144,000

[inquiringmind]

Who are the 144,000 mentioned in the book of Revelation?

It seems to be talking about the regathering of Israel--12,000 from each tribe--but is that literal (and will they be literal virgins)?

[TheSkepticChristian]

I don't think they are going to be literal virgins

[TheSkepticChristian]

or maybe it's a smaller number

[pcarthew]

I just been to Los Vegas I don't think you'll find 144,000 there.

[inquiringmind]

The Roman Catholics, The Eastern Orthodox, and the Anglicans all have convents and monasteries where you might find male and female virgins (though I think the 144, 000 are said to be men who have not known women--male virgins, like all unmarried Mormon men who keep the law of chastity are supposed to be.)

If the twelve tribes still exist, their whereabouts are known to God, and 12,000 are literally sealed from each tribe, I don't see why they couldn't be literal celibates.

I was just wondering if latter day revelation says anything about this one way or another?

Edited April 15, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Freedom]

The number represents, in my opinion, a priesthood quorum of righteous disciples. The tribes represent, of course, the covenant with Israel. the number is a symbolic reference to perfection. 12 x 12 x 1000.

[Ron Beron]

The Book of Revelation, rather than a Christian document is a Jewish apocalyptic text. John, therefore, saw the 144,000 as representative of 12,000 stalwart members of the 12 tribes of Israel which are committed to protect Israel and would be martyred for the same. The numbers are not literal, but symbolic and represent those who die for Jesus. In the Interpreters Bible it states,

4-8. The number of those sealed is given as a hundred and forty-four thousand, with twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. This is the total number of martyrs that must be completed before the prayers of those in heaven can be answered (cf. 6:11). More than likely John has used a Jewish source in which the saints are members of the Jewish nation from each of the twelve tribes. Whatever the source, he has allegorized the twelve tribes to signify the Christians, composed of every people and nation (cf. vs. 9; 5:9), who are the true Israel (cf. Jas. 1:1; I Pet. 1:1); more specifically, they symbolize the whole company of martyrs, as in 14:1, where the identification seems certain.

The exact order of the tribes in this list is not of great significance. In the O.T. there are at least nineteen different arrangements; that in Revelation does not agree with any one of them. There may be some symbolism involved in the heading of this roll by Judah, since the Christ was from this tribe (cf. 5:5). Although in all save possibly one of the O.T. lists the tribe of Dan is included, it is omitted from this one. Irenaeus, writing near the end of the second century, observed that this omission was due to the belief that the Antichrist was to come from the tribe of Dan (Against Heresies V. 30. 2). That such a tradition was current earlier is evident from a statement in Test. Dan 5:6 that Beliar, a form of the Antichrist, will come from this tribe. Furthermore, in Jewish tradition Dan came to be associated with that greatest of sins, idolatry, which was one of the marks of the Antichrist (cf. Judg. 18:30; Genesis Rabbah 43:2; Targ. Jer. I on Exod. 17:.

Furthermore, the number 144,000 represents a perfect square. The underlying idea indicates a census of the chosen people. The DSS, Scroll of the War uses a similar ratio. (IQM 2:1-4)

[ebeddoulos]

Who are the 144,000 mentioned in the book of Revelation?

It seems to be talking about the regathering of Israel--12,000 from each tribe--but is that literal (and will they be literal virgins)?

"Section 77

Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Hiram, Ohio, March 1832 (see History of the Church, 1:253–55). The Prophet wrote, “In connection with the translation of the Scriptures, I received the following explanation of the Revelation of St. John” (History of the Church, 1:253).

...

"Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?

A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of theFirstborn." (Doctrine and Covenants 77:Preface & 11)

[mfbukowski]

The Book of Revelation, rather than a Christian document is a Jewish apocalyptic text. John, therefore, saw the 144,000 as representative of 12,000 stalwart members of the 12 tribes of Israel which are committed to protect Israel and would be martyred for the same. The numbers are not literal, but symbolic and represent those who die for Jesus. In the Interpreters Bible it states,

Furthermore, the number 144,000 represents a perfect square. The underlying idea indicates a census of the chosen people. The DSS, Scroll of the War uses a similar ratio. (IQM 2:1-4)

Agreed- it is all symbolic. The city of Zion- if I recall, is also pictured as a cube if I am not mistaken in the Book of Revelations. I am sure someone will look it up for me.

