Bob Oliverio Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Interesting article I saw from a Salt Lake newspaper today on our need of the persecution complex:http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/54270180-90/mormons-mormon-persecution-says.html.csp?page=2I didn't agree with a couple of comments in the article, but as I have mentioned in the past here, we really do need to do a better job of doing away with this attitude within our current day teachings. It really becomes obvious to outsiders who find the attitude as a response to answers to difficult questions when it actually has no relevance to the topic. But I sometime wonder if this complex and attitude may well have been a product of past teachings or rationalizations to justify the obvious isolations or differences from other Christian organizations.In my limited years since joining, it has been very obvious to see. But I have seen it much more from the older generations within the church than from the younger. Is there really any need for such persecution complex any more and does it provide anything positive for the future of our Church? Obviously, if a major paper in Salt Lake finds such an attitude prevailing enough to do a story on it - should we be addressing the issue as a Church?
DBMormon Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) I agree with the article on this....We so easy jump to either everyone is a faithful member or a anti-mormon. We are so critical of everyone who doesn't take the full leap of faith that we sound hypersensitive to anyone with a different view. Makes us look bad and over defensive which is not how someone with truth on their side normally acts.I think we need to find ways to better handle dissenting opinions. Lets stop painting everyone with a broad brush and better handle opposing viewpoints and insight from non-believers or even LDS on the fringe Edited June 11, 2012 by reelmormon
volgadon Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 But I sometime wonder if this complex and attitude may well have been a product of past teachings or rationalizations to justify the obvious isolations or differences from other Christian organizations.I'm sure it has nothing to do with the persecutions that accompanied the church throughout its formative years and well into the twentieth century, as well as the constant suspicion and ridicule in books and newspapers. 4
CASteinman Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Is there really any need for such persecution complex Its not a complex. We have been and still are persecuted.
Storm Rider Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 I hear this constant refrain from true anti-Mormons..."Mormons have a persecution complex". As Volgadon stated above, "I'm sure it has nothing to do with the persecutions that accompanied the church throughout its formative years and well into the twentieth century, as well as the constant suspicion and ridicule in books and newspapers." When you have newscasters, I use the term lightly, like the gentleman (I can't remember his name and not interested in doing so) on MSNBC that can't stop using the most degrading of descriptions of the LDS Church without receiving any correction from anyone, then it is pretty clear that the LDS Church remains a target of derision and abuse. Further, I know of far too many examples of persecution (social and verbal) that occurs today in the south. No, persecution remains a common event among the LDS people for anyone to say it is just a complex.In addition, I think believing Christians in general have a perception that there is a concerted effort to demean and ridicule their beliefs. There is a perception that these are the last days and they expect that persecution of the faithful. Do we have a us versus them mentality or do we quickly sum up these are LDS and those are anti-Mormons? No, I don't think we a problem there. The saints have a lot of experience in the world and they recognize good people just as easily as everyone else. We also recognize those who go out of their way to demean the LDS people. I am at a loss as why this entire industry of anti-Mormonism is overlooked by so many. It is as if most are blind to what exists in the world and instead is too willing to accuse the victim of being paranoid. I believe the LDS people are a peace-loving people. They are committed to being followers of Jesus Christ and they chaff at the insistence of other so-called Christians that they are not. They will continue to live the principles of the gospel regardless of the actions, accusations, and blather from others. There is a world of difference when someone is asking, "what do you believe" and them telling us what we believe and how stupid we are for believing in prophets and apostles today. 2
mapman Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) It's certainly a lot better than it used to be, but that doesn't mean that we should be happy with the mocking and prejudice that is still common. I do think that we can always do a better job of interacting with non-members. It has been my experience that many Mormons will see malevolence in what I see as just being ignorance. Also, I have heard people say that when they ask for information from Mormons they feel like they try to convert them. Not that that is bad, but it would probably be better if we could do a better job at answering questions in a way that the asker feels is natural so that they do not feel uncomfortable talking with us. Edited June 11, 2012 by mapman 2
volgadon Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Terryl Givens has a superb book on how Mormons were portrayed in the 19th-20th centuries. It provides much better background and answers as to why some members of the church might have a "persecution complex," than the idea that it has to do with a cynical attempt on our side to keep members isolated from protestants. "Viper on the Hearth," check it out!
