Hi I'M A Mormon And I'M An Atheist

[djholmess]

So are you saying then that LDS are to be obedient only because they love; not out of any desire for reward- reward is just a add on bonus then?

[Calm]

God is the best teacher out there. He knows the nature of man and how to shape it so that we are open to the Spirit. It is better to obey out of fear than do disobey, it is better to obey out of desire for the reward of good things than it is to obey out of fear (in most cases, in my opinion) and it is better to obey out of love then obey out of desire for the reward of good things.

Through obedience we can become aware of God's love as he sends us blessing and grow in spiritual maturity...and thus our motivation for obedience will also mature.

[Calm]

Each of us should ask ourselves why we obey God’s commandments. Is it because we fear punishment? Is it because we desire the rewards for living a good life? Is it because we love God and Jesus Christ and want to serve Them?

It is better to obey the commandments because we fear punishment than not to obey them at all. But we will be much happier if we obey God because we love Him and want to obey Him. When we obey Him freely, He can bless us freely. He said, “I, the Lord, … delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end” (D&C 76:5). Obedience also helps us progress and become more like our Heavenly Father. But those who do nothing until they are commanded and then keep the commandments unwillingly lose their reward (see D&C 58:26–29).

http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-35-obedience?lang=eng Edited July 11, 2012 by calmoriah

[djholmess]

Ok I still feel like each time someone answers this question they give a different question.

Bottom line; God will give his grace of exultation equally to all who hear the prerequisites (baptism, Recieving the Holy Spirit, Temple Marriage etc), yes or no?

If yes then what is the tangible difference between someone who responds in faith love and obedience and someone who doesn't with regard to why one receives Gods grace and the other doesn't?

[djholmess]

Ok I still feel like each time someone answers this question they give a different answer.

Bottom line; God offers his grace of exultation equally to all who hear the prerequisites (baptism, Recieving the Holy Spirit, Temple Marriage etc), yes or no?

If yes then what is the tangible difference between someone who responds in faith, love and obedience and someone who doesn't with regard to why one receives Gods grace and the other doesn't?

Couple of corrections, ignore my first post

[Calm]

Ok I still feel like each time someone answers this question they give a different question.

Bottom line; God will give his grace of exultation equally to all who hear the prerequisites (baptism, Recieving the Holy Spirit, Temple Marriage etc), yes or no?

If yes then what is the tangible difference between someone who responds in faith love and obedience and someone who doesn't with regard to why one receives Gods grace and the other doesn't?

God is the one who judges the intent of the heart. Those who desire to be one with God with pure intent will receive exaltation. Those who do not will not.

[djholmess]

So for me personally if I have a pure desire to receive exultation but reject the LDS teachings on the requirement for Baptism or Temple Marriage etc I can still receive exultation?

[Calm]

How can you have a pure desire to receive exaltation which is becoming one with God if you are not interested in following his commandment? If you have a pure desire, then your heart will be soften and you will repent and want to seek after Baptism and the other ordinances God has structured to provide teaching on what eternal life means to us.

Those who love God follow his commandments, those who desire exaltation love God, therefore those who desire exaltation purely, with the pure love of God, will show their love by following his commandments.

I am not sure if there are any different ways I can say this. What is it that is troubling you?

Edited July 11, 2012 by calmoriah

[djholmess]

Because if you take what you just said and sum it up, the requirements for recieving Gods grace of exultation are;

A pure desire for exultation producing:

Repentance

Baptism

Following other various commandments

However when I then summarise this and say that in order to meet the requirements for exultation a person needs the right heart attitude and the right actions flowing from that attitude to be exulted you say I've misunderstood.

[mfbukowski]

Not at all, my next line would be;

Because there is only one true Jesus then one or both of us is worshiping a false Jesus, a Jesus that only exists in the mind, not in reality

Indeed, that is the whole problem.

Your "Jesus" cannot exist in the mind because he is unknowable. His very being is described as a "mystery". If your reality is beyond what the mind can know, it is a very strange reality indeed.