I don't think it will be a literal cube.

[mfbukowski]

Furthermore, the number 144,000 represents a perfect square. The underlying idea indicates a census of the chosen people. The DSS, Scroll of the War uses a similar ratio. (IQM 2:1-4)

Well I looked it up after all. Revelation 21

¹⁰And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

¹¹Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

¹²And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

¹³On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

¹⁴And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

¹⁵And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

¹⁶And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

¹⁷And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

¹⁸And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

¹⁹And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

²⁰The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

²¹And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

²²And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

²³And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

[guitarist]

Agreed- it is all symbolic. The city of Zion- if I recall, is also pictured as a cube if I am not mistaken in the Book of Revelations. I am sure someone will look it up for me.

I don't think it will be a literal cube.

If one were to take it literally, 1 furlong = 220 yards, at 12,000 furlongs, that would be a city that was 1,500 miles long, wide & tall. Theoretically, the width & length could fit on the north american continent, but the height would be a bit problematic, not the least of which is the ISS (and a whole host of other satellites) would almost certainly collide with it on occasion.

This city cube would also be 512 million times larger than a borg cube... Were this a literal city, it sounds like we'd be pretty well able to defend ourselves if the borg were to decide to invade sector 001.

[Freedom]

This city cube would also be 512 million times larger than a borg cube... Were this a literal city, it sounds like we'd be pretty well able to defend ourselves if the borg were to decide to invade sector 001.

I don't want to rain on your parade but I think it is rather arrogant to suppose that the Earth is sector 001. This claim by the Federation is right up there with the flat earth at the center of all creation. And why do we always dump on the borg? I bet they get 100% home teaching and their retention rates are out of this world.

[mfbukowski]

If one were to take it literally, 1 furlong = 220 yards, at 12,000 furlongs, that would be a city that was 1,500 miles long, wide & tall. Theoretically, the width & length could fit on the north american continent, but the height would be a bit problematic, not the least of which is the ISS (and a whole host of other satellites) would almost certainly collide with it on occasion.

This city cube would also be 512 million times larger than a borg cube... Were this a literal city, it sounds like we'd be pretty well able to defend ourselves if the borg were to decide to invade sector 001.

I started trying to figure that out one day- and all I ended up with was "Man- this thing would be HUGE!" when I gave up.

But really blasting them Borg would be worth it all!!

[guitarist]

Home teaching is a thing of the past with them, since their HTs know their needs at the same time they do. Of course, it's harder to find a more absolute example of the law of consecration than them...

If you have a problem with sector 001, by the same token, why should the Borg be able to designate their little section of the delta quadrant Unimatrix 01, and call sector 001 Spatial Grid 325?

[CV75]

If one were to take it literally, 1 furlong = 220 yards, at 12,000 furlongs, that would be a city that was 1,500 miles long, wide & tall. Theoretically, the width & length could fit on the north american continent, but the height would be a bit problematic, not the least of which is the ISS (and a whole host of other satellites) would almost certainly collide with it on occasion.

This city cube would also be 512 million times larger than a borg cube... Were this a literal city, it sounds like we'd be pretty well able to defend ourselves if the borg were to decide to invade sector 001.

I think it wil be like an iceBorg, with most if its 1500 miles underground, and the rest of it barely upon the continent.

[guitarist]

I think it wil be like an iceBorg, with most if its 1500 miles underground, and the rest of it barely upon the continent.

ah, so that solves the question of power--geothermic power, on account of sitting on/being surrounded by hot liquid magma of the upper & lower mantle

[mfbukowski]

ah, so that solves the question of power--geothermic power, on account of sitting on/being surrounded by hot liquid magma of the upper & lower mantle

Not to mention a lot of the structural problems. And ice is translucent.

Dang. This just might work.....

So maybe the "sea of glass" is ice!!

And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Ya got your ice, you got your magma- man this is really shaping up here....

... iceBorg, ....

Lol- you get points for that one!

