Has "Self-Abuse" Gone The Way Of Birth Control?

[blooit]

I serve in young men's and work with youth as part of my profession. I also have a large family. I struggle with how to counsel kids who may be struggling with issues of masturbation. (Yes - I know that only bishops counsel youth on issues of morality.) I also realize simply mentioning the term could cause replies that get this post locked, but I'm hoping for a mature discussion (maybe unrealistically).

Quite simply, my issue is this:

This "transgression" was treated very seriously when I was young. I know of cases where it actually resulted in excommunication (although not among teens). It is rarely addressed or discussed today, and rarely disciplined, at least among youth. I wonder at times how strongly I should address this issue in my own family. At times wonder if it has (like birth control), been a cultural issue that has or will fade away, although in an earlier stage than birth control. The seriousness of this issue seems to vary greatly from ward to ward, or priesthood holder to priesthood holder. I frankly don't know how adamantly to teach against this with my own kids.

[cinepro]

Uh...excommunication? Seriously?

That would have to be the dumbest church court ever.

As to the issue at hand, I think it is turning into a "don't ask/don't tell" situation. It will be a while before it totally fades away (old ideas fade slowly when leadership is a factor of age and moral conservatism), but I suspect LDS 75 years from now will be incredulous that it was ever an issue.

Edited May 21, 2012 by cinepro

[Log]

Yeahhh, I'ma' callin' CFR on that one.

[volgadon]

Kind of hard to CFR something in this case, as he is the reference.

[blooit]

I am familiar with two "cases" but both are hearsay. That's not important to me, but I think it is self evident that it was treated more seriously even 20-30 years ago.

[Calm]

I imagine that porn was likely also involved if it did result in an actual excommunication.

As to how you should be teaching it, wouldn't it be best to take that to the Lord if as you say it isn't as clear cut as you would like?

[Log]

I imagine that porn was likely also involved if it did result in an actual excommunication.

And a sealing. That I could buy.

[CASteinman]

This "transgression" was treated very seriously when I was young. I know of cases where it actually resulted in excommunication (although not among teens). It is rarely addressed or discussed today, and rarely disciplined, at least among youth. I wonder at times how strongly I should address this issue in my own family. At times wonder if it has (like birth control), been a cultural issue that has or will fade away, although in an earlier stage than birth control. The seriousness of this issue seems to vary greatly from ward to ward, or priesthood holder to priesthood holder. I frankly don't know how adamantly to teach against this with my own kids.

I honestly do not know the answer. And I hate replying to posts with that sort of thing and normally would just take a pass. But in this case, that other people do not know the answer is probably helpful to you in a certain way.

I have come to this view on it: Masturbation is not exceptionally evil, but it is impure in a variety of ways. It involves impure thoughts -- not in a passing way -- but in a focused way. Immersing yourself in those thoughts is just unholy. In addition, in our modern times, even as we discuss it less, I think it actually has become more dangerous because of the potential motivation to involve yourself in porn -- which is both evil and at least for some people, addictive. I believe porn is a blight and ruins lives -- both of the people who produce it and the people who consume it. And masturbation may lead one to seek it out. So I actually think it is more dangerous than ever before.

I have never really discussed this with my children and it has never come up. I don't think I am really interested in discussing it with them either! But, if it should come up, I believe I would say something to the effect of this: There are lots and lots of ways to prevent yourself from having the spirit, from feeling worthy and from having the holy Ghost. Lots of ways. And some ways are better at keeping you from being close to the spirit than others -- and everyone has their own challenges. Every person will face problems and weaknesses to overcome -- and we need to resist all things that can hurt us. But it may take time for us to become perfect. Don't be too hard on yourself, but don't give yourself a break either to just give in to temptation. It is better if you can avoid this because it can hurt your spirituality and possibly your marriage. But it can also hurt your spirituality to expect perfection in yourself too quickly. Do your best and ask God to help you. If you feel you are sinking into a hole, there are lots of people who can help you and I am one of them. It may feel shameful to be caught up in such things, but remember: Everyone has weaknesses and this is really just another one.

something like that.

[blooit]

The woman who wrote Secret Ceremonies claimed that she was exed for that reason too IIRC... but that isn't much of a reference.

[blooit]

I honestly do not know the answer. And I hate replying to posts with that sort of thing and normally would just take a pass. But in this case, that other people do not know the answer is probably helpful to you in a certain way.

I have come to this view on it: Masturbation is not exceptionally evil, but it is impure in a variety of ways. It involves impure thoughts -- not in a passing way -- but in a focused way. Immersing yourself in those thoughts is just unholy. In addition, in our modern times, even as we discuss it less, I think it actually has become more dangerous because of the potential motivation to involve yourself in porn -- which is both evil and at least for some people, addictive. I believe porn is a blight and ruins lives -- both of the people who produce it and the people who consume it. And masturbation may lead one to seek it out. So I actually think it is more dangerous than ever before.