[mfbukowski]

Effectively what is the difference? If you get to meet the prerequisites to recieving Gods grace, and God only gives this grace leading to exultation if you meet the requirements, then how is this any different than saying they need to be met in order to receive Gods grace?

I hate to be pedantic,and I know you don't know the difference, but it's "exaltation" not "exultation". Big difference to us.

[mfbukowski]

The difference is attitude which makes all the difference in the world. The difference is seeing commandments as a sign of God's love rather than His oppression. The difference is following commandment with joy instead of resentment. The difference is obedience done out of love will bring one a lot closer to God than obedience done out of fear or desire for reward.

Dang ya. I actually gave you a point for this. grrrrrr

[mfbukowski]

Ok I still feel like each time someone answers this question they give a different question.

Bottom line; God will give his grace of exultation equally to all who hear the prerequisites (baptism, Recieving the Holy Spirit, Temple Marriage etc), yes or no?

If yes then what is the tangible difference between someone who responds in faith love and obedience and someone who doesn't with regard to why one receives Gods grace and the other doesn't?

If you are doing this only for a reward you are doing it for the wrong reasons. LOVE is also a commandment- "love one another"- if you are not doing it out of love, there is no point in going through the actions robotically.

[mfbukowski]

So for me personally if I have a pure desire to receive exultation but reject the LDS teachings on the requirement for Baptism or Temple Marriage etc I can still receive exultation?

How can you have a desire for exaltation without understanding obedience?

But that's ok- after one wakes up in the spirit world and understand God's will better, it will be quite different. If truly you want it, you will have the opportunity there to see the truth much more easily.

[KevinG]

So for me personally if I have a pure desire to receive exultation but reject the LDS teachings on the requirement for Baptism or Temple Marriage etc I can still receive exultation?

The nice thing about the Mormons is if we turn out to be right and your descendants join us they will provide the ordinances for you in proxy to accept at a later date.

[cwald]

Sorry you cant get a straight forward answer.

The church is in a quandary.

If the answer is YES, then critics will say that Mormons dont believe in "grace" and have to be obedient and earn their way into heaven by following a list of commandments so they can get a temple endowment and temple marriage.

If the church says NO, then the critics will say then why must one be obedient to certain commandments in order to receive exaltation through temple ordinances.

The church wants to control who goes to the temple by enforcing tithing WOW, chastity, etc, but still wants to claim it is only by grace jesus that people are saved. And I understand the whole "grace after all we can do" I just wish members would own up to it's own doctrines. I mean, why are we embarrassed by our concept of needing obedience and works to be saved?

Edited July 11, 2012 by cwald

[Calm]

Sorry you cant get a straight forward answer.

What is it about my answer(s) that was not straightforward. I have explained clearly how obedience interacts with exaltation. If I didn't answer his question, it must have been because as constructed it is meaningless. Edited July 11, 2012 by calmoriah

[KevinG]

Don't confuse your confusion with our lack of understanding of the atonement.

I'm reasonably sure those with the Gift of the Holy Ghost who have covenanted with Christ are on solid ground when it comes to where we are going and just how we will get there.

[mfbukowski]

Sorry you cant get a straight forward answer.

The church is in a quandary.

If the answer is YES, then critics will say that Mormons dont believe in "grace" and have to be obedient and earn their way into heaven by following a list of commandments so they can get a temple endowment and temple marriage.

If the church says NO, then the critics will say then why must one be obedient to certain commandments in order to receive exaltation through temple ordinances.

The church wants to control who goes to the temple by enforcing tithing WOW, chastity, etc, but still wants to claim it is only by grace jesus that people are saved. And I understand the whole "grace after all we can do" I just wish members would own up to it's own doctrines. I mean, why are we embarrassed by our concept of needing obedience and works to be saved?

The reality of course is that there are many meanings of the word "saved"- sometimes it is synonymous with exaltation and sometimes it is not.

If being "saved" is "going to heaven" as most Christians think it is- and/or being resurrected- obedience is not required for anything. You would be "saved" in the telestial kingdom if you never obeyed a single commandment.

