This Is How You Leave The Church -- Walter Kirn And Mormonism

[gtaggart]

The title of this thread is a bit ambiguous, so let me be clear: author Walter Kirn wrote a piece in TNR, titled "Confessions of an Ex-Mormon," that brought tears to my eyes at the end. Why can't all who leave the church treat it as kindly as he does? Why can't they, like he, see the something he'd missed? Maybe as important, why do we--those who remain active, committed Saints--often fail to see it as well?

[Tacenda]

I read this article awhile back. It was a very touching article and brought a tear to my eyes as well.

I think there are many exmormons as well as maybe even antimormons that might also have a memory or two like this gentlemen.

I often think that my testimony is in a just God and the actions of the good LDS people, they are the reason I stay.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Tacenda

[CASteinman]

I often think that my testimony is in a just God and the actions of the good LDS people, they are the reason I stay.

I have no doubt that if you would immerse yourself in documents and negative commentary against those two things as much as you have about the other elements of the Gospel, you would doubt those things too.

It is hard to detect from your posts that you have any feeling of personal power, capability or responsibility for your testimony. Its like you drift on the easiest tide and flow of water.... and even that is a struggle.

I earnestly encourage you to believe! Have Faith! Here is something that I think is valid: God has created this world for the "Faith"ful. By "Faith" in this context, I do not mean "Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ" or even "Faith in God" but just Faith... the principle of action in man.

However that exact same type of Faith is the root of Faith the Lord Jesus Christ. And thus... all things work together for the good of them that believe!

You can do it!

Take this to Social Hall if you want to stay in the thread.

[Tacenda]

I have no doubt that if you would immerse yourself in documents and negative commentary against those two things as much as you have about the other elements of the Gospel, you would doubt those things too.

It is hard to detect from your posts that you have any feeling of personal power, capability or responsibility for your testimony. Its like you drift on the easiest tide and flow of water.... and even that is a struggle.

I earnestly encourage you to believe! Have Faith! Here is something that I think is valid: God has created this world for the "Faith"ful. By "Faith" in this context, I do not mean "Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ" or even "Faith in God" but just Faith... the principle of action in man.

However that exact same type of Faith is the root of Faith the Lord Jesus Christ. And thus... all things work together for the good of them that believe!

You can do it!

I think you can have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in all man made religions. My allegience is to Him not a church, sorry if I've let you down.

[CASteinman]

I think you can have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in all man made religions. My allegience is to Him not a church, sorry if I've let you down.

You have not let me down. But even if you had, it would be irrelevant.

However you cannot legitimately claim allegiance to Jesus and then reject His Church.

[Buzzard]

Brother Kirn needs a set of good home teachers. Based on this article, I think there is more than a little hope for him still, since I see no indication that he actually left the church, he's just gone temporarily inactive.

[pmccombs1]

You have not let me down. But even if you had, it would be irrelevant.

However you cannot legitimately claim allegiance to Jesus and then reject His Church.

CASteinman, I really like the tone of your encouragement. I think this is constructive.

I don't know if Tacenda and I are in the same place or not, but we seem to be in a class of doubters who can't leave the Church. We don't want to. When I am engaged in it, there is nothing better. Getting into the work is where it's at, and that makes all the difference. When I step back, though, and retreat into the inner life of reflection where my feelings, thoughts, and experiences combine, then I find the whole thing very implausible. It all falls to pieces, and I can get cynical and critical.

So, I understand Tacenda's "Jesus, but not Church" mentality. It's not a difficult stretch to accept Jesus, but what about "His" church? Does He have one? How can we know it?

Obviously we have formulas for that. We talk about desire; about cultivating a place for that faith to grow. Then we talk about the witness of the Spirit. Many people here have invested a lot in various other kinds of evidences as well, but the Spirit is what we fall back on.