KevinG Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Who is this royal "we"?My protestant father is much more sensitive to shots at the Mormons by the media and entertainment industry than I am. I tend to brush off the parody and unflattering stories as more of the same coming from ignorance. He gets very defensive of my adopted religion even though he has not adopted it himself.In my experience the vast majority of Saints tend to turn the other cheek also. This is evidenced by the lack of protests and boycotts of broadway musicals, the participation of LDS in service in the larger community and politics. 2
ERayR Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Interesting article I saw from a Salt Lake newspaper today on our need of the persecution complex:http://www.sltrib.co...html.csp?page=2I didn't agree with a couple of comments in the article, but as I have mentioned in the past here, we really do need to do a better job of doing away with this attitude within our current day teachings. It really becomes obvious to outsiders who find the attitude as a response to answers to difficult questions when it actually has no relevance to the topic. But I sometime wonder if this complex and attitude may well have been a product of past teachings or rationalizations to justify the obvious isolations or differences from other Christian organizations.In my limited years since joining, it has been very obvious to see. But I have seen it much more from the older generations within the church than from the younger. Is there really any need for such persecution complex any more and does it provide anything positive for the future of our Church? Obviously, if a major paper in Salt Lake finds such an attitude prevailing enough to do a story on it - should we be addressing the issue as a Church?Talk about a persecution complex first Mormons are persecuting family who are not allowed into LDS weddings and now this. What else is on your list of changes that need to be made to fit into the rest of the christian world? 1
Buzzard Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Talk about a persecution complex first Mormons are persecuting family who are not allowed into LDS weddings and now this. What else is on your list of changes that need to be made to fit into the rest of the christian world?This is kind of apples/oranges. While you must have a recommend to attend a temple sealing, I have seen ring ceremonies that looked a lot like a wedding, and that was introduced solely to reach out to those who could not attend the wedding proper.Contrast that to the respones of critics when we ask for civility and mutual respectl Even on this board someties.It's not 19th century barrel of a gun, burn the whole town down persection, but on gets the impression that if some folks could get away with it, they would love to duplicate their great-great-granddaddy's hobby. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) It is true that these days we don't hear of Mormon farmhouses being burned, Latter-day Saints being forcibly displaced from their homes, Mormon villages being massacred or prophets and apostles being murdered.What persecution occurs today takes far more subtle, under-the-radar forms, such as sophistry; distortion of belief, doctrine, practice and history; slanting and spin; ill-informed defamation; and disparagement and desecration of things we hold sacred.While such forms are not violent or as hostile as the former, they are nevertheless ominous in that they could quickly evolve into the former under certain circumstances. Therefore, they bear vigilance and are to be countered with sound reason to the extent that such defense is possible or appropriate.To draw a parallel, anti-Semitism did not really become unfashionable until good people, Jewish and non-Jewish, began to speak out against it. Edited June 11, 2012 by Scott Lloyd
cinepro Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Just for reference, can someone let me know if Mormons are more persecuted than Catholics, Scientologists, JW's, Jews, and Muslims?
Pahoran Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Interesting article I saw from a Salt Lake newspaper today on our need of the persecution complex:"Our?" Whose "our" is that?Please note that a "complex" is a Freudian construct describing an abnormal psychological condition. Freud imagined that people were simply riddled with them. The notion has largely been abandoned now. But it it still thrown around by people who don't know what it means because they think it makes them sound superior to the people they are psychoanalysing.I didn't agree with a couple of comments in the article, but as I have mentioned in the past here, we really do need to do a better job of doing away with this attitude within our current day teachings.Who are "we?" Are you using that in the royal or the editorial sense?It really becomes obvious to outsiders who find the attitude as a response to answers to difficult questions when it actually has no relevance to the topic.I agree. When people like yourself accuse us of a "persecution complex," it has no relevance to the topic. But I sometime wonder if this complex and attitude may well have been a product of past teachings or rationalizations to justify the obvious isolations or differences from other Christian organizations.In my limited years since joining, it has been very obvious to see. But I have seen it much more from the older generations within the church than from the younger. Is there really any need for such persecution complex any more and does it provide anything positive for the future of our Church? Obviously, if a major paper in Salt Lake finds such an attitude prevailing enough to do a story on it - should we be addressing the issue as a Church?How, exactly? We can't control what our critics say about us; I'm not sure we even want to try.But I defy even you, Bob, to go someplace like Huffington Post and then try to tell us with a straight face that Latter-day Saints are treated just like everyone else.Go on, Bob. Just try.Now, are you going to flee this thread like you fled the "Exclusion" thread, or are you going to actually see this discussion out?Regards,Pahoran 3
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Go on, Bob. Just try.Now, are you going to flee this thread like you fled the "Exclusion" thread, or are you going to actually see this discussion out?Regards,PahoranI double dog dare you Bob.Rofl, what a fun thread.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 This thread should be used as an example do prove the point the article was making.
