Question: Who Is Considered A "Gentile?"

[inquiringmind]

This is an interesting thread.

Christ spoke of Jerusalem being trodden down by the gentiles until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled, and I was recently surprised by a passage in D&C that said "the times of the gentiles will end in this generation."

If there's any truth to British Israelism, it could be argued that the times of the gentiles ended with the end of the Ottoman empire (at the close of WWI.)

I know members of the LDS Church do extensive historical and genealogical investigations, and I was just wondering if anyone knows (or could find out) if anyone alive in the 1820's was still living 1917 (when British general Allenby took control of Jerusalem from the Turks)?

Edited May 1, 2013 by inquiringmind

[Stone holm]

I have always understood the term "gentile" to mean different things depending on the context. When the B of M talks about the Europeans invading the American continent and refers to them as gentile it is meaning non-Jewish nations. When we are talking to outsiders we normally attach the normal understanding, namely everyone not currently Jewish (in other words primarily Judah and Benjamin). When we are talking about us and our internal doctrine we mean non-Mormons. Brigham Young said that it was a relative rarity that a true gentile would join the Church. What he meant by that was that the vast majority of those coming into the Church in the Latter-Days would be of the tribe of Ephraim or Manasseh (not adopted, but actually having the bloodline) and that since they were tribes of Israel they were not gentiles. The best approach is to just avoid using the term because it just confuses and sometimes offends people. Its like the Amish referring to all of the non-Amish as English.

[inquiringmind]

I understand that Patriarchal blessings usually identify Americans of British descent as belonging to the tribe of Eprhraim, and I think I heard somewhere that French converts are usually identified as belonging to the tribe of Reuben.

Is that true?

[inquiringmind]

What about this?

While identifying the Lamanites as some of the children of Abraham, President Spencer W. Kimball wrote:

“The Lamanite is a chosen child of God, but he is not the only chosen one. There are many other good people including the Anglos, the French, the German, and the English, who are also of Ephraim and Manasseh. They, with the Lamanites, are also chosen people, and they are a remnant of Jacob. The Lamanite is not wholly and exclusively the remnant of Jacob which the Book of Mormon talks about. We are all of Israel! We are of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and Joseph through Ephraim and Manasseh. We are all of us remnants of Jacob.” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982, pp. 600–601.)

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1991/01/of-the-house-of-israel?lang=eng

Edited May 2, 2013 by inquiringmind

[Robert F. Smith]

What about this?

http://www.lds.org/e...israel?lang=eng

Thank you for that, Inquirer,

However. at lot of water has flowed under the bridge since then. For example, patriarchs who have been traveling in Russia and Asia for the purpose of giving partriarchal blessings have found themselves declaring many of the Saints in those areas as members of very diverse tribes of Israel (other than Ephraim). This has not been experienced before, and I have no explanation for it.

[Robert F. Smith]

This is an interesting thread.

Christ spoke of Jerusalem being trodden down by the gentiles until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled, and I was recently surprised by a passage in D&C that said "the times of the gentiles will end in this generation."

What is the meaning of "generation"?

If there's any truth to British Israelism, it could be argued that the times of the gentiles ended with the end of the Ottoman empire (at the close of WWI.)

I know members of the LDS Church do extensive historical and genealogical investigations, and I was just wondering if anyone knows (or could find out) if anyone alive in the 1820's was still living 1917 (when British general Allenby took control of Jerusalem from the Turks)?

There are always some centenarians around, so the answer is very likely "yes."

[Robert F. Smith]

brightpath, on 13 February 2013 - 02:33 AM, said:

To clear up this confusion refer to the title page of the BofM. The Lamanites are from the tribe of Joseph. The Jews are from the tribe of Judah. The rest of the world are Gentiles. Now converted Gentiles are adopted into the House of Israel and are not assigned to a specific tribe. The 10 tribes are lost and are hidden by God and are to come forth from the north after the New Jerusalem is built. They will be led by their own prophets and have their own scriptures to be shared with the rest of Israel.

I replied correctly to your misinformation:

Wrong on several counts:

The BofM title page doesn't mention Joseph, which is not a tribe. The Lamanites are from the tribe of Manasseh. Converted Gentiles are in fact provided with their Israelite descent by specific tribe in their patriarchal blessings. When and how the lost tribes of Israel are to be recovered is yet a mystery. your guess is as good as anyone's.

Robert F Smith, you are in fact wrong. The BofM is referred to as the stick of Joseph. The stick of Judah is the Bible. Lehi is the seed if Joseph. Since the Nephites were eliminated all that is left is the Lamanites(Native Americans). So they are in fact the seed of Joseph that is left thru Manasseh. Moroni addresses all people in the title page Lamanites(Joseph), Jews(Judah), and the Gentiles(the rest of the world). Read 3 Nephi 21 and DC 132 and the mystery of the list tribes will be unfolded unto you. The 10 tribes will come from the north after the New Jerusalem is built. To be clear about the converted Gentiles they are adopted into Israel, they are not the literal seed.

There is no tribe of Joseph, and the BofM Title page does not refer to such a non-existent tribe.

Look at map #3 in the 1979 LDS edition of the KJV Bible. It shows the geography of the 12 tribes. No mention of Joseph.

Look at the Macmillan Bible Atlas. Same result through the many maps dealing with the Israelite tribes.

