livy111us Posted May 2, 2012 Author Posted May 2, 2012 That wasn't the scholar's problem, if you re-read post #3 in this thread - they object to any claim that there could be a non-native source for AmerIndian culture. They view the notion that other cultures might have informed the AmerIndian cultures as something like cultural imperialism, which, in this context, is a claim akin to racism.I don't see any inaccuracies with my original statement.
Log Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 The heartland theory is irrelevant to the scholars' problem. So why bring it up? It only obscures what their real problem is.
livy111us Posted May 2, 2012 Author Posted May 2, 2012 The heartland theory is irrelevant to the scholars' problem. So why bring it up? It only obscures what their real problem is.That is the entire premise of the movie, the heartland theory. The Hopewell=Nephites. I have also been personally told numerous times that these non-LDS scholars support the heartland theory.
Bob Crockett Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 I'm disappointed. Your Messenger and Advocate cite is to a piece by Oliver Cowdery, with which we are familiar.
DWhitmer Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 I'm disappointed. Your Messenger and Advocate cite is to a piece by Oliver Cowdery, with which we are familiar.Why disappointed?
Bob Crockett Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 Why disappointed?Your post said Joseph Smith identified the hill as such, but this is an Oliver Cowdery piece. This crowd won't accept this source.
DWhitmer Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 Your post said Joseph Smith identified the hill as such, but this is an Oliver Cowdery piece. This crowd won't accept this source.J.Smith was Oliver's source.
Bob Crockett Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 I agree with you, but this particular source has been vetted by the MesoAmerican crowd into irrelevancy. 1
DWhitmer Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) I agree with you, but this particular source has been vetted by the MesoAmerican crowd into irrelevancy."Vetted" I have not seen, ignore, of course. Here it is for others:"...we have thought that a full history of the rise of the church of the Latter Day Saints, and the most interesting parts of its progress, to the present time, would be worthy the perusal of the Saints.-If circumstances admit, an article on this subject will appear in each subsequent No. of the Messenger and Advocate, until the time when the church was driven from Jackson Co. Mo. by a lawless banditti; & such other remarks as may be thought appropriate and interesting.That our narrative may be correct, and particularly the introduction, it is proper to inform our patrons, that our brother J. SMITH jr. has offered to assist us." (LATTER DAY SAINTS' MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE, Volume I. No. 1. KIRTLAND, OHIO, OCTOBER, 1834 p. 12)You're right, they could care less how many G.A.'s have confirmed that the final battle was in Palmyra, or that J.Smith did identify the hill, after both Moroni and another Nephite told Whitmer, Cowdery, and Smith. They will obfuscate to save face.You are being rude. If you make a controversial claim on this board and are asked to document it you must do it if you want to stay in the thread. Edited May 2, 2012 by Minos
rodheadlee Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) The final battle may have been in Palmyra. But if Zerahemla and all the Nephite cities were in upstate NY why is there no mention of bitter cold winters?, short growing seasons? having battles in snow? Edited May 2, 2012 by rodheadlee 1
Log Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) But if Zerahemla and all the Nephite cities were in upstate NY why is there no mention of bitter cold winters?, short growing seasons? having battles in snow?Don't confuse us with facts. Edited May 2, 2012 by Log
Bob Crockett Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 The final battle may have been in Palmyra. But if Zerahemla and all the Nephite cities were in upstate NY why is there no mention of bitter cold winters?, short growing seasons? having battles in snow?Most of the Book of Mormon was heavily edited. I'm not confused by the facts nor trying to confuse anybody with the facts. The simple fact instead is that the location of the Hill Cumorah, as opposed to all other name places in the Book of Mormon, is a revealed fact.
Log Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 The simple fact instead is that the location of the Hill Cumorah, as opposed to all other name places in the Book of Mormon, is a revealed fact.Has God revealed it to you?