What about my acquaintances of other faiths? I spent some time talking to Catholics and Orthodox Christians about their faith and found that many of them have spiritual witnesses. They know their church is True by the power of the Holy Spirit! While I was researching the kinds of religious experiences these other faithful peole had, I heard beautiful testimonies about the efficacy of the Eucharist, or about hearing the voice of God and so forth. Some of them had converted from other faiths, including Mormonism. One woman told me, speaking of her conversion to Catholicism, "I feel like every spiritual experience that I have is so pure and genuine... If I had known what I was missing out on; if I had realized how powerful and beautiful and glorious my religious experience could be, I wouldn't have wasted so much time floundering about." She felt that her previous experiences in her former church had been "strained" and "counterfeit" in comparison. I think we have people who feel the same way about finding the gospel when they come to be converted.

The hard question for me is: Does the Spirit testify to the truth of other Churches? If so, what can that mean? If not, how do we know we have the Spirit and the others are mistaken in their feelings?

So, if we must accept Jesus' church in order to accept Jesus, then which church is it? It's a familiar question. There is a conversion process that has to take place, and the fact that the process has taken such different directions in different people is problematic to me. I am unwilling to believe that the sincere adherents of other faiths are dumb or wicked or just not doing it right, or that God would make finding the truth such a difficult and subtle thing. And if the adversary can so easily counterfeit the feelings of the Holy Ghost, then we are all lost.

[mtomm]

I listened to a Mormon Stories podcast that interviewed the Prince family from Texas. It also brought tears. They bear no animosity and much of their family is still very active. Was very refreshing and not bitter in the least.

[CASteinman]

CASteinman, I really like the tone of your encouragement. I think this is constructive.

I don't know if Tacenda and I are in the same place or not, but we seem to be in a class of doubters who can't leave the Church. We don't want to. When I am engaged in it, there is nothing better. Getting into the work is where it's at, and that makes all the difference. When I step back, though, and retreat into the inner life of reflection where my feelings, thoughts, and experiences combine, then I find the whole thing very implausible. It all falls to pieces, and I can get cynical and critical.

First thank you.

Secondly, I really believe in the power of Faith. I would not say my testimony of this is so strong that I could move mountains, but I really believe it, I think I have seen it in life in a variety of paths. I would not say that the relationship is exactly the same as "every action creates an equal and opposite reaction" but its pretty strong if you know where to look and how to recognize it.

I believe that someone else has posted previously about the effect of being active in the gospel and the strength of our testimonies. I will see if I can find that post because I thought it was very good.

I don't want to go into detail, because I fear it would further damage your already wavering testimony, but in my case, I am not sure that I would be a Christian or believe in God if it were not for the LDS Faith, Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. When people say its easy to believe in Jesus but hard to believe in the Church -- I don't get that at all.

I absolutely believe that the Spirit can testify of truth wherever it is found -- even in other Churches or even outside of any Church. I think if it did not, it would not be fulfilling the promises of the Gospel that I believe were given to us before we were born. I am convinced, for example, that the Spirit motivates entirely secular or even atheistic people to organize or create beauty and invention. That does not mean, however that there is no True Church, nor does it mean we need to doubt it. I also do not believe that the adversary counterfeits the Holy Spirit -- because I don't believe it can. BUT I do believe that people lie and I also believe that people can be confused and lost in what they detect. In particular, they can substitute emotion for the Spirit of God -- which is almost exactly backwards.

Regardless of our capacity for error, we must accept the Gospel and the Representatives of the Lord. This is not negotiable with Jesus according to His words and instructions both in ancient times and in modern times.

Hence, the Church and Gospel are a sifting and sorting mechanism and our role with regard to them will be part of the judgment.

For the most part, Regardless of our standing, God will bless us all, but he is seeking for us to become the Elect. We can cooperate or we can let things get in the way. We are in charge of this. In a sense... we owe Jesus such a debt of Gratitude because He has given us great power of our eternal destiny. Everyone can choose. We can all choose! We have the power! Hooray!

Edited August 15, 2012 by CASteinman

[Ahab]

I think you can have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in all man made religions. My allegience is to Him not a church, sorry if I've let you down.

You have that exactly right.

A church is a group or assembly of people, and even his one true church is flawed in some ways because all of us are still human.

That's why we all need to have our faith in him, and FROM him, whatever group of people we're with.

