Non-Lds Scholars Debunk Meldrum

[DWhitmer]

We visited the Hill Cumorah and were accorded the courtesy of going thereon by the wife of Mr. George Sampson, a brother of Admiral Wm. Sampson, who before his death owned the property. When we went up there and looked around, we felt that we were standing on holy ground. The brethren located, as near as they thought was possible, the place from which the plates of the Book of Mormon were taken by the Prophet. We were delighted to be there. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill. Evidence of the great battles that have been fought there in days gone by are manifest in the numerous spear and arrow-heads that have been found by farmers while plowing in that neighborhood. We were fortunate enough to obtain a few of the arrowheads. (George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, Third Day—Morning Session p. 56)

Edited May 2, 2012 by DWhitmer

[Log]

The endless piling up of citations from GAs is completely beside the point.

[Scott Lloyd]

Any minute now, Romney critics will be using the anti-American statements by early church leaders to attack Mormons, ...

What "anti-American statements by early church leaders"? If you mean opposition to some of the politicians of the day, that's not anti-American. Vigorous criticism of whatever political administration or party happens to be in power is as American as as fireworks on July 4.

... and with their exclusive interest in Mesoamerica for where the BoM took place, it will be interesting to see how the church reacts.

Why would Romney critics care about theories regarding Book of Mormon locales when they don't believe the book is authentic in the first place? You're talking gibberish.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Bob Crockett]

The endless piling up of citations from GAs is completely beside the point.

Well, they are almost endless.

[DWhitmer]

The endless piling up of citations from GAs is completely beside the point.

Another by Cowdery who verified the correct meaning of DC 128 saying:

"This Book, which contained these things, was hid in the earth by Moroni, in a hill called by him, Cumorah, which hill is now in the State of New York, near the village of Palmyra, in Ontario County. (Parley P. Pratt, Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, edited by his son, Parley P. Pratt, Deseret Book, 1985 (originally published 1888), pp. 42-45)

[DWhitmer]

What "anti-American statements by early church leaders"? If you mean opposition to some of the politicians of the day, that's not anti-American. Vigorous criticism...Why would Romney critics care about theories regarding Book of Mormon locales...

I assure you, they are far beyond that, and no I won't be the one to cite them. I like Romney for President and pray every day for his success. If you know Bible prophecy (and BoM prophecy) you'd appreciate the second half of my statement, which would derail the thread to explain.

[DWhitmer]

Well, they are almost endless.

And they've been obscured, never reprinted:

"Third, the hill from which the Book of Mormon plates were obtained by Joseph Smith is definitely known. In the days of the Prophet this hill was known among the people as Cumorah. This is a fixed point in Book of Mormon later history. There is a controversy, however, about the Hill Cumorah-not about the location where the Book of Mormon plates were found, but whether it is the hill under that name near which Nephite events took place. A name, says one, may be applied to more than one hill; and plates containing the records of a people, sacred things, could be moved from place to place by divine help.

However, the hill known today as Cumorah in northern New York is a fixed, known point. (John A. Widstoe, A Book of Mormon Treasury: Selections from the Pages of the Improvement Era, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1959, p. 128)

[DWhitmer]

“I do not believe that there were two Hill Cumorahs, one in Central America, and the other one in New York, for the convenience of the Prophet Joseph Smith, so that the poor boy would not have to walk clear to Central America to get the gold plates.” (Mark E. Peterson, The Improvement Era, June 1953, p. 423; "123 Annual Conference of the Church," April 4-6, 1953, General Conference Report, pp. 83-84)

[thesometimesaint]

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/search/?fulltext=Book+of+Mormon+lands+&search=Go

[Anijen]

4. You must have a cold and flu season:

Tell me you are not serious? These are the reasons that cold is not mentioned in the Book of Mormon and are the weakest arguments? Pitiful scholarship. It least try to have a persuasive argument rather than dismiss the reason so out of hand.

2. There was no snow in the winter on true BoM lands in western New York only 200 years ago.

Wrong again or it least impossible to prove. Other than some NOAA hurricane reports, there are no snow reports for upstate New York 200 years ago.

3. There currently is no snow in the winter in Jaredite lands in western New York right now.

It is not Winter time in New York either.

5. The only heat reference is when armies wore "thick skins" when they battled. Ever fought wearing thick animal skins? Plenty "hot."

Not true.