selek1 Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 (edited) This thread should be used as an example do prove the point the article was making.On the contrary, the thread itself is proof positive that Peggy Fletcher Stack and her groupies are full of it.The simple fact that so many are eager to dismiss real criticism, prejudice, and persecution as a mere affectation or self-delusion is itself proof that criticism, prejudice, and persecution of Mormons is considered an acceptable vice.Were you to substitute almost any other minority group for "Mormon" in the posts above, and your response would be far, far less phlegmatic.Let's try these on for size, shall we?"Jewish persecution complex""Muslim persecution complex""African-American persecution complex""homosexual persecution complex"Are you as eager to dismiss such things out of hand as you are with mere "Mormons"?And how would the press treat you for even voicing such a derisive intimation? Edited June 12, 2012 by selek1 1
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 (edited) How about you wait until your people are herded in ghettos in country after country, 6 million of your number are systematically slaughtered, and literally millions around the world believe you are the cause of all the evil in the world, before you start comparing your "plight" to the Jewish nation?Just a thought.You are not persecuted. Edited June 12, 2012 by BookofMormonLuvr 1
ERayR Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 How about you wait until your people are herded in ghettos in country after country, 6 million of your number are systematically slaughtered, and literally millions around the world believe you are the cause of all the evil in the world, before you start comparing your "plight" to the Jewish nation?Just a thought.You are not persecuted.Oh but didn't you know all those and other persecutions are in the past. They have all gone away. There is no more persecution of any kind. (sarcasm in case you are unable to tell)
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 Oh but didn't you know all those and other persecutions are in the past. They have all gone away. There is no more persecution of any kind. (sarcasm in case you are unable to tell)The fact that multiple millions literally believe Jews are the root of all evil in the world is not a thing of the past.You guys crack me up, you are doing exactly what the article say and you don't even see it. Makes for great comic theater.Lest I be accused of persecuting you... I have had to tell my own people the same things.When we start REALLY obeying the revelations given through Joseph (gathering, consecration, building the Storehouse), will we truly see persecution.
volgadon Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 How about you wait until your people are herded in ghettos in country after country, 6 million of your number are systematically slaughtered, and literally millions around the world believe you are the cause of all the evil in the world, before you start comparing your "plight" to the Jewish nation?Just a thought.You are not persecuted.You seem to forget that we were beaten, raped, robbed, murdered and driven out of our homes on many ocassions. We were portrayed as scheming to take over the world by violence, we have been accused of human sacrifice, of uncontrollable lust towards women and standing in opposition to good and true values. I have both LDS and Jewish ancestors. While thankfully LDS haven't been persecuted as badly as Jews have, we've not been around that long and even though the current climate is more-or-less favourable, it has the potential to become a lot worse. Increasing tolerance and reducing bigotry is a good thing. If you want a good example, look at the golden age of German Jewry from the late 19th century to the 1930s, look at what came before and what followed it. 4
CASteinman Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 (edited) You are not persecuted.You are wrong. Probably a habit.** I would remove this or edit it, but I have been informed that such action is board disruption. Edited June 12, 2012 by CASteinman
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 (edited) You are wrong. Probably a habit.Edit: Unnecessary provocation on my part. My apologies. Edited June 12, 2012 by BookofMormonLuvr
ERayR Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 The fact that multiple millions literally believe Jews are the root of all evil in the world is not a thing of the past.You guys crack me up, you are doing exactly what the article say and you don't even see it. Makes for great comic theater.Lest I be accused of persecuting you... I have had to tell my own people the same things.When we start REALLY obeying the revelations given through Joseph (gathering, consecration, building the Storehouse), will we truly see persecution.You didn't pay attention. I said it was sarcasm. There are those that tell us what I posted. They say the Jews are no longer persecuted. They say Mormons are no longer persecuted when neither is correct. Persecution is persecution wherever it comes from and in whatever form it is displayed. It is never pleasant to endure.
CASteinman Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 And you have nothing valuable to contribute. Probably a habit.Again you are wrong. I have my opinion and sense of things to contribute. And that is valuable.
ERayR Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 You seem to forget that we were beaten, raped, robbed, murdered and driven out of our homes on many ocassions. We were portrayed as scheming to take over the world by violence, we have been accused of human sacrifice, of uncontrollable lust towards women and standing in opposition to good and true values. I have both LDS and Jewish ancestors. While thankfully LDS haven't been persecuted as badly as Jews have, we've not been around that long and even though the current climate is more-or-less favourable, it has the potential to become a lot worse. Increasing tolerance and reducing bigotry is a good thing. If you want a good example, look at the golden age of German Jewry from the late 19th century to the 1930s, look at what came before and what followed it.I'm out of rep points but your post certainly deserves a few. Thank you.
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