I don't see members of our Lord's one true Church having faith in the church like some other people in other churches do, though. I think most of us realize the Church is flawed, and how some of our programs could be improved. When I think of a church that people have faith in like they should have faith only in God, I usually think of the Catholic church. Their faith is in that more than it is from God.

[Ahab]

...I understand Tacenda's "Jesus, but not Church" mentality. It's not a difficult stretch to accept Jesus, but what about "His" church? Does He have one? How can we know it?

First, it would help to define what it would mean for him to have a Church, and to realize why he would have only one.

From there it's just a matter of asking him to tell you which one that is while you just accept his answer.

Obviously we have formulas for that. We talk about desire; about cultivating a place for that faith to grow. Then we talk about the witness of the Spirit. Many people here have invested a lot in various other kinds of evidences as well, but the Spirit is what we fall back on.

True, while making sure it is the right Spirit and not just a spirit.

What about my acquaintances of other faiths? I spent some time talking to Catholics and Orthodox Christians about their faith and found that many of them have spiritual witnesses. They know their church is True by the power of the Holy Spirit!

If their testimony was really from the Holy Spirit they would all agree and be in unity about which church was and is the right one.

While I was researching the kinds of religious experiences these other faithful peole had, I heard beautiful testimonies about the efficacy of the Eucharist, or about hearing the voice of God and so forth. Some of them had converted from other faiths, including Mormonism. One woman told me, speaking of her conversion to Catholicism, "I feel like every spiritual experience that I have is so pure and genuine... If I had known what I was missing out on; if I had realized how powerful and beautiful and glorious my religious experience could be, I wouldn't have wasted so much time floundering about." She felt that her previous experiences in her former church had been "strained" and "counterfeit" in comparison.

I felt that I was in the right church when I was in another church, too.

And then I found the one true Church, and could see the difference.

I think we have people who feel the same way about finding the gospel when they come to be converted.

Yep.

The hard question for me is: Does the Spirit testify to the truth of other Churches?

The truth the other churches know about, yes, but the Holy Spirit will testify that there is only one Church while telling which one that is.

If so, what can that mean? If not, how do we know we have the Spirit and the others are mistaken in their feelings?

Heh, through the power of the Holy Spirit, or by having some other person who is God tell you.

It's really that easy, or that difficult, depending on your perspective.

And doesn't it just make sense to have that be the ultimate way for all of us to find the right answers? From God, I mean? To the extent that our faith really is from God, we will be rewarded for valiance in obtaining the testimony of Jesus Christ as it is declared by the Holy Spirit, and to the extent we are mistaken by not making our calling and election sure by getting our faith from God, through the Holy Spirit, we will fall short of receiving the glory we otherwise could have had if we had relied upon God for our understanding.

People may be mistaken in thinking something evil is good, or vice versa, but with God we can know the difference.

So, if we must accept Jesus' church in order to accept Jesus, then which church is it?

The one that is his.

It's a familiar question. There is a conversion process that has to take place, and the fact that the process has taken such different directions in different people is problematic to me. I am unwilling to believe that the sincere adherents of other faiths are dumb or wicked or just not doing it right, or that God would make finding the truth such a difficult and subtle thing. And if the adversary can so easily counterfeit the feelings of the Holy Ghost, then we are all lost.

I'm not worried. Whatever happens, God will be the judge, and I have faith that he'll reward everyone according to their own works, including whether or not we lived by faith from God.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Ahab

[Craig Paxton]

op

Edited August 15, 2012 by Craig Paxton

[teddyaware]

Tacenda, You said:

"I think you can have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in all man made religions. My allegience is to Him not a church, sorry if I've let you down."

The prophet Alma, in Alma 32, said that if one cannot so much as produce even the smallest particle of genuine faith, in order to generate a strong, immovable testimony, the fallback position, then, is to at least have a sincere desire to want to believe.

It was 42 years ago this month that I was baptised and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. As I think back to those wonderful, eventful weeks preceeding my baptism -- when I investigated the Church with such diligence and passion -- I clearly remember having a powerful desire to want to believe the Restored Gospel is true. This desire or hope wasn't powerful enough to impell me to be baptised, but it was powerful enough to cause me to really want to know the truth. All along the process of investigation I was most thrilled and excited about the teachings of the Church -- the doctrines just made so much sense! And at long last I was getting really satisfying answers to questions that had puzzled me for as long as I could remember. As a result of all the wonderful things I learned, I could see that if there truly is a God, he really is a God of love.