Edited April 17, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Freedom]

If you have a problem with sector 001, by the same token, why should the Borg be able to designate their little section of the delta quadrant Unimatrix 01, and call sector 001 Spatial Grid 325?

I have found from sad experience that it is futile to correct the Borg.

[Calm]

Home teaching is a thing of the past with them, since their HTs know their needs at the same time they do. Of course, it's harder to find a more absolute example of the law of consecration than them...

If you have a problem with sector 001, by the same token, why should the Borg be able to designate their little section of the delta quadrant Unimatrix 01, and call sector 001 Spatial Grid 325?

The Borg set up the Borg with the concept of the Borg being the center of things, from their paradigm it makes sense. All became Borg, not the other way around.

OTOH, humans were not the most advanced race in the Federation when it was formed even if it was their idea, they had been contacted by Vulcans first (and IIRC had even been visited by Klingons though that may have been accidentally, been too long since I read that book so another race with space capability), Vulcans must have had interstellar travel for quite some time too since they had separated from the Romulans way in the past. If so, then the Vulcans must have developed a spatial reference prior to meeting humans and why since they considered humans an inferior race, would they have adopted the human reference as the centerplace?

Since humans had a problem convincing not only other species, but their own people to join the Confederation (the first version), it would have made much more sense to choose a central location for the four original species and set up the main headquarters there. Much more likely to have gotten agreement on resetting all those star charts as well. Somehow I just don't see the Andorians or Tellarites giving way to supremacy to any other race, though the Vulcans might have been willing to compromise for efficiency sake's.

Edited April 17, 2012 by calmoriah

[guitarist]

The Borg set up the Borg with the concept of the Borg being the center of things, from their paradigm it makes sense. All became Borg, not the other way around.

OTOH, humans were not the most advance race in the Federation when it was formed, they had been contacted by Vulcans first (and IIRC had even been visited by Klingons though that may have been accidentally, been too long since I read that book so another race with space capability), Vulcans must have had interstellar travel for quite some time too since they had separated from the Romulans way in the past. If so, then the Vulcans must have developed a spatial reference prior to meeting humans and why since they considered humans an inferior race, would they have adopted the human reference as the centerplace?

My federation history is a bit rusty, but IIRC, the human race was the one who was the catalyst for putting the Federation together. So regardless of racial superiority/inferiority, the Terran system was the starting point for the Federation, and is also where its headquarters is located, probably in recognition of the human effort in getting the Federation put together. For a Vulcan, since they bury their emotions, and they have no pride as a result, the only real consideration for them is efficiency. As for Klingons, they were not a part of the federation, or even an ally until after the events of Kitomer, and the Federation was well established by then, so they would have to learn their coordinate system just like anyone else would a major system like that. The Romulans would never switch to another system other than their own, since they don't consider humans to be their equal, and since they have always been enemies of the Federation, but they would recognize the the tactical advantage in knowing how to read it.

It would seem that for the Andorians & the Tellarites, Captain Archer played a big role in softening their views of the Terrans.

Edited April 17, 2012 by guitarist

[mfbukowski]

If so, then the Vulcans must have developed a spatial reference prior to meeting humans and why since they considered humans an inferior race, would they have adopted the human reference as the centerplace?

How dare you imply that we are not the center of the universe and that such a thing is not objectively proven by science!

The very notion that reality could be different from different points of view is clearly relativistic nonsense derived from Satan himself!!

Edited April 17, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

Andorians (who don't trust anyone) and Tellarites are not the most accommodating of species though, the Federation almost didn't get formed due to squabbling, IIRC, and humans are shown as usually being ones willing to compromise.

Makes much more sense to choose a completely neutral area for Sector 001 so no one gets offended.

Another thing....what halfway intelligent race would allow a race with such a recent history of overaggression as humans have such dominance over the military arm of the Federation, should have insisted on equal representation and access.....so many things that never made much sense to me.

Edited April 17, 2012 by calmoriah

[Freedom]

Be warned, you are getting too political in this thread.

[mfbukowski]

Another thing....what halfway intelligent race would allow a race with such a recent history of overaggression as humans have such dominance over the military arm of the Federation, should have insisted on equal representation and access.....so many things that never made much sense to me.

Star Trek not make sense?

Yet another heresy!