cwald Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 One more on this.The prodigal son is actually a story about repentance- remember he DID return to his father's house, did end up doing "what he was supposed to do" after giving up his life of riotous living.The laborers in the vineyard also WORKED and were rewarded for their works equally- as we will be rewarded equally FOR OUR WORKS even if we receive the gospel after we die. While here, even if we repent- and truly repent- the day before we get hit by the bus going 60 miles per hour, we will receive the reward for our full repentence.Remember the temple? Ordinances for the dead and all that?Well, if nothing else...FINALLY answered djholmess question with a loud affirmative YES, works and obedience is how you earn your way to heaven. And the more works the better off you'll be, I guess.I guess I just don't understand the scriptures. I was taught that Jesus's teachings about the Laborers in the vineyard...they all got the same amount of pay, regardless of what hour they showed up to work. And the Master chastised those early workers who complained about it being unfair, that other who did less work, got the same reward.But, I will concede to your superior scriptural knowledge.
mfbukowski Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) Well, if nothing else...FINALLY answered djholmess question with a loud affirmative YES, works and obedience is how you earn your way to heaven. And the more works the better off you'll be, I guess.I never said that.Either you have reading comprehension problems or are deliberately misrepresenting what I said. We are saved by grace- there is nothing we can do to earn that. We will - virtually all of us- attain "heaven", or "paradise" - just as Jesus told the thief on the cross. We are all sinners and don't deserve anything on our own efforts- nothing but death that is. Sin brought death into the world.Our final rewards after the resurrection however, will be determined by obedience and our works and our intentions. Wherever we end up, we will - each of us- be happy and blissful beyond all possible understanding and perfectly satisfied that our judgement was just.So those who say that Mormons believe that only Mormons will "get to heaven" and that we can somehow "earn" heaven are about as wrong as they can be. We don't believe that at all.Salvation is a free gift of grace. Exaltation is a reward for diligent effort and faith.If you can't understand the distinction, it's not my problem. Edited July 12, 2012 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 And the Master chastised those early workers who complained about it being unfair, that other who did less work, got the same reward.Yep. Some will probably think it is unfair that the gospel is preach to the dead and that they get the same reward some of us will.But, I will concede to your superior scriptural knowledge.Thanks.
Calm Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 Exaltation is a reward for diligent effort and faith.And as you mentioned, but is consistently ignored, it is a reward that is not earned in the sense that the reward so outweighs the efforts being rewarded that to call them earned seems laughable to me.What does make sense is that the efforts and faith prepare us so we can appreciate and utilize the gift/reward fully, otherwise it makes little sense for God to give us them. Why give a child of three a complicated electronic device that they don't even know how to turn on? Helping them mature and have them take lessons to learn how to use the device before giving them the device when they are ready doesn't make the device any less of a gift. 1
mfbukowski Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 And as you mentioned, but is consistently ignored, it is a reward that is not earned in the sense that the reward so outweighs the efforts being rewarded that to call them earned seems laughable to me.What does make sense is that the efforts and faith prepare us so we can appreciate and utilize the gift/reward fully, otherwise it makes little sense for God to give us them. Why give a child of three a complicated electronic device that they don't even know how to turn on? Helping them mature and have them take lessons to learn how to use the device before giving them the device when they are ready doesn't make the device any less of a gift.Precisely.It is all a sublime gift- how could we possibly genuinely earn a reward like that?To me, that actually underlines that the whole faith/works thing from the point of view of creedal Christians is "through the looking glass". They somehow think that "confessing Christ" and having faith in him EARNS them the reward of "salvation" but yet it is by grace that they get it.It's the whole thing about having faith in Christ actually being a "work" in itself- and yet it is supposedly by "grace" that we are saved- after we have confessed Christ.To me, it is self contradictory. To me, it seems more that they are "earning" heaven by accepting Christ. For us on the other hand, I think we truly understand grace- that we don't deserve ANY of it - it is all ultimately a free gift- even the rewards for a righteous life, because the reward is so over-the-top compared to what we do to "earn" it. We can't possibly actually earn it. 1
volgadon Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 The entire ordeal got me thinking. Why is being an atheist Jew acceptable but not an atheist mormon?Acceptable to whom? 1
volgadon Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 What other kind is there?Plenty. For example, a belief that there is only one God that should be worshipped, it doesn't deny that there can be many false gods out there. 1
CASteinman Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 For us on the other hand, I think we truly understand grace- that we don't deserve ANY of it - it is all ultimately a free gift- even the rewards for a righteous life, because the reward is so over-the-top compared to what we do to "earn" it. We can't possibly actually earn it.Do we "deserve" the air we breathe and the water we drink? Maybe -- because it is part of the promise. But not exactly because of our greatness or righteousness. God is merciful to us in a multiplicity of ways. We deserve it all but probably merit substantially less. Nevertheless, it is an error to believe that all of our works -even the good, clean ones -- are as "filthy rags". Which is a belief often advertised in various Churches.
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