My strong, even enthusiastic desire in those days to know the Church is true was mightily rewarded, For I was blessed with and still possess a most powerful and enduring testimoy of the Godhead, the prophet Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, living apostles and prophets, and everything else that follows. Yes, the teachings of the Church were so wonderful and soul satisfying to me that I really wanted to believe them.

My questions to you are these: Do you believe it would be the most wondeful thing imaginable if it turned out the unique teachings of the Church really are true? How strong, really, is your desire to want to fully believe the Church is true? If the truthfulness of the gospel was to be undeniably revealed to you by personal revelation, what would you do with that knowledge, and how would you change the way you live your life?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

op

Please share more this was really insightful.

[gtaggart]

No, for once I agree with Craig Paxton. Anybody care to actually comments on Kirn's essay--other than the two who briefly did? You can find a link to it at the Opening Post, or op.

[Ahab]

Tacenda, You said:

"I think you can have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in all man made religions. My allegience is to Him not a church, sorry if I've let you down."

The prophet Alma, in Alma 32, said that if one cannot so much as produce even the smallest particle of genuine faith, in order to generate a strong, immovable testimony, the fallback position, then, is to at least have a sincere desire to want to believe.

... that is, want to believe what is true, and people should start with the idea that it might be true.

It was 42 years ago this month that I was baptised and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. As I think back to those wonderful, eventful weeks preceeding my baptism -- when I investigated the Church with such diligence and passion -- I clearly remember having a powerful desire to want to believe the Restored Gospel is true. This desire or hope wasn't powerful enough to impell me to be baptised, but it was powerful enough to cause me to really want to know the truth.

That's good. That's how it should have been... just wanting to know what is true.

All along the process of investigation I was most thrilled and excited about the teachings of the Church -- the doctrines just made so much sense! And at long last I was getting really satisfying answers to questions that had puzzled me for as long as I could remember. As a result of all the wonderful things I learned, I could see that if there truly is a God, he really is a God of love.

Sounds similar to what I experienced as I discovered the truth. It all just made so much more sense that all of that drivel I was being handed in anti-Mormon books and pamphlets. I was being enlightened and I could not only see it, but also feel it.

My strong, even enthusiastic desire in those days to know the Church is true was mightily rewarded, For I was blessed with and still possess a most powerful and enduring testimoy of the Godhead, the prophet Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, living apostles and prophets, and everything else that follows. Yes, the teachings of the Church were so wonderful and soul satisfying to me that I really wanted to believe them.

I think you mean after you "tasted" the good word of God and "knew" what you were experiencing, which came after thinking it may be true.

My questions to you are these: Do you believe it would be the most wonderful thing imaginable if it turned out the unique teachings of the Church really are true?

You first might want to make sure she correctly understands the teachings of the Church, otherwise she might say No.

There are many perversions of Church teachings that I wouldn't want to believe, and some I don't like even though I know they are true.

How strong, really, is your desire to want to fully believe the Church is true?

You do realize the Church is the people who are members of it, don't you?

What do you mean when you say "The Church is true"? It is truly the Lord's church, but even we are not perfect.

If the truthfulness of the gospel was to be undeniably revealed to you by personal revelation, what would you do with that knowledge, and how would you change the way you live your life?

Even revelation from God can be denied. I'd ask why she would or might want to join with people like us?

What would we need to have that she would want?

[Ahab]

Okay, something more in response to the op:

The title of this thread is a bit ambiguous, so let me be clear: author Walter Kirn wrote a piece in TNR, titled "Confessions of an Ex-Mormon," that brought tears to my eyes at the end. Why can't all who leave the church treat it as kindly as he does?