cinepro Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) The final battle may have been in Palmyra. But if Zerahemla and all the Nephite cities were in upstate NY why is there no mention of bitter cold winters?, short growing seasons? having battles in snow?Mormon's "Farmer's Almanac" is in the sealed portion. When that comes forth, we will then have the seasonal weather patterns, tide tables and horoscopes for the Nephite culture.Until then, we just won't know. Edited May 2, 2012 by cinepro
DWhitmer Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 The final battle may have been in Palmyra. But if Zerahemla and all the Nephite cities were in upstate NY why is there no mention of bitter cold winters?, short growing seasons? having battles in snow?That's the weakest argument for these reasons:1.Don't judge the past by the present. 2. There was no snow in the winter on true BoM lands in western New York only 200 years ago.3. There currently is no snow in the winter in Jaredite lands in western New York right now.4. You must have a cold and flu season:seasons of the year ..nature of the climate— (Alma 46:40)5. The only heat reference is when armies wore "thick skins" when they battled. Ever fought wearing thick animal skins? Plenty "hot."6. To disregard fulfilled land prophecies instead of respecting them is cowardice.Most of the Book of Mormon was heavily edited. The simple fact instead is that the location of the Hill Cumorah, as opposed to all other name places in the Book of Mormon, is a revealed fact.Ditto.Has God revealed it to you?DumbfoundedMormon's "Farmer's Almanac" is in the sealed portion. When that comes forth, we will then have the seasonal weather patterns, tide tables and horoscopes for the Nephite culture. Until then, we just won't know.True!
Log Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 DumbfoundedSimple question - has God revealed, TO YOU, that the hill Ramah / Cumorah referenced in the Book of Mormon is in New York State?If not, you have no grounds for asserting that it is a revealed fact.
DWhitmer Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 Simple question - has God revealed, TO YOU...If not, you have no grounds for asserting that it is a revealed fact.It's mute for you as you would not accept his testimony. Tell us which revelator you do trust and I'll get you quote.
Bob Crockett Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) Has God revealed it to you?I don't think that is a fair request to make of me, whether God has answered my prayers in a particular way. My posts above are fairly adequate on the grounds for the assertion that the location of the HIll Cumorah is a "revealed fact." I'm somewhat averse to repeating myself if you don't want to comment upon the authorities (the First Presidency, various members of the 12, the way Sorenson's piece was edited) that I have provided.How significant to you is it that the First Presidency has spoken on the topic in general conference, saying that the location of the final battle is in New York?If not, you have no grounds for asserting that it is a revealed fact. What an odd statement to make, in a religion that believes in revealed fact. A revealed fact is something revealed by God that can't be necessarily proved by scientific means, such as: Moroni appearing to Joseph Smith; Joseph Smith given the gold plates by God; Elijah appearing and restoring the keys of the priesthood. These are "revealed" in the sense that they depend upon the metaphysical for existence, like the revealed fact that the Hill Cumorah (and not some diminutive drumlin) is the location of old Cumorah and Ramah. People who say that the "revealed fact" cannot possibly be true because there is no evidence of slaughtered thousands at the foot of the hill are using tapwater to dash the fires of the Spirit. Edited May 2, 2012 by Bob Crockett
Calm Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 <div>Ever fought wearing thick animal skins? Plenty "hot."You speak from personal experience?</div>
thesometimesaint Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 DWitmer:But it is always the silly season for some.
DWhitmer Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 But it is always the silly season for some.True. I am unashamed of being a true follower of the Book of Mormon and I have to come in here and school Mormons on what their leaders had emphatically stated, as iterated by Crockett. What is more silly than those claiming to be staunch Mormons who ignore and mock statements by their founder and other Mormon prophets?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 True. I am unashamed of being a true follower of the Book of Mormon ..Oh, here it comes folks. You are not a true believer unless you believe in the geography as DWhitmer does. 1
thesometimesaint Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 DWhitmer:I don't see much mocking here. Gentle disagreements at worst. To be precise the Church takes no position on where the main events of the Book of Mormon took place. Circumstantial evidence from the BoM itself suggests Mesoamerica as the location. JS himself seems to be undecided to leanng towards Mesoamerica as its location as published in the Times and Seasons.
DWhitmer Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 I find it odd that when the United States is burning, the Mormon Church refuses to force all its CES employees to return to the original geographical premise and to solidify its support of America, instead of allowing its employess to geographically fight against Zion.Any minute now, Romney critics will be using the anti-American statements by early church leaders to attack Mormons, and with their exclusive interest in Mesoamerica for where the BoM took place, it will be interesting to see how the church reacts.
Log Posted May 2, 2012 Posted May 2, 2012 I don't think that is a fair request to make of me.I think it is. My posts above are fairly adequate on the grounds for the assertion that the location of the HIll Cumorah is a "revealed fact." No, they're not.How significant to you is it that the First Presidency has spoken on the topic in general conference, saying that the location of the final battle is in New York?Insignificant, without personal revelation affirming it.What an odd statement to make, in a religion that believes in revealed fact.What an odd way to avoid the question - you don't know it to be a revealed fact because you have not had it revealed to you.
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