This Is How You Leave The Church -- Walter Kirn And Mormonism

[Nevo]

No, for once I agree with Craig Paxton. Anybody care to actually comments on Kirn's essay--other than the two who briefly did? You can find a link to it at the Opening Post, or op.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Kirn's piece is a moving, heartfelt tribute to the faith of his youth—one that resonates, I expect, with a good many current and former Latter-day Saints. It's a disarming read for a believer. One expects to find former adherents reflecting on their former faith with a kind of bemused detachment and smug self-satisfaction at having transcended all of the silliness, yet Kirn's writing has an appealing humility to it:

"What finally separated me from the Church was a loss of nerve, not a crisis of belief. My time in the ward had shown me at close range that God doesn’t work in mysterious ways at all, but by enlisting assistants on the ground. I saw sick people healed through the laying on of hands, not suddenly and magically, but gradually, from the comfort that comes of feeling the group’s concern. I’d heard inspired messages spoken in common English, sometimes from my own excited lips. This proximity to the sacred scared me off. Too much responsibility, it felt like. Too much pressure to side with the miraculous, which places demands on a busy, modern person. You sit down on a plane beside a gloomy lawyer who’s cursing himself under his breath, and instead of ignoring him and reading a book, you have to ask his name and offer solace.

My stated excuse for sneaking away from Mormonism was skepticism about its doctrines, but I’d learned that most Mormons don’t grasp all the teachings of Joseph Smith—nor do they credit all the ones they do grasp....The “sacred underwear”? It was underwear. Everyone wears it, so why not make it sacred? Why not make everything sacred? It is, in some ways. And most sacred of all are people, not wondrous stories, whose job is to help people feel their sacredness. Sometimes the stories don’t work, or they stop working. Forget about them; find others. Revise. Refocus. A church is the people in it, and their errors. The errors they make while striving to get things right."

Kirn calls Mormonism "the religion of second chances, the faith that makes housecalls." That's the ideal isn't it. Reading Kirn's essay made me want to be more like the Mormons he describes, ministering angels who "smile with their whole faces" and are always ready to offer a welcoming hand.

[Storm Rider]

If I hadn't read the JoD and the hidden teachings of BY and JS then my answer would be yes. So needless to say my final answer is no, I don't care to be a Goddess over my own planet, like I've said before on another thread, I'm fine with being an angel and helping those on earth. Don't laugh.

So often I wish God could have nudged some of the prophets, apostles, and leaders and said, "It is best to just stop talking when you do not have the complete picture." I absolutely detest this non-doctrinal thought process of having your own planet. It is just an incomplete statement and is lacking so much foundation as to be senseless.

For me I choose to limit my understanding to what the scriptures say, we will be joint-heirs with Christ. We will be one with the Godhead. What does that mean? We will be in union with them. What will we do? We don't know.

Sometimes it is just better to shut our mouths, state we don't know, and move on. The real thing is to not worry about what we might be doing in the eternities and be trying to live a life of discipleship today with an eye single to the glory of God. The rest will take care of itself.

[CASteinman]

So often I wish God could have nudged some of the prophets, apostles, and leaders and said, "It is best to just stop talking when you do not have the complete picture."

But then, we would not have any of the Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C or the Pearl of Great Price.

I absolutely detest this non-doctrinal thought process of having your own planet. It is just an incomplete statement and is lacking so much foundation as to be senseless.

Technically it is doctrinal. By Definition. Its just not Doctrine that has ever been taught by the LDS Church or General Authorities.

For me I choose to limit my understanding to what the scriptures say

But then you go on to say you don't understand what they mean. By your statement above you should not even open your mouth about such things.

Should you have posted this?

Or is it OK because you are not a prophet to thus criticize them (or God) when God has revealed to them some but not all?

[Storm Rider]

But then, we would not have any of the Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C or the Pearl of Great Price.

Technically it is doctrinal. By Definition. Its just not Doctrine that has ever been taught by the LDS Church or General Authorities.

But then you go on to say you don't understand what they mean. By your statement above you should not even open your mouth about such things.

Should you have posted this?

Or is it OK because you are not a prophet to thus criticize them (or God) when God has revealed to them some but not all?

You don't seem to have a very cogent response.

1) No, by definition it is not doctrinal. It is pure supposition on the part of some leaders. Please see the definition of "supposition" and "doctrine" to get the gist.

2) No, please reread my post. The only thing I said I did not understand was, "What will we do? We don't know" The scriptures do not provide any clear, complete explanation of what we will do in the Celestial Kingdom. I may have missed it; if so, feel free to point it out.

3) Should I have posted my comment? Based on reality, my comments were accurate and germane. Based upon your thinking, which is obviously erroneous, who knows.