Who was it who said that when people have a testimony of the truth and then reject it they will fight against the Church? Those aren't the exact words, but close enough. Anyway, that's why. I think people like Walter are leaving without receiving a testimony from God, which is why they aren't fighting against it. To them, it all becomes just another choice among the many choices available in the world and they just don't want any more of it, at least not for themselves, although they can be okay if other people get something from it.

Why can't they, like he, see the something he'd missed?

Because he wasn't looking hard enough to find it. He would have to see it first to know he missed it, you know.

Maybe as important, why do we--those who remain active, committed Saints--often fail to see it as well?

Not looking hard enough to find it, usually. Lots of people like the Church because of the people they hang out with, or because they like the programs and/or activities, or becasue there is something about it they like but they're just not sure what it is yet.

I keep hoping they'll all see it someday, or at least not ever fight against us.

[pmccombs1]

True, while making sure it is the right Spirit and not just a spirit.

How does one discern between these things? I've personally had spiritual feelings of a similar quality on a number of different things, some of them conflicting.

If their testimony was really from the Holy Spirit they would all agree and be in unity about which church was and is the right one.

Related to the question above, how can we know that our "spirit" is the right one?

I felt that I was in the right church when I was in another church, too.

And then I found the one true Church, and could see the difference.

I heard that story numerous times! Being a Baptist or a Mormon or an Evangelical was just ho-hum until Catholicism or the Coptic Orthodox church came along (or vice versa), and then there was this amazing difference and now it is so clear which one is true! Like night and day. The story isn't unique to the experience of Mormonism.

The truth the other churches know about, yes, but the Holy Spirit will testify that there is only one Church while telling which one that is.

How can one explain the Charismatic experience of the Catholic Sister who, during a time of spiritual seeking, heard the voice of the Lord tell her to get up and go to the Catholic Church? Or the conflicted man who is woken up in the middle of the night by a sublime and electrifying pure knowledge--a light and energy that courses through him and sets him on the path of the agnostic?

It is one thing to allow that other churches and other people have the Spirit insofar as some of their teachings are true. I think that's generous, and perhaps sets us apart as a people who are willing to allow for the beliefs of others. But what is it called when their Holy Ghost tells them that their Patriarch is the mouthpiece of God? Now we have to come up with some other explanation: It's a "spirit" and not "The Spirit." Well, how do we know that they don't have "The Spirit" and we only a "spirit?" That's the question.

Heh, through the power of the Holy Spirit, or by having some other person who is God tell you.

So, that's just the problem. Given the question: "How can I known that this undescribably sublime spiritual feeling is the Holy Ghost?" The answer cannot be: "Through the power of the Holy Ghost." That's begging the question. If you can't be sure of whence the spiritual feeling comes, what can you rely on? Well, God could come and tell you. I like that a little better, though it still has its problems because apparently even God has visited various people and given them contradictory teachings. Someone is right, someone is wrong, or all are wrong, or all are right in some subjective sense. The epistemology of how one knows and discerns spiritual truth is simply problematic as soon as we start talking about universals that are diffcult to quantify and measure in objective ways.

It's really that easy, or that difficult, depending on your perspective.

Difficult from my perspective!

And doesn't it just make sense to have that be the ultimate way for all of us to find the right answers? From God, I mean? To the extent that our faith really is from God, we will be rewarded for valiance in obtaining the testimony of Jesus Christ as it is declared by the Holy Spirit, and to the extent we are mistaken by not making our calling and election sure by getting our faith from God, through the Holy Spirit, we will fall short of receiving the glory we otherwise could have had if we had relied upon God for our understanding.

If the feelings of the Spirit were more reliable, I'd agree with you! But I can't know what other people are feeling, if they really are having revelations from a Holy Spirit or something else. I can only kow what I feel, and I have discovered that I can have a spiritual witness of many things, even some that conflict. I've felt the influence of the Spirit in the usual places and for the usual things, but also, for instance, when I read Eugene England's essay on the Weeping God of Mormonism. I really love that Essay and feel it deeply. Likewise, when I read some of John Milbank's Thomistic theology, which is completely opposite, I feel strong promptings there. And when I read Sam Keen, that agnostic I mentioned earlier, I get very moving confirmations of truth. So, it's an interesting phenomenon, but as far as epistemology goes, I'm more of a reliablist.