Joseph was indeed a son of Jacob-Israel, but he did not form a tribe. His two sons formed two tribes, Ephraim & Manasseh.

What is sad, Brightpath, is your unwillingness to fess up and admit your errors. Instead you have gone off on another tangent in order to distract us once again.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[Stone holm]

I understand that Patriarchal blessings usually identify Americans of British descent as belonging to the tribe of Eprhraim, and I think I heard somewhere that French converts are usually identified as belonging to the tribe of Reuben.

Is that true?

I have never heard that, it might be true -- but I doubt it. The prophecy was that the major push in the latter-days would come from Ephraim and Mannasseh -- the two tribes of Joseph. As I understand the teachings which should not be considered doctrine, as the 10 tribes travelled to wherever they are various elements of the Ephraim and Manasseh broke off or apostasied from the main migration and the seed of these who fell away are the ones who are primarily building the Kingdom in the Latter-Days. You do hear occasionally of people in other tribes being declared in Patriarchal blessings, but that is uncommon. The Native Americans are frequently of the tribe of Manasseh.

[Robert F. Smith]

You do hear occasionally of people in other tribes being declared in Patriarchal blessings, but that is uncommon.

Actually it is quite common in Asia and Russia.

[brightpath]

brightpath, on 13 February 2013 - 02:33 AM, said:

To clear up this confusion refer to the title page of the BofM. The Lamanites are from the tribe of Joseph. The Jews are from the tribe of Judah. The rest of the world are Gentiles. Now converted Gentiles are adopted into the House of Israel and are not assigned to a specific tribe. The 10 tribes are lost and are hidden by God and are to come forth from the north after the New Jerusalem is built. They will be led by their own prophets and have their own scriptures to be shared with the rest of Israel.

I replied correctly to your misinformation:

There is no tribe of Joseph, and the BofM Title page does not refer to such a non-existent tribe.

Look at map #3 in the 1979 LDS edition of the KJV Bible. It shows the geography of the 12 tribes. No mention of Joseph.

Look at the Macmillan Bible Atlas. Same result through the many maps dealing with the Israelite tribes.

Joseph was indeed a son of Jacob-Israel, but he did not form a tribe. His two sons formed two tribes, Ephraim & Manasseh.

What is sad, Brightpath, is your unwillingness to fess up and admit your errors. Instead you have gone off on another tangent in order to distract us once again.

Then why is the BofM referred to as the stick of Joseph? Lehi was from Manasseh and Ishmael was from Ephraim. Together that makes Joseph! The tribe of Joseph is alive and well within the blood of the Lamanites living on this great land of theirs, America.

[Robert F. Smith]

Then why is the BofM referred to as the stick of Joseph? Lehi was from Manasseh and Ishmael was from Ephraim. Together that makes Joseph! The tribe of Joseph is alive and well within the blood of the Lamanites living on this great land of theirs, America.

It is true that there is an unsubstantiated claim that Ishmael was a member of the Tribe of Ephraim,* and it may well be true. It's just that it is non-canonical, and cannot be verified. We also know that Mulek was a prince of Judah, but that does not make the Book of Mormon a Jewish record?

As to the "Stick of Joseph" in Ezekiel 37, you will note that it is part of two titles written on staffs or writing tablets: (1) "For Judah and for the children of Israel his companions," and (2) "For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions." Ezekiel prophesies that they will be joined together in one stick, as a symbol of the coming gathering of the Israelite tribes as one nation in the land of Israel with a Davidic king to rule over them with a restored temple/tabernacle. This does not read as if we are considering a small remnant of Manasseh in the Americas, but rather the descendants of the ancient lost tribes of Israel coming home to be with their brothers of the tribe of Judah. This is heavy end-time stuff, Brightpath. What do you make of it?

* According to Erastus Snow, Journal of Discourses, 2:184-185.

[grhammjr]

I am investigator and the history of the word in the LDS community was unknown to me, still it managed to come up in conversation with a member. I basically asked do you consider yourself Jewish, part of the response was he was not Gentile like me. Thanks for the additional explanations.

http://lowersciotowaywardsaints.blogspot.com/

[brightpath]

It is true that there is an unsubstantiated claim that Ishmael was a member of the Tribe of Ephraim,* and it may well be true. It's just that it is non-canonical, and cannot be verified. We also know that Mulek was a prince of Judah, but that does not make the Book of Mormon a Jewish record?

As to the "Stick of Joseph" in Ezekiel 37, you will note that it is part of two titles written on staffs or writing tablets: (1) "For Judah and for the children of Israel his companions," and (2) "For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions." Ezekiel prophesies that they will be joined together in one stick, as a symbol of the coming gathering of the Israelite tribes as one nation in the land of Israel with a Davidic king to rule over them with a restored temple/tabernacle. This does not read as if we are considering a small remnant of Manasseh in the Americas, but rather the descendants of the ancient lost tribes of Israel coming home to be with their brothers of the tribe of Judah. This is heavy end-time stuff, Brightpath. What do you make of it?

* According to Erastus Snow, Journal of Discourses, 2:184-185.

Mulek was a son of Zedekiah and from the tribe of Judah.We can say that the BorM is an Israelite record through Joseph. When the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled and the New Jerusalem is built the Lamanites will have the record of the lost 10 tribes and the the lost 10 tribes will have the record of the Jews(Bible) and Lamanites(BofM).