4) Is it acceptable to not appreciate suppositions of leaders? I hope to shout. When it becomes doctrine of the LDS Church, then you have a leg to stand on. Until then, supposition remains opinion and everyone has one; none if valued more than anyone else's.

5) When it is revelation, the Church has demonstrated its ability to cherish, value, hold sacred these revelations and share them with the Church. When it is not revelation, it is treated as NOT REVELATION. That two legged stool you have is now on its side. Cheers,

[CASteinman]

You don't seem to have a very cogent response.

That is false. I do seem to have very cogent responses.

1) No, by definition it is not doctrinal.

That is false. By definition is it doctrinal. Here is the definition of doctrinal:

adjective : of, pertaining to, or concerned with doctrine:

It is pure supposition on the part of some leaders

That is false. CFR that any leader ever taught this.

2) No, please reread my post. The only thing I said I did not understand was, "What will we do? We don't know" The scriptures do not provide any clear, complete explanation of what we will do in the Celestial Kingdom. I may have missed it; if so, feel free to point it out.

Ahhh... so you do understand "The complete picture" of exaltation and the celestial kingdom, eh? The complete picture? Really? Complete? Nothing left to speculation, guess or wondering?

3) Should I have posted my comment? Based on reality, my comments were accurate and germane. Based upon your thinking, which is obviously erroneous, who knows.

If my thinking were so obviously erroneous, you should have been able to show it with this many words. But instead you have focused on doubling down on your own errors rather than pointing out any of mine.

4) Is it acceptable to not appreciate suppositions of leaders?

Again.. CFR that any leader ever taught that we would have our "own planet". I think its YOU who is supposing things.

5) When it is revelation, the Church has demonstrated its ability to cherish, value, hold sacred these revelations and share them with the Church. When it is not revelation, it is treated as NOT REVELATION. That two legged stool you have is now on its side. Cheers,

What two legged stool are you referring to? You make no sense. There is no stool here.. not two legged, not any number of legs. I am not on a stool but a chair and in any case, it has nothing to do with my post.

[Ahab]

Ahab,

Without (at least at this point) getting in to the nuances of your take on my post, let me clarify by the following:

From the time I was a young child, I didn't take life and existence at all for granted. In other words, I knew that even the mere fact that anything at all existed was the greatest miracle of all miracles. So as a result of this awareness, I was always trying to make some logical sense of it all. I knew intuitively there had to be some ultimate answer as to why the universe exists in all its glory, immensity, complexity and mystery (universe in this instance means all things that exist in any way, everywhere throughout all existence).

In fact, this fervent, lifelong desire to know the ultimate meaning of life and why things exist led me on quest -- starting in my teens -- to discover if there was a Supreme Being, and if he had revealed his true religion (in this case, 'religion' means a revealed way to understand and live life so as to maximize happiness). Yes, it's true, I was one of those "rare birds" who actively studied religions in order to find, if possible, the true religion.

All the religions I studied supplied answers that left me dissatisfied and, ultimately, disillusionesd. Disillusioned that is, until the LDS missionaries knocked a my home's front door in June of 1970 (I was almost 21 at the time). From the first moment I heard the teachings, doctrines and commandments of the Restored Gospel I was being intellectually persuaded by the logic, fairness and beauty of it all. It was very exciting because somehow it seemed I already knew, deep within, that what the elders were teaching me was true, but somehow I had mysteriously forgotten till they reminded me. With this last point, I acknowledge the Spirit was witnessing to me throughout the discussions and conversations with the elders. In my case, all that was needed to "seal the deal" was a powerful, unmistakable revelation from God to cap off my learning experience, to me know if my "instincts" were correct.

After this period of diligent study, reflection and prayer the Lord me know, in no uncertain terms, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is his true church. Like Alma the younger, after this revelatory experience I have never doubted. And like the tree of life, my testimony continues to grow, bloom and produce delightful fruit, in greater and greater abundance.

I'm glad to know you've received a testimony from God, bro. My life followed a similar vein in many particulars.

Here's a thought: Why do you suppose so many people wonder if there was and still is a Supreme Being? I mean, doesn't it just make sense that there is and has to be? Particularly so called "scientists". Why do some of those people have so much trouble with the idea, do you think? Of course there is and has to be. It's just plain logic. Among all there are there is and has to be one being, or one kind of being, which is more supreme than all other beings in existence.

Seems like that much intelligence should be flowing through their minds, at least a little bit. Nobody should have trouble with that one, and yet some people do, and still do, even after you tell them how logical it all is. It's almost as if there's some kind of cloud keeping them from seeing what is plainly obvious in all of reality.

[Ahab]

If I hadn't read the JoD and the hidden teachings of BY and JS then my answer would be yes. So needless to say my final answer is no, I don't care to be a Goddess over my own planet, like I've said before on another thread, I'm fine with being an angel and helping those on earth. Don't laugh.