I'm of the opinion that what we bring to the table is key. If you bring a willing mind, you get the experience of the "Spirit" regardless of what the content is. You first have to start with desire. I think it begins in an altered mental state and that the Spirit felt by Catholics, etc., is probably the same one we feel even though it witnesses to opposing truths.

I once attended a demonstration of hypnosis that made this mental facility quite clear to me. The hypnotist started his act by saying (and I paraphrase), "fear not: believe only." And from there, his subjects could experience anything he wished them to experience. They felt joy and sadness, they saw things, they were jolted by electric forces, they could even smell scents in the air. One man was made to forget the number four, and he argued with the hyptnotist that he knew there was no number between three and five! He knew it! All this because these subjects were willing and trusting; they simply stopped "kicking against the pricks" as it were, and allowed themselves to enter into the stories that were told them by an authority. It is truly remarkable, this human mind. Is that something akin to the religious experience? I begin to think that there is a connection.

I'm not worried. Whatever happens, God will be the judge, and I have faith that he'll reward everyone according to their own works, including whether or not we lived by faith from God.

I too believe all those who do good are rewarded in some way or another. Getting that faith is what I'm working on. I thought I had it once. Did I? Often it seems like I can recapture that in my prayers and studies, just as in former times. I don't see belief as either you have it or you don't; it seems to fluxuate.

Sorry if this is only tangentially related to Walter Kirn and his reflections. While there are ex-mormons who still love something about the LDS church, we have active, practicing Mormons who doubt it.

Edited August 15, 2012 by pmccombs1

[Ahab]

How does one discern between these things? I've personally had spiritual feelings of a similar quality on a number of different things, some of them conflicting.

In a word, experience, just like you need experience to know when you are getting to know anybody.

It can also help to realize that spirits can be represented as on either side of 2 extreme positions, such as good or evil. It is true that some spirits can be a mixture of some from both extremes, falling somewhere in the middle, but for the purpose of discerning spirits it can help to compare them to the extreme examples, ultimately either good or evil.

From there you can equate God as being on the extreme good side with Satan on the side of ultimate evil.

Related to the question above, how can we know that our "spirit" is the right one?

Well, it might help if you first identify which one is "right" for you.

If "right" to you is whoever is evil, then those on that side are with Satan. For the good stuff, the right one is God.

I heard that story numerous times! Being a Baptist or a Mormon or an Evangelical was just ho-hum until Catholicism or the Coptic Orthodox church came along (or vice versa), and then there was this amazing difference and now it is so clear which one is true! Like night and day. The story isn't unique to the experience of Mormonism.

Right, because different people like different things.

Some people call evil good, because they like what is evil, without even realizing it is evil.

How can one explain the Charismatic experience of the Catholic Sister who, during a time of spiritual seeking, heard the voice of the Lord tell her to get up and go to the Catholic Church?

There are several ways to explain that.

One explanation would be if her Lord was Satan, even though she may think he is Jesus becasue Satan is being deceptive.

Another explanation would be to find out what the Lord Jesus wanted her to do at the Catholic Church. Maybe the Lord Jesus knew she would hear something that would eventually help her to leave the Catholic Church once she heard and compared the message to that of his true Church.

Those are just 2 explanations of the top of my head.

Or the conflicted man who is woken up in the middle of the night by a sublime and electrifying pure knowledge--a light and energy that courses through him and sets him on the path of the agnostic?

Anyone can get on the path of the agnostic from wherever they are or are going. All it takes is a wrong turn.

It is one thing to allow that other churches and other people have the Spirit insofar as some of their teachings are true. I think that's generous, and perhaps sets us apart as a people who are willing to allow for the beliefs of others. But what is it called when their Holy Ghost tells them that their Patriarch is the mouthpiece of God?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

Now we have to come up with some other explanation: It's a "spirit" and not "The Spirit." Well, how do we know that they don't have "The Spirit" and we only a "spirit?" That's the question.

I advise that you ask God for the answer, and if Satan answers, learn to tell the difference between good and evil.