I have never really discussed this with my children and it has never come up. I don't think I am really interested in discussing it with them either! But, if it should come up, I believe I would say something to the effect of this: There are lots and lots of ways to prevent yourself from having the spirit, from feeling worthy and from having the holy Ghost. Lots of ways. And some ways are better at keeping you from being close to the spirit than others -- and everyone has their own challenges. Every person will face problems and weaknesses to overcome -- and we need to resist all things that can hurt us. But it may take time for us to become perfect. Don't be too hard on yourself, but don't give yourself a break either to just give in to temptation. It is better if you can avoid this because it can hurt your spirituality and possibly your marriage. But it can also hurt your spirituality to expect perfection in yourself too quickly. Do your best and ask God to help you. If you feel you are sinking into a hole, there are lots of people who can help you and I am one of them. It may feel shameful to be caught up in such things, but remember: Everyone has weaknesses and this is really just another one.

something like that.

Very insightful. Thank you.

[Tarski]

It involves impure thoughts -- not in a passing way -- but in a focused way. Immersing yourself in those thoughts is just unholy.

I can't imagine why one might think that thoughts of sexual relations with the opposite sex of one's own species would be "impure". Very odd!

Those thoughts just will happen anyway -and with some considerable force--unless one is suffering libido loss because of hormone imbalance or something. It is as natural and inevitable as gravity for a healthy mind.

But let me play into this premise a little and ask this:

What if the impure thoughts are about having sex with one's spouse??

A variation: Suppose, ones spouse is on a long trip. Then what?

Another: Suppose one is thinking back fondly about relations with a spouse that has passed away. Is this obviously evil? (I think obviously not)

In what way would such thoughts be "impure"?

Edited May 21, 2012 by Tarski

[Log]

Gee, Tarski, with your view on religious matters, it's hard to believe you would claim to imagine anything as being impure - whether it be thought or act - since it's a religious concept in this context. So, why don't you first spell out your personal view on purity?

Edited May 21, 2012 by Log

[why me]

I serve in young men's and work with youth as part of my profession. I also have a large family. I struggle with how to counsel kids who may be struggling with issues of masturbation. (Yes - I know that only bishops counsel youth on issues of morality.) I also realize simply mentioning the term could cause replies that get this post locked, but I'm hoping for a mature discussion (maybe unrealistically).

Quite simply, my issue is this:

This "transgression" was treated very seriously when I was young. I know of cases where it actually resulted in excommunication (although not among teens). It is rarely addressed or discussed today, and rarely disciplined, at least among youth. I wonder at times how strongly I should address this issue in my own family.

I would perhaps just ignore it. Of course, a father or a mother can talk about sex and chasity and generally cover it in a kind and loving way without fire and brimstone. But at the end of the day, teenagers have their own free will. I wouldn't be a heavy with masturbation. Much better to stress the problems with premarital sex, ie, unwanted pregnancy, STDs, breaking the law of chasity etc.

[Tarski]

Gee, Tarski, with your view on religious matters, it's hard to believe you would claim to imagine anything as being impure - whether it be thought or act - since it's a religious concept in this context. So, why don't you first spell out your personal view on purity?

You are right that I don't buy into the impure thought idea (if anything, I think the avoidance of sexual ideation is wrong). But I am trying to pose a thought experiment from within the Mormon mind set. Would even a Mormon be able to explain the impure thought rationale for avoiding "self abuse" in the cases I imagined? Wherein lies the impurity?

Edited May 21, 2012 by Tarski

[Log]

You are right that I don't buy into the impure thought idea (if anything, I think the avoidance of sexual ideation is wrong). But I am trying to pose a thought experiment from within the Mormon mind set. Would even a Mormon be able to explain the impure thought rationale for avoiding "self abuse" in the cases I imagined? Wherein lies the impurity?

I see. You're laying traps whilst slumming from your normal haunt.

I think an appropriate response might be "I may not be able to define impurity with sufficient verbal precision to satisfy a hostile atheistic audience, but I know it when I see it."

Edited May 21, 2012 by Log

[Storm Rider]

In our home growing up the dining table was used for all types of conversation and it was a safe place. No questions were taboo and mom and dad could ask each of us as much as we could as of them. I had never even heard about masturbation until we moved to the south; when I heard about it in the 7th grade I asked my folks about it at the dinner table. They talked to me about what in a straight forward manner and then they talked about the need to master our passions. It was clear to all of us kids that some people masturbated, but that it was a way of not being in control of our bodies. There was no condemnation and it just became something that we learned from our folks.

In our ward our Aaronic priesthood holders are taught that to exercise their priesthood in the Sacrament, they must be clean both physcially and spiritually. Masturbation is not a practice that purifies the spirit and it does disqualify someone from participating.

Human sexuality is a practice that takes two people. To go solo just defeats the purpose. Tarski, I suspect you might not be passing the Sacrament this week.

[CASteinman]

I can't imagine why one might think that thoughts of sexual relations with the opposite sex of one's own species would be "impure". Very odd!

Well, that's how it is, regardless of your capacity for imagination.

What if the impure thoughts are about having sex with one's spouse??