6. To disregard fulfilled land prophecies instead of respecting them is cowardice.

What fulfilled land properties are you talking about? This is a CFR Edited May 2, 2012 by Jeff Holt

[Anijen]

Another by Cowdery who verified the correct meaning of DC 128 saying:

"This Book, which contained these things, was hid in the earth by Moroni, in a hill called by him, Cumorah, which hill is now in the State of New York, near the village of Palmyra, in Ontario County. (Parley P. Pratt, Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, edited by his son, Parley P. Pratt, Deseret Book, 1985 (originally published 1888), pp. 42-45)

No argument. Moroni after traveling approximately 36 years hid them in that hill in upstate New York for Joseph Smith to retrieve later.

Besides a careful reading of this in no way suggests it is the same hill where the last battle was fought.

[Bob Crockett]

Besides a careful reading of this in no way suggests it is the same hill where the last battle was fought.

There are too many quotes that say exactly that.

I'm curious at this point. Why is it so necessary to move Cumorah to central America? Why so much argument and debate over the subject, to the point Joseph Fielding Smith calls such moving Cumorah advocates faithless? What is to be gained? Why not just say -- hey, it doesn't really matter one way or the other?

[DWhitmer]

Here's the "no snow" on Book of Mormon lands in western New York 200 years ago:

"We have already observed that the Cat Nation [Erie, NY] is so called from the large number of Wildcats, of great size and beauty in their country. The climate is temperate, neither ice nor snow being seen in the winter; while in the summer it is said that grain and fruit are harvested in abundance, and are of unusual size and excellence." (Arthur Caswell Parker, “The Archeological History of New York,” vol. 1, New State Museum Bulletin, Nos. 235, 236, July-August 1920, p. 275)

Here's the reference for no snow present time on BoM land areas of western New York:

"In contrast to the tremendous snowfall amounts to the east of the lakes is the lack of snow in parts of Niagara and Orleans counties which are located to the north of Buffalo. This area does not normally get much snow off Lake Erie or Lake Ontario, mainly because it is not downwind of the longer fetch across each body of water." (Average Seasonal Snowfall Over the Eastern Great Lakes Region; Chris Cappella, "Answers: 10 snowiest 'cities' aren't all in New York," 10/2/2003, USATODAY.com; The Truth About Snow in Buffalo)

No argument. Moroni after traveling approximately 36 years hid them in that hill in upstate New York for Joseph Smith to retrieve later. Besides a careful reading of this in no way suggests it is the same hill where the last battle was fought.

I'll take apostle Peterson's testimony of your flimsy resistance any time. Think of whose company you are keeping by continually resisting the facts? Sad.

Edited May 2, 2012 by DWhitmer

[Log]

I'll take apostle Peterson's testimony of your flimsy resistance any time.

Do you have a testimony of Peterson's testimony?

[DWhitmer]

I'm curious at this point. Why is it so necessary to move Cumorah to central America? Why so much argument and debate over the subject, to the point Joseph Fielding Smith calls such moving Cumorah advocates faithless? What is to be gained? Why not just say -- hey, it doesn't really matter one way or the other?

Because BoM lands had specific boundaries where prophecy can be fulfilled. You'll notice that Mesotheorists avoid where land prophecies were fulfilled like they were the plague. Not only are they betraying the Land of Promise, they are confusing the entire field of Book of Mormon believers and investigators. Nothing they do or have done has strengthened the Book of Mormon, and they have provided ample ammunition to th enemy.

The better thing to do is like Fergueson, admit the error, that those ruins are not BoM related, and to stand by the fulfilled prophecies and the lands where THOSE TOOK PLACE. Then, you won't offend God and every BoM prophet who died to secure that record!

Edited May 2, 2012 by DWhitmer

[DWhitmer]

Do you have a testimony of Peterson's testimony?

Nice dodge, for each resistance I have provided evidence and still you are incapable of admitting defeat. Have some dignity.

[Bob Crockett]

Because BoM lands had specific boundaries where prophecy can be fulfilled. You'll notice that Mesotheorists avoid where land prophecies were fulfilled like they were the plague. Not only are they betraying the Land of Promise, they are confusing the entire field of Book of Mormon believers and investigators. Nothing they do or have done has strengthened the Book of Mormon, and they have provided ample ammunition to th enemy.

The better thing to do is like Fergueson, admit the error, that those ruins are not BoM related, and to stand by the fulfilled prophecies and the lands where THOSE TOOK PLACE. Then, you won't offend God and every BoM prophet who died to secure that record!

I don't believe for a minute that the United States has any favored treatment under the Book of Mormon. The American continent, yes; but not the United States. We've fought this battle before with Elder George P. Lee. The promises to the Lamanites extend from Tierra del Fuego to the Aleutians.