So, that's just the problem. Given the question: "How can I known that this undescribably sublime spiritual feeling is the Holy Ghost?" The answer cannot be: "Through the power of the Holy Ghost." That's begging the question.

At some point a person needs to find out who and what God really is and that what they're saying is true, if they're ever going to get to know God. Once they know someone who is God, and on the extreme good side, then they'll know what I'm referring to as the "power" of the Holy Ghost. Satan can't duplicate that exactly, but he can get close enough to fool those who don't really know that power.

If you can't be sure of whence the spiritual feeling comes, what can you rely on? Well, God could come and tell you. I like that a little better, though it still has its problems because apparently even God has visited various people and given them contradictory teachings.

God has never given anyone contradictory teachings concerning the same issues in the same circumstances.

Someone is right, someone is wrong, or all are wrong, or all are right in some subjective sense.

Remind you of what Joseph Smith said concerning James 1:5, maybe?

The epistemology of how one knows and discerns spiritual truth is simply problematic as soon as we start talking about universals that are diffcult to quantify and measure in objective ways.

It's rather easy to someone who knows the difference between Satan (the evil side) and God (the good side), at least if you love what is good.

Difficult from my perspective!

Look at it from God's (the eternal) perspective.

If the feelings of the Spirit were more reliable, I'd agree with you!

They are.

But I can't know what other people are feeling, if they really are having revelations from a Holy Spirit or something else.

You can know if you feel God's presence, or Satan's presence, though. And you can also learn what they want to teach you.

I'm going to stop responding to your post now. Take whatever you want from what I have shared with you.

[teddyaware]

Ahab,

Without (at least at this point) getting in to the nuances of your take on my post, let me clarify by the following:

From the time I was a young child, I didn't take life and existence at all for granted. In other words, I knew that even the mere fact that anything at all existed was the greatest miracle of all miracles. So as a result of this awareness, I was always trying to make some logical sense of it all. I knew intuitively there had to be some ultimate answer as to why the universe exists in all its glory, immensity, complexity and mystery (universe in this instance means all things that exist in any way, everywhere throughout all existence).

In fact, this fervent, lifelong desire to know the ultimate meaning of life and why things exist led me on quest -- starting in my teens -- to discover if there was a Supreme Being, and if he had revealed his true religion (in this case, 'religion' means a revealed way to understand and live life so as to maximize happiness). Yes, it's true, I was one of those "rare birds" who actively studied religions in order to find, if possible, the true religion.

All the religions I studied supplied answers that left me dissatisfied and, ultimately, disillusionesd. Disillusioned that is, until the LDS missionaries knocked a my home's front door in June of 1970 (I was almost 21 at the time). From the first moment I heard the teachings, doctrines and commandments of the Restored Gospel I was being intellectually persuaded by the logic, fairness and beauty of it all. It was very exciting because somehow it seemed I already knew, deep within, that what the elders were teaching me was true, but somehow I had mysteriously forgotten till they reminded me. With this last point, I acknowledge the Spirit was witnessing to me throughout the discussions and conversations with the elders. In my case, all that was needed to "seal the deal" was a powerful, unmistakable revelation from God to cap off my learning experience, to me know if my "instincts" were correct.

After this period of diligent study, reflection and prayer the Lord me know, in no uncertain terms, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is his true church. Like Alma the younger, after this revelatory experience I have never doubted. And like the tree of life, my testimony continues to grow, bloom and produce delightful fruit, in greater and greater abundance.

[Tacenda]

No, for once I agree with Craig Paxton. Anybody care to actually comments on Kirn's essay--other than the two who briefly did? You can find a link to it at the Opening Post, or op.

I feel I didn't help the matter. I so hope people stop to read it. I resonate with the author in that he felt kinship with the LDS single adults. They were fun to be around didn't push religion. Much of what I see in my circle of LDS friends. Of course I'm going by memory here, maybe I better read the article again.

[Tacenda]

Tacenda, You said:

"I think you can have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in all man made religions. My allegience is to Him not a church, sorry if I've let you down."

