Hi I'M A Mormon And I'M An Atheist

[djholmess]

So let me ask it simply then; does exultation into the celestial kingdom depend on your obedience or not?

[Calm]

In what sense do you mean depend?

I could be as obedient as a robot 24/7. It would mean nothing unless God chose to give me exaltation.

[mfbukowski]

Problem with your analogy is that there can be more than one Richard.

Unless you are suggesting there is more than one God the Father, we are thinking about the same person, just have different understandings about him....like the blind men and the elephant.

This is pretty brilliant.

The whole EV deal about us worshipping "another God" implies that there are at least 2 gods to be worshipped.

The might say we worship a "false" god but then the problem is that all they are asserting is that they worship the "true" god, and then the question which obviously follows is- "In what way is he false?" and all that leads to is the fact that we understand the term differently than they do- which means it is all semantics.

We already know that of course. But saying there IS a god which is "false" I would think might create an interesting quandry for them.

Anyway you look at it, the idea that we worship "another God", is of course ridiculous.

[mfbukowski]

Therefore if we each talk about a God but our descriptions of him are substantially different then surely we are talking about two different Gods.

See what I mean?

This guy is a polytheist- some are true and some are not- that is all that can be understood from this.

[mfbukowski]

Calmoriah,

I'm not trying to start a debate in anyway just exlpaining how I see things.

I think I would say;

Mormons claim to believe in the Biblical Jesus

I also claim to believe in the Biblical Jesus

In my view we are talking about two different concepts of Jesus and therefore either one or both of us are mistaken.

Uh oh.

He has just reversed his previous position.

[mfbukowski]

KevinG

Depends on what you mean by ‘believe,’ ‘Jesus,’ ‘Saviour’ and ‘atonement’

How nice.

Now he agrees with us completely about the fact that is all just a matter of definitions.

[mfbukowski]

the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,

I have crossed out the only thing that LDS do not believe. Everything else is LDS doctrine.

Actually, I say leave those in, with the word "catholic" understood as "universal" which is what it originally meant.

I DO believe that God's church is universal, and we ARE members of that church.

I also believe in the "communion of saints" as Catholics used to understand it- that we are all one on the faith both the living and dead, on both sides of the veil.

The communion of saints is the spiritual solidarity which binds together the faithful on earth, the souls in purgatory, and the saints in heaven in the organic unity of the same mystical body under Christ its head, and in a constant interchange of supernatural offices. The participants in that solidarity are called saints by reason of their destination and of their partaking of the fruits of the Redemption (1 Corinthians 1:2 — Greek Text).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm

Change the word "purgatory" to "spirit prison" and we are so close there is virtually no difference.

In other words, in my opinion, Mormons accept the Apostles Creed

Edited July 10, 2012 by mfbukowski

[cwald]

So let me ask it simply then; does exultation into the celestial kingdom depend on your obedience or not?

I think it is a fair question. And I don't think it has been answered.

I guess, unless someone refutes it, my answer would be, "yes."

The LDS church often teaches that obedience is the first law of heaven.

And, one must be obedient to certain commandments like WoW, tithing, Law of Chastity, attend church meetings etc etc to qualify for a temple recommend...and only those folks who are endowed and married in the temple will receive exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom.

If I have misrepresented the LDS church and it's doctrine, someone please correct me.

[Calm]

I think it is a fair question. And I don't think it has been answered.

Did you read the link I posted? I think it is clearly answered there.

and only those folks who are endowed and married in the temple will receive exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom.

But since this can occur after mortality and does occur then for the majority of people who have lived on earth....it would seem that not too many of those in the CK percentagewise will have attended LDS church meetings in their lifetime. Edited July 11, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

In another thread recently, I used the analogy of learning to read for being obedient and following the commandments that God has given to us. Exaltation is the most wonderful book possible, full of wisdom and wonder and the ultimate story. God gives us the book when we are ready to appreciate it, but learning to read is not an exchange for the book, we did not earn the book by learning to read and we are not rewarded by the book for learning to read. Instead we are prepared for the book by learning to read, we will not receive the book until we can read because we could not appreciate it as it should be appreciated prior to having this ability.

Add to that God is the one who teaches us to read by giving us lessons, we are not selftaught.....

[cwald]

So no, obedience is not required?

I don't know if the church knows it own answer to the question...and no one here will just answer the question....it is a yes or no.

No, I did not read the link. On a smart phone and thought this was a simple answer. I guess not.

[Calm]

I don't know how you got that from what I said....

As for the link:

The Obedient Gain Eternal Life

The Lord counsels us, “If you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God” (D&C 14:7).