Nor should any of us expect that Mitt Romney, my second cousin, has any favored political status with the Lord. I'm voting for Obama.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Bob Crockett

[DWhitmer]

I don't believe for a minute that the United States has any favored treatment under the Book of Mormon. The American continent, yes; but not the United States. We've fought this battle before with Elder George P. Lee. The promises to the Lamanites extend from Tierra del Fuego to the Aleutians.

Nor should any of us expect that Mitt Romney, my second cousin, has any favored political status with the Lord. I'm voting for Obama.

It has some to do with the Lamanites, but the LDS prophetic view of them is off. The prophecies you should acknowledge are pertaining to Gentiles fleeing the whore and coming to BoM lands and establishing a new government, jointly with the Lamanites. This already happened and no one should expect:

a. A New Jerusalem in Missouri.

b. Mexicans coming up across the border to punish the Gentiles.

C. Lamanites to rush forth and help build a N.J. in Missouri.

When you understand that, you'll start looking UP for the rapture, not to SLC for "when are going to Missouri" to build a N.J. before Jesus could return. But hey, "their minds are darkned for not following the BoM," so what would you expect??? No offense.

[Log]

Nice dodge, for each resistance I have provided evidence and still you are incapable of admitting defeat. Have some dignity.

This post of yours is itself a dodge.

Have you received revelation that the Hill Cumorah in New York is the hill Ramah / Cumorah referred to in the text of the Book of Mormon?

If you have not, then you have no grounds for asserting that identification to be a revealed fact, and are instead engaged in mere dogmatism.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

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Posted 40 minutes ago

DWhitmer, on 02 May 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

Another by Cowdery who verified the correct meaning of DC 128 saying:

"This Book, which contained these things, was hid in the earth by Moroni, in a hill called by him, Cumorah, which hill is now in the State of New York, near the village of Palmyra, in Ontario County. (Parley P. Pratt, Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, edited by his son, Parley P. Pratt, Deseret Book, 1985 (originally published 1888), pp. 42-45)

No argument. Moroni after traveling approximately 36 years hid them in that hill in upstate New York for Joseph Smith to retrieve later.

Besides a careful reading of this in no way suggests it is the same hill where the last battle was fought.

You missed something. "In a hill called by him, Cumorah, which hill is now in the state of New York". This statement suggests that it was not always in New York.

[Log]

You missed something. "In a hill called by him, Cumorah, which hill is now in the state of New York". This statement suggests that it was not always in New York.

Um... because the land was not always the State of New York, you see. Just to forestall an obvious comeback.

[Minos]

Nice dodge, for each resistance I have provided evidence and still you are incapable of admitting defeat. Have some dignity.

Last warning.

You will be thread banned after the next insult.

[Bob Crockett]

When you understand that, you'll start looking UP for the rapture, not to SLC for "when are going to Missouri" to build a N.J. before Jesus could return. But hey, "their minds are darkned for not following the BoM," so what would you expect??? No offense.

No offense taken, but the Evangelical notion of the rapture is not scriptural. The earth will be cleansed of sinners and the righteous will be left behind for 1000 years.

[livy111us]

From DWhitmers website ""It is impossible for a Mormon to find the true geography since they are CONDEMNED." (D&C 84:54)"

You cannot argue with him because we are under the curse. He has broken free from the oppression of the Church to find true happiness in BOM geography, instead of the saving ordinances.

Regarding the inane statement that snow did not exist beyond 200 years ago in NE USA, I am curious how you would convince someone from the Great Lakes area that they don't get snow in the winter, especially since they are known for some of the most brutal, freezing winters in the entire country. This is an outlandish claim that is not so glaringly wrong that I should not even have to respond. You may remember last year (I believe, it may have been the year before) when cities had to be shut down due to the enormous amount of snow they got. If anyone has any doubt as to what the winters were like, just google "great lakes winter" and click on images. You will see something quite different than the above claim. Snow shoes have been found in archaeological digs in that area for crying out loud. Why would the ancient indians of the area need snow shoes and warm clothing if they did not have any snow?

“…a climactic trend toward cooler temperatures that began about 3,000 years ago and that in upland regions had an adverse effect on the wild plant and animal resources used by humans. It wasn’t until perhaps 800 A.D. that peoples from the upper Hudson began returning in any substantial numbers to their haunts in the uplands of southwestern Vermont.” The Original Vermonters: Native Inhabitants, Past and Present, William A. Haviland, Marjory W. Power, pg 131

So not only was it *not* warmer back then, it was actually colder than it is today.

[Bob Crockett]

I've been in the Great Lakes area many a time without snow.