The Church And The Gospel 'Relationship Of 2'

[Pandorian]

I am a former apostate who has been coming back into my testimony of the gospel and the church. During my time of apostasy I might have said some things around my son that are coming back to bite me.

I will admit that I said that I thought church was boring, but now I am finding it is what I make of it, and that I can get things from it. I also said that the church and the gospel were NOT related, and that the church was just another man made organization.

So today when we couldn't get my 14 yo to go to church he said, that he believed in the gospel, but the church is FALSE. So we reap what we sow and sow what we reap I guess. I now view the church as God's tool to spread the gospel to the earth and authorized to do the covenants, etc.

My wife says that the Church IS the Gospel, and the Gospel IS the Church, while I still have a view that they are separate but intricately intertwined with each other. The Gospel is the message, the Church is the messenger, I guess.

So any good resources on the connection between the Gospel and the Church. I am thinking Pullman in 84 gave a decent talk that said exactly how I felt, but that's been edited since then. I am not trying to stir up controversy by bringing that up, I am just looking for good resources for the connection between the two, or why they are one and the same thing.

[selek1]

Huh. I wish you good luck in your search.

The first (and only) thing that sprang to mind on reading your request was the old analogy about faith, works, and scissors.

When asked, "Which is more important in salvation- faith or works?", C.S. Lewis allegedly replied, "Which blade on a pair of scissors is more important?"

I think the analogy holds when discussing the Church and the Gospel. Like the blades on a pair of scissors, one is worthless without the other.

Unless the Church holds and teaches the true Gospel, everything we do is for naught.

And yet without the Priesthood authority and fellowship of the Church, the Gospel is only a snapshot of a fulness that the faithful cannot attain by themselves.

Edited April 23, 2012 by selek1

[volgadon]

There was a talk about this in general conference this April.

[DBMormon]

Awesome post. couple of things. Elder Hallstrom just gave a touching talk at conference on this very subject that I think your wife and son both would benefeit from. Just as you said they are separate but very much intertwined.

I also recommend the following talk, it helped me in a great way to better grasp the gospel. I wish you the absolute best. Life is an incredible journey with lots of Bumps. May he bless your every step of the way

http://byutv.org/wat...57-7000b9945468 - wonderful talk on grace and how the church helps us learn heaven

Hallstrom's talk - http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/converted-to-his-gospel-through-his-church?lang=eng

Edited April 23, 2012 by reelmormon

[rpn]

Given that the Church is an earthly endeavor, for the purposes of proclaiming the gospel, perfecting the saints, redeeming the dead, giving solace to the poor and needy --- all of which are unnecessary in heaven, it seems pretty easy to separate the church from the gospel. But the Church is the way the Lord has set up administering the gospel on earth.

If I were you, I'd be asking my son to talk about what he sees that gives him that perspective. You have some experience with where he is at, if you can get him to express it and move with you to search the scriptures in its resolution. IME, the desire to separate the two often revolves around the unChristlike, or sometimes just plain dumb things that are sometimes done and said by the mortals who God chooses to lead or the unkind things that peers can say and do. Although I have to admit that sometimes it can be simple laziness/selfishness/or maybe overwhelmedness since it can be hard work to do everything we are asked to do by our Church ---- often much easier to follow HIM claiming exemption from all the expectations that come with church membership.

[blackstrap]

14 years old do have such a good memory for things said by parents,unless those things include cleaning a room or doing the dishes.

[zerinus]

So any good resources on the connection between the Gospel and the Church. I am thinking Pullman in 84 gave a decent talk that said exactly how I felt, but that's been edited since then. I am not trying to stir up controversy by bringing that up, I am just looking for good resources for the connection between the two, or why they are one and the same thing.

The gospel is the plan of salvation. It is the doctrine, the theology of how men are saved. The Church is a group of people attempting to live by that theology or doctrine. It is the implementation or application of that doctrine in practice in the lives of men. The Church is built theologically on the gospel; the gospel is not built on the Church. The Church consists of a group of people. Where there are no people, there is no Church. The gospel is the theology, the doctrine on which that Church is built.

Edited April 23, 2012 by zerinus

[cinepro]

I highly recommend Elder Poelman's talk from 1984:

The Gospel and the Church

Some people complain that the talk was changed from its original version, but I'm convinced the changes were a clever tribute to George Orwell from the subtle and humorous folks in the Church media department.

[Maidservant]

The word "gospel" is relatively recent.

In the Old Testament, the idea of gospel as we think of it might have been out of place. What you have instead is God establishing his covenant with Abraham. The paradigm was covenant, not gospel. (So I say.)

In the New Testament, Jesus' original speaking, or at least the part we have in the New Testament, he would say that he had a message. His message was in direct engagement with the old covenant and was a message for those of the covenant AND for all. The 'message' has morphed linguistically, definitionally, paradigmatically, doctrinally, etc into "the gospel".

Fast forward through the ages of the development of Christianity, by whatever narrative one accepts, and . . .

Enter Joseph Smith and enter Jesus Christ's direction of the work in the Latter-days. We have something that is both built on the past (all pasts) and that may be a whole new animal, also.

While the bifurcation of what we know today into "the gospel" and "the church" may be common and even helpful in some ways (I've done it myself; and indeed, the Church itself uses these words and meanings), I'm not sure it's helpful in all ways and maybe not doctrinal nor inevitable. There are other ways to think of the latter-day work. Someone mentioned "the plan of salvation" (which I don't know we have record of ever coming out of Jesus' mouth per the New Testament--could be wrong?). But to talk about The Plan of Salvation is to say anything that is necessary or good for the happiness of the Father's children. So the "gospel" and "the church" (if there is a difference) and a lot of other things, all fall under this idea of the Plan of Happiness.

For me, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is authorized by Jesus Christ to administer covenants, or a covenant. I entered into a covenant with my Father and his servants when I participated in my baptism, and have taken upon me further covenants (or extension of my covenant) in the temple.

Is there found on the earth any other place where I can find an authorized covenant? There is not. I must go to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And indeed, the church is that covenant. I could even say "The Covenant of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", in my mind.

My faith is not about believing in Jesus Christ, per se, nor in believing he exists . . . my faith is in covenanting with Jesus Christ and keeping my covenants and permitting him to transform me through his covenant.

When I am at church or participating in the structures and duties of the church, I am in community with other brothers and sisters with the covenant and also I get to apply my covenant practically in that community. My covenants also have to do with family organization primarily, but outside of the family, my first opportunity to act covenant-ly is in participation in the Church. And why? Among other things so that the CHURCH can SPREAD so that ALL can have their COVENANTS. But the covenant is not with the church (I think), for me it is directly with my Father, and there is none between me and him as he teaches me, leads me, creates me.

The Fourth Article of Faith says that we must have faith in Jesus Christ, repent, and then be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost. If you want, you can think on faith and repentance as being the "gospel" portion; and the baptism and confirmation as the "church" portion. But it doesn't matter if you put it in those categories, they simply are all necessary.

What God has done has always had a temporal component. That is, as D & C says, all things are spiritual. However, when he gave covenants, he gave land, he gave children. In the latter-days, we have ward and stake boundaries. We have canning projects. We are supposed to have babies. We send hygiene kits. We do physical things (ceremonies) like baptisms and ordinations and sealings. The real God really likes the physical, the body, and has everything to do with that. So, the Church is the "physical" or "temporal" or "body" part of his covenant.

Maybe the spirit isn't the body and the body isn't the spirit. Or maybe that's just a paradigm and we have some other form. But ask the spirit if it likes being without the body; or the body without the spirit. They need each other. The church and the gospel can perhaps be thought of the same way.