The Lord has described other blessings that will come to those who obey Him in righteousness and truth until the end:

“Thus saith the Lord—I, the Lord, am merciful and gracious unto those who fear me, and delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end.

“Great shall be their reward and eternal shall be their glory.

“And to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old, and for ages to come, will I make known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining to my kingdom.

“Yea, even the wonders of eternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, even the things of many generations.

“And their wisdom shall be great, and their understanding reach to heaven. …

“For by my Spirit will I enlighten them, and by my power will I make known unto them the secrets of my will—yea, even those things which eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor yet entered into the heart of man” (D&C 76:5–10).

[cwald]

Thank you. Okay.

So, obedience is required for exaltation. There is your answer.

[Calm]

I prefer the term "prerequisite", but as long as someone makes explicit that obedience is not an exchange or a way to earn our exaltation, that exaltation is a gift from God, if someone wants to say it is required, I do not mind. After all, Christ said "if ye love me, keep my commandments" so saying that one is committed to keeping the commandments, to being obedient can be just another way of saying "I love the Lord" and why would one want exaltation if one didn't love Christ and want to become one with him and the Father?

Edited July 11, 2012 by calmoriah

[rodheadlee]

Thank you. Okay.

So, obedience is required for exaltation. There is your answer.

If you know much, much will be expected.If you don't know how can you obey? You'll be judged by what you have done with what you know.

[cwald]

I prefer the term "prerequisite", but as long as someone makes explicit that obedience is not an exchange or a way to earn our exaltation, that exaltation is a gift from God, if someone wants to say it is required, I do not mind. After all, Christ said "if ye love me, keep my commandments" so saying that one is committed to keeping the commandments, to being obedient can be just another way of saying "I love the Lord" and why would one want exaltation if one didn't love Christ and want to become one with him and the Father?

Fair enough.

[djholmess]

Ok so obedience is nessecary, not to earn God's grace but a a prerequisite that must be met in order to be able to receive God's grace.

Hypothetically speaking then lets say there are two guys who hear the exact same teaching on the way to receive Gods grace; one responds in faith and obedience and is exulted, the other is damned up. Isn't the only difference between the one who was exulted and the one who wasn't something he did himself?

[djholmess]

See what I mean?

This guy is a polytheist- some are true and some are not- that is all that can be understood from this.

Monotheism is the belief that there is only one God in existence, it doesn't deny that there can be many false gods out there who are believed to exist by people.

[djholmess]

Uh oh.

He has just reversed his previous position.

Not at all, my next line would be;

Because there is only one true Jesus then one or both of us is worshiping a false Jesus, a Jesus that only exists in the mind, not in reality

[volgadon]

Monotheism is the belief that there is only one God in existence, it doesn't deny that there can be many false gods out there who are believed to exist by people.

That is a radical form of monotheism, but not the only kind of monotheism.

[djholmess]

That is a radical form of monotheism, but not the only kind of monotheism.

What other kind is there?

[Calm]

Ok so obedience is nessecary, not to earn God's grace but a a prerequisite that must be met in order to be able to receive God's grace.

Not must be met, but we get to meet. Commandments are for our good, not God's. Those who don't follow them miss out on the benefits that God wants to give us, but that we must prepare ourselves for with his help.

[Calm]

Ok so obedience is nessecary, not to earn God's grace but a a prerequisite that must be met in order to be able to receive God's grace.

Hypothetically speaking then lets say there are two guys who hear the exact same teaching on the way to receive Gods grace; one responds in faith and obedience and is exulted, the other is damned up. Isn't the only difference between the one who was exulted and the one who wasn't something he did himself?

No, if the person responds in faith, God does a lot more work to prepare him for receiving grace. The other doesn't get to experience that preparation because basically he didn't ask for it. Edited July 11, 2012 by calmoriah

[djholmess]

Not must be met, but we get to meet. Commandments are for our good, not God's. Those who don't follow them miss out on the benefits that God wants to give us, but that we must prepare ourselves for with his help.

Effectively what is the difference? If you get to meet the prerequisites to recieving Gods grace, and God only gives this grace leading to exultation if you meet the requirements, then how is this any different than saying they need to be met in order to receive Gods grace?

[Calm]

The difference is attitude which makes all the difference in the world. The difference is seeing commandments as a sign of God's love rather than His oppression. The difference is following commandment with joy instead of resentment. The difference is obedience done out of love will bring one a lot closer to God than obedience done out of fear or desire for reward.

Edited July 11, 2012 by calmoriah