A variation: Suppose, ones spouse is on a long trip. Then what?

Another: Suppose one is thinking back fondly about relations with a spouse that has passed away. Is this obviously evil? (I think obviously not)

In what way would such thoughts be "impure"?

:::Shrug::: I don't know. Maybe not. I am not going to spend time worrying about this sort of thing or what other people are doing. The goal is to have a pure heart and a pure mind to be able to have the Spirit. If something interferes with that, its not so good. If it does not, I am not able or willing to judge other people on the matter.

It does not change the fact that masturbation causes many guys to feel ashamed and dirty -- even in our supposedly "modern" time. Those feelings are not helpful. I also believe that it promotes use of pornography and that is just totally bad.

[cinepro]

And does anyone know where the odd euphemism "self-abuse" came from? Because I would hate for someone to be accused of "spousal abuse" on the same account...

Edited May 21, 2012 by cinepro

[Tarski]

It does not change the fact that masturbation causes many guys to feel ashamed and dirty -- even in our supposedly "modern" time.

They woudn't feel dirty if they hadn't been taught an ethic of shame regarding the whole topic.

In fact, I know of plenty of secular folks that by all acounts feel no such shame.

And of course, I don't. It is really hard to understand.

Conversly, I am familiar with more than once instance of a Mormon girl that still felt shame in a sex act even after marriage.

The point is that the shame is plausibly engendered by the religious culture.

The shame connection is insidious but thankfully quite remote from me.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Tarski

[Log]

They woudn't feel dirty if they hadn't been taught an ethic of shame regarding the whole topic.

This fascinating assertion really does call for a suitable proof. CFR. Or shall it be dismissed, as it was asserted, without evidence?

In fact, I know of plenty of secular folks that by all acounts feel no such shame.

And of course, I don't. It is really hard to understand.

Of course.

The shame connection is insideous but thankfully quite remote from me.

Whom or what, pray tell, would you be thanking for that?

Edited May 21, 2012 by Log

[Tarski]

Of course.

You make a comparison with murder.

wow

Once again I thank my lucky stars.

[Log]

You make a comparison with murder.

wow

Once again I thank my lucky stars.

I would compare you directly with a more contemporary example of your avowed ideological companions who likewise felt no shame in what he did to his erstwhile companions, but I am satisfied you would hit the "report" button as fast as your openmindedness would allow your fingers to fly. As you actively preach the dogma he relied on to deaden his conscience in the commission of his dirty deeds, maybe you had ought to do less than thank your lucky stars - such as not opposing the Church's teachings on purity.

Or by not opposing the Church at all.

Unless you like the forseeable future, and historically documented, consequences of your positions being adopted by the general population.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Log

[Tarski]

I would compare you directly with a more contemporary example of your avowed ideological companions who likewise felt no shame in what he did to his erstwhile lovers, but I am satisfied you would hit the "report" button as fast as your openmindedness would allow your fingers to fly. As you actively preach the dogma he relied on to deaden his conscience in the commission of his dirty deeds, maybe you had ought to do less than thank your lucky stars - such as not opposing the Church's teachings on purity.

Or by not opposing the Church at all.

.

Oh yes. I recall now. You are the one obsessed with Jeffrey Dahmer. LOL

Now you mean to imply (not too subtly for those who are familiar with you) that failure to condemn masturbation with the same ferocity one condemns murder will lead to eating people.

Unless you like the forseeable future, and historically documented, consequences of your positions being adopted by the general population

Too late. My position on this topic is that of the general population. Watch a few Seinfeld episodes to get a feel for where modern culture already is and has been for some time. Actually, attitudes are cyclic and there have off and on been more sexually liberated attitudes in the distant past in both Christian Europe and in antiquity.

But for you George Castanza = Jeffrey Dahmer.

(whacky)

Putting you on ignore might be a reasonable option for a rational soul like my own.

[Log]

Oh yes. I recall now. You are the one obsessed with Jeffrey Dahmer. LOL

Now you mean to imply (not too subtly for those who are familiar with you) that failure to condemn masturbation with the same ferocity one condemns murder will lead to eating people.

I mean to imply that advocating atheism has, as a documented historical fact, ended up with a great many millions of people being murdered - all without shame, even. History, you see, is an excellent predictor of the future - so say insurance companies, anyways - so it would seem your concern is not so much with the welfare of humanity, as you like to style it as being, but rather with dominating those whom you view as your intellectual inferiors.

Too late. My position on this topic is that of the general population.

I guess reading "your positions" as "this topic" is par for the course.

Putting you on ignore might be a reasonable option for a rational soul like my own.

Excellent!

Edited May 21, 2012 by Log

[CASteinman]

They woudn't feel dirty if they hadn't been taught an ethic of shame regarding the whole topic.

You are incorrect. The shame occurs even among boys who are not taught such things.

In fact, I know of plenty of secular folks that by all acounts feel no such shame.

Uh huh. You obviously have many fascinating conversations coupled with mind reading skills.

I won't be replying to you any longer.