You can help me. I won't laugh.

[Ahab]

If I hadn't read the JoD and the hidden teachings of BY and JS then my answer would be yes. So needless to say my final answer is no, I don't care to be a Goddess over my own planet, like I've said before on another thread, I'm fine with being an angel and helping those on earth. Don't laugh.

Here's my attempt to help you a little bit now:

Do you realize the purpose of the atonement of Jesus Christ is to restore all of us back to the state of Adam and Eve before they fell in the garden of Eden, except that we'll have the addition of a (greater???) knowledge of good and evil? That's what the atonement is all about, primarily. That's what Jesus was restored to after his resurrection after he overcame the effects of the "fall".

So now consider this: What do we know of Adam and Eve? What was their purpose in life? What did God command them to do as male and female? Do you really have a problem with having children in eternity, or is it just that you don't like being referred to as a "Goddess"?

The part about having "my own" planet kinda bothers me too. What is it that would make it "my own"? Wouldn't it still be God's planet? Isn't all there is God's? I'd rather call it "our" planet rather than making it seem as if it will be mine and nobody elses.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Ahab

[Grundelwalken]

Some of what Kirn shared resonated with experiences in my youth. The girls where I lived were the cutest in the whole area and I was often drawn to meetings/activities because they were there. There were "faith crises" at different stages that caused me to wonder if I was following the right path but I was often rescued by those same cute girls and their wonderful smiles. Where we differ is that I had a family that was faithful to the teachings of the gospel and made sure to help me stay engaged in the blessings therein.

By the time I left home to search out my own life I was pretty secure but there were still times when the friendships of others held me close as I struggled. Though they were different in name, the girls in my new experience were just as influential in keeping me close as the ones from my youth. Eventually, unlike Kirn, I was bedazzled by one and found what eternal joy could be with a real mate. My hope is that one day folks like Mr. Kirn will remember some of the uplifting experiences they have had and give the gospel one more try. MW

[why me]

. My allegience is to Him not a church, sorry if I've let you down.

Maybe Paul would disagree with you since he wrote letters to the church in various locations encouraging unity and community.

[why me]

If I hadn't read the JoD and the hidden teachings of BY and JS then my answer would be yes. So needless to say my final answer is no, I don't care to be a Goddess over my own planet, like I've said before on another thread, I'm fine with being an angel and helping those on earth. Don't laugh.

What hidden teachings of BY and JS? The journal of discourses have been around a long time and many members had the book in their libraries. And they were for purchase in the desseret book shop. I don't know about goddesses and gods. But certainly if that is the case, you may just be a little disappointed when in the eternities you are an angel knowing that you could have been something more.

[Tacenda]

Here's my attempt to help you a little bit now:

Do you realize the purpose of the atonement of Jesus Christ is to restore all of us back to the state of Adam and Eve before they fell in the garden of Eden, except that we'll have the addition of a (greater???) knowledge of good and evil? That's what the atonement is all about, primarily. That's what Jesus was restored to after his resurrection after he overcame the effects of the "fall".

So now consider this: What do we know of Adam and Eve? What was their purpose in life? What did God command them to do as male and female? Do you really have a problem with having children in eternity, or is it just that you don't like being referred to as a "Goddess"?

The part about having "my own" planet kinda bothers me too. What is it that would make it "my own"? Wouldn't it still be God's planet? Isn't all there is God's? I'd rather call it "our" planet rather than making it seem as if it will be mine and nobody elses.

It's probably ridiculous to think that for all the many years of attending the temple and all the years in RS and GD, I never got the memo that I would be a goddess over a planet with my husband who has been commanded to live polygamy in the hereafter.

Yes, that's how I read it in those sources, don't CFR people, or I will and I will put you in your places. I grew up in a family that didn't read scriptures, attempted to have family night. I never saw my dad give a priesthood blessing, he was a coffee drinker and sealed in the temple to my mom who was stalwart. So we never discussed things like being gods and goddesses.

It doesn't seem at all like the majority of Christian faiths out there, that believe they'll be with their loved ones and God in heaven. You probably want to ask me why I don't go and join with them? I haven't been able to make that leap and it's a leap if you knew my family, but I'm mormon to the bone. I guess I could try these other faiths but my family, extended family etc. are all LDS except for a few that are inactive. Even they would look at me like I was nuts if I left the church.

Let me ask you---who is going to birth the billions of spirit children in that realm? Me alone? I'm very serious here, no one has been able to answer. Isn't this the one componet of our faith that is the fullness of the gospel, really? But in those other faiths, the gospel means good news and the gift of salvation from Christ.

