judah), and the Gentiles(the rest of the world). Read 3 Nephi 21 and DC 132 and the mystery of the list tribes will be unfolded unto you. The 10 tribes will come from the north after the New Jerusalem is built. To be clear about the converted Gentiles they are adopted into Israel, they are not the literal seed.