That is what many Christians unknowingly want, and unknowingly will receive as a reward if that is what they really want. It's a shame but it's true.

What we believe is that we are "saved" (in the sense of having a happy afterlife) without even faith.

How we are rewarded is entirely different.

Even pastors at Calvary chapel have told me that Billy Graham (assuming he is what he appears to be- no human can judge another) will receive a greater reward than a murdering child molester who "receives Christ" - assuming he does so genuinely- on his deathbed. The way Creedal Christians put it, he will have more "jewels in his crown". This is a well-established creedal teaching.

It is just a matter of justice that those who live 65 years in righteousness will have a greater reward than those who are murderers for most of their lives and then accept Christ.

Either God is just or he is not.

So what we believe is that exaltation is a REWARD for obedience- the ultimate jewel in the crown if you like. If we confuse that and use it as synonymous with what Christians call "salvation" it is no wonder that the issue gets confused.

Elder Holland did a talk on this at conference fairly recently- a couple of years ago

[cwald]

It is just a matter of justice that those who live 65 years in righteousness will have a greater reward than those who are murderers for most of their lives and then accept Christ.

Either God is just or he is not.

So what we believe is that exaltation is a REWARD for obedience- the ultimate jewel in the crown if you like. If we confuse that and use it as synonymous with what Christians call "salvation" it is no wonder that the issue gets confused..

OMG. wow. The arrogance. Are you familiar with Jesus teachings at all? The prodigal son? The laborers in the vineyard?

Please MDDB...tell me this is not what my church actually believes and teaches.

[mfbukowski]

OMG. wow. The arrogance. Are you familiar with Jesus teachings at all? The prodigal son? The laborers in the vineyard?

Please MDDB...tell me this is not what my church actually believes and teaches.

How many pages of biblical references would you like?

John 5:28-29

Rev 20:12-15

Matt 10:40-42

Isaiah 3:9-11

That's a start.

Edited July 12, 2012 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Here I will look them up for you

Revelation 20:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

¹² And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

¹³ And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

¹⁴ And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

¹⁵ And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

John 5:28-29

²⁸ Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

²⁹ And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matt 10:41

⁴¹ He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

Isaiah 3:9-11

⁹ The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.

¹⁰ Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruit of their doings.

¹¹ Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him.

Edited July 12, 2012 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

A few others

Luke 23:41

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

2 Timothy 4:14

14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

2 John 1:8

8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

Revelation 22:12

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Matthew 6:4

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

1 Corinthians 3:8

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

1 Corinthians 3:14

14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

2 Peter 2:13

13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

And I have not even started on the Old Testament.....

Edited July 12, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Eldwynn]

I was speaking to an LDS missionary the other day on campus. After explaining that I find the evidence of the church unconvincing he asked me a few questions. After I said I did not drink alcohol have sex outside my marriage or use tobacco he declared I was actually a Christian. Huh.

The entire ordeal got me thinking. Why is being an atheist Jew acceptable but not an atheist mormon? It is not unreasonable to question the existence of Nephites and Lamanites at this point. I wonder if some day (maybe in a couple thousand years if the second coming does not occur) there will be atheist Mormons.

P.s I guess since I remain on the church records still there is such thing as at least one atheist mormon.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Eldwynn

[mfbukowski]

OMG. wow. The arrogance. Are you familiar with Jesus teachings at all? The prodigal son? The laborers in the vineyard?

Please MDDB...tell me this is not what my church actually believes and teaches.

One more on this.

The prodigal son is actually a story about repentance- remember he DID return to his father's house, did end up doing "what he was supposed to do" after giving up his life of riotous living.

The laborers in the vineyard also WORKED and were rewarded for their works equally- as we will be rewarded equally FOR OUR WORKS even if we receive the gospel after we die. While here, even if we repent- and truly repent- the day before we get hit by the bus going 60 miles per hour, we will receive the reward for our full repentence.

Remember the temple? Ordinances for the dead and all that?