But I appreciate the thoughts on Adam and Eve and other thoughts you presented, thank you.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

Maybe Paul would disagree with you since he wrote letters to the church in various locations encouraging unity and community.

I said allegience to God not a church but know with a surety that He would like everyone to commune together, that is how we can love our fellow man. Churches provide that and when we worship in word and song that also pleases Him.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Tacenda

[Ahab]

It's probably ridiculous to think that for all the many years of attending the temple and all the years in RS and GD, I never got the memo that I would be a goddess over a planet with my husband who has been commanded to live polygamy in the hereafter.

It doesn't come as a memo, it comes as a thought in your head which may or may not have been influenced by something you read in a book. Not everyone will live polygamy, though. Just those who have been sealed to more than one wife and continued faithful in their covenants with God.

Yes, that's how I read it in those sources, don't CFR people, or I will and I will put you in your places.

It's there, I know. Now you just need to realize that it's true within the proper context.

I grew up in a family that didn't read scriptures, attempted to have family night. I never saw my dad give a priesthood blessing, he was a coffee drinker and sealed in the temple to my mom who was stalwart. So we never discussed things like being gods and goddesses.

Are you married yet? You could discuss things like this with your husband.

It doesn't seem at all like the majority of Christian faiths out there, that believe they'll be with their loved ones and God in heaven.

It isn't. They don't believe it's possible for their marriage to continue in eternity just like they have it right now, if not better. For some reason they seem to think their marriage has to end at some point, even if they can still see each other. How weird would that be.

You probably want to ask me why I don't go and join with them? I haven't been able to make that leap and it's a leap if you knew my family, but I'm mormon to the bone. I guess I could try these other faiths but my family, extended family etc. are all LDS except for a few that are inactive. Even they would look at me like I was nuts if I left the church.

Heh, at least they have that much sense.

Let me ask you---who is going to birth the billions of spirit children in that realm?

Spirit babies come from their Mommies and Daddies, although the Mommies are usually the ones who get credit for giving birth to them.

Me alone?

Heh, well, you may eventually give birth to billions of spirit children throughout the course of eternity, but not all of the children out there will be yours, if that's what you're asking.

I'm very serious here, no one has been able to answer.

I don't know why that would be. It's not a very difficult question to answer. You may hear from some people who don't give or agree with the right answer, though.

Isn't this the one componet of our faith that is the fullness of the gospel, really?

Part of the fulness, yes, but not all of it. Life is about a lot more than just giving birth to babies.

But in those other faiths, the gospel means good news and the salvation from Christ.

Okay, but what do they think that means? Do you think they realize it's all about being restored to the state of Adam and Eve before they fell? If not, why not. If you do think they do, what else do you think there is to all of it?

But I appreciate the thoughts on Adam and Eve and other thoughts you presented, thank you.

You're very welcome.

[Tacenda]

It doesn't come as a memo, it comes as a thought in your head which may or may not have been influenced by something you read in a book. Not everyone will live polygamy, though. Just those who have been sealed to more than one wife and continued faithful in their covenants with God.

It's there, I know. Now you just need to realize that it's true within the proper context.

Are you married yet? You could discuss things like this with your husband.

It isn't. They don't believe it's possible for their marriage to continue in eternity just like they have it right now, if not better. For some reason they seem to think their marriage has to end at some point, even if they can still see each other. How weird would that be.

Heh, at least they have that much sense.

Spirit babies come from their Mommies and Daddies, although the Mommies are usually the ones who get credit for giving birth to them.

Heh, well, you may eventually give birth to billions of spirit children throughout the course of eternity, but not all of the children out there will be yours, if that's what you're asking.

I don't know why that would be. It's not a very difficult question to answer. You may hear from some people who don't give or agree with the right answer, though.

Part of the fulness, yes, but not all of it. Life is about a lot more than just giving birth to babies.

Okay, but what do they think that means? Do you think they realize it's all about being restored to the state of Adam and Eve before they fell? If not, why not. If you do think they do, what else do you think there is to all of it?

You're very welcome.

I believe it's all a mystery. As far as heaven it will be a different realm. From what I've been told, we will all be around the same age, say in our 30's. So right there it isn't at all like it is here with our children and grandchildren that are younger. So we may know our husband and wives but we may have different lifestyles with them than on earth. It says in the bible there is no marriage in heaven.

So you say that Adam and Eve are gods and goddesses? So Adam is God? Is that the Adam/God theory that BY spoke about? Or did Satan say their eyes will be open "like" gods and goddesses? I heard a few times that the nonlds christians believe Adam and Eve sinned and it wasn't a wink, wink sin it was a serious sin, so bad that a Savior was sent down to save them for it. They really believe that God wanted them to stay in the garden and they also believe that Adam and Eve could procreate in that garden.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Tacenda