The prophet Alma, in Alma 32, said that if one cannot so much as produce even the smallest particle of genuine faith, in order to generate a strong, immovable testimony, the fallback position, then, is to at least have a sincere desire to want to believe.

It was 42 years ago this month that I was baptised and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. As I think back to those wonderful, eventful weeks preceeding my baptism -- when I investigated the Church with such diligence and passion -- I clearly remember having a powerful desire to want to believe the Restored Gospel is true. This desire or hope wasn't powerful enough to impell me to be baptised, but it was powerful enough to cause me to really want to know the truth. All along the process of investigation I was most thrilled and excited about the teachings of the Church -- the doctrines just made so much sense! And at long last I was getting really satisfying answers to questions that had puzzled me for as long as I could remember. As a result of all the wonderful things I learned, I could see that if there truly is a God, he really is a God of love.

My strong, even enthusiastic desire in those days to know the Church is true was mightily rewarded, For I was blessed with and still possess a most powerful and enduring testimoy of the Godhead, the prophet Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, living apostles and prophets, and everything else that follows. Yes, the teachings of the Church were so wonderful and soul satisfying to me that I really wanted to believe them.

My questions to you are these: Do you believe it would be the most wondeful thing imaginable if it turned out the unique teachings of the Church really are true? How strong, really, is your desire to want to fully believe the Church is true? If the truthfulness of the gospel was to be undeniably revealed to you by personal revelation, what would you do with that knowledge, and how would you change the way you live your life?

If I hadn't read the JoD and the hidden teachings of BY and JS then my answer would be yes. So needless to say my final answer is no, I don't care to be a Goddess over my own planet, like I've said before on another thread, I'm fine with being an angel and helping those on earth. Don't laugh.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Tacenda

[CASteinman]

How does one discern between these things? I've personally had spiritual feelings of a similar quality on a number of different things, some of them conflicting.

You may have never been taught exactly how to detect the true spirit of God. This was something I worked very hard to instill in the people I taught on my mission. Not because it ensured their baptism but because I believed (and believe) it was my responsibility to them. But I feel somewhat unusual in this and I never hear it emphasized for missionaries.

The truth is that even people who had very remarkable spiritual experiences would turn their backs on them. So this is no guarantee. But still, at least it would help you with this problem you are experiencing.

[CASteinman]

If I hadn't read the JoD and the hidden teachings of BY and JS then my answer would be yes. So needless to say my final answer is no, I don't care to be a Goddess over my own planet, like I've said before on another thread, I'm fine with being an angel and helping those on earth. Don't laugh.

Even for that, you must still get on the path and through the gate that is the Celestial Kingdom.

When shooting at a target with arrows one must "Shoot higher" than the target when at a great distance because often we don't quite get the straight flight path we would hope for. We have to aim higher than where we really want to hit, just to have a chance of hitting our goal.

[teddyaware]

If I hadn't read the JoD and the hidden teachings of BY and JS then my answer would be yes. So needless to say my final answer is no, I don't care to be a Goddess over my own planet, like I've said before on another thread, I'm fine with being an angel and helping those on earth. Don't laugh.

You make it sound as if becoming joint heirs with Christ is something to avoid. Do you think Jesus may at times regret taking on the responsibility of being the God of this planet? Do you think it's possible he may even consider being the God of this planet a drag? Do you not believe the Lord when he says that those who inherit the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom (exaltation)receive a fulness of joy -- joy that cannot be experienced in any other way? As for yours truly, I believe him. And I believe the Lord knows better than anyone else how to find the deepest joy and happiness possible.

I would wonder if someone who thinks as you do, when it comes to the eternal destiny of men and women, might have a problem with negative thinking generally. Hopefully, negativity doesn't spill over into the other of the avenues of your life. Remember, the adversary is the father of negative thinking. The goal is to have a bright hope in Christ, not a dim, obscure, negative view of our future state.

The good news is I think you may hang around this board because you haven't totally given up on the hope of achieving the maximum degree of happiness the Lord has in store for you. You're likely on here so often because you're hoping to find here, among your sympathetic friends, a way or means to reclaim something special and sacred you think you've lost. Jesus said, "Doubt not, but be believing."

All the best to you...