Judd Posted March 18, 2012 Posted March 18, 2012 I've heard there's instruction in the CHI to not ask members to participate in simulations of natural disasters but I haven't actually seen this. Can anyone confirm?
Calm Posted March 18, 2012 Posted March 18, 2012 I was under the impression that there was actually the opposite advice, that we should be participate in preparedness events. Now you have me curious.
Calm Posted March 18, 2012 Posted March 18, 2012 Nothing yet, but found this interesting New Era article: http://www.lds.org/liahona/2009/03/search-and-rescue?lang=eng&query=disasterI know that there are many places where churches are set up as emergency shelters and/or centers, I would think it would be required for them to participate in any drills.
Calm Posted March 18, 2012 Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) From handbook 2:Ward Council:They compile and maintain a list of ward members whose skills might be useful in re- sponding to short-term, long-term, or disaster- caused needs.They develop and maintain a simple written plan for the ward to respond to emergencies (see Handbook 1, 5.2.11). They coordinate this plan with similar plans in the stake and community.Stake:They develop and maintain a simple writ- ten plan for the stake to respond to emergencies (see Handbook 1, 5.1.3). This plan should be co- ordinated with similar plans of other stakes in the coordinating council and with plans in the community.Develop and maintain a simple written plan for the stake to respond to emergencies. EmergenciesDuring an emergency, the stake presidency determines whether or not to hold regular ward meetings.In a community-wide emergency or disaster, the stake president may assist legitimate disaster relief agencies by allowing meetinghouses to be used as emergency shelters. The Church retains control. Stake and ward leaders ensure that peo- ple who use the buildings observe Church stan- dards of conduct, including the Word of Wisdom, while they are in the buildings.Perhaps the bolded part is cause of the misunderstanding.....The Relief Society presidency may form com- mittees to accomplish ongoing work such as strengthening individuals, families, and homes; watching over young single adult sisters; wel- fare; emergency preparedness; temple and family history work; missionary work; convert reten- tion; and activation. Leaders of the committees report to the Relief Society president or an as- signed counselor. Committee members may be given specific areas of responsibility.Leaders should be prepared for emergencies that may occur. They should also know in ad- vance how to contact local law enforcement and emergency services.Church units may not sponsor the follow- ing activities. Leaders, parents, and others who plan or participate in Church activities should be aware of these restrictions.1. Activities that have a high risk of injury or ill- ness or that require unusual expense or travel (see 13.6.20 and 13.6.24).If one thinks that disaster simulations are high risk, I supposed this might apply, but it is just about not having it Church sponsored, nothing about not participating in them at all. Edited March 18, 2012 by calmoriah
Calm Posted March 18, 2012 Posted March 18, 2012 You might look over this page at Provident Living dealing with emergency preparedness:http://www.providentliving.lds.org/content/list/0,11664,8039-1,00.html
Calm Posted March 18, 2012 Posted March 18, 2012 Not a simulation but: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=f5757b372a311110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=7cecc8fe9c88d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRDI hope someone with access to Handbook 1 answers as I am now curious.
bluebell Posted March 18, 2012 Posted March 18, 2012 I remember my grandparents ward participating in a 'pretend disaster' where everyone had to live off of their food storage with no running water and no electricity use for 72 hours. I was probably in middle school when they did it.Perhaps that's the kind of 'disaster practice' that Judd is talking about?
Judd Posted March 19, 2012 Author Posted March 19, 2012 I remember my grandparents ward participating in a 'pretend disaster' where everyone had to live off of their food storage with no running water and no electricity use for 72 hours. I was probably in middle school when they did it.Perhaps that's the kind of 'disaster practice' that Judd is talking about?That's exactly what I'm talking about.
Calm Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 I can see that as it might use up expensive resources that might be hard for someone to replace.
LeSellers Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 I can see that as it might use up expensive resources that might be hard for someone to replace.Everything has a cost.In the Army we had (not as much need today, since there are two live wars going no) live-fire training for all of our weapons, helicopters, signal assets, and tanks, guns, aircraft, naval support, and on and on. They all "use[d] up expensive resources that were hard to replace, but the return on investment (prepared, disciplined, reliable troops) was more than adequate to justify the cost.Were my Jacquie and I called up on to live off our food storage (i.e., buy nothing, use no power, water, gas, not flush the toilets, etc., nothing that required outside intervention), we could go on for a very long time: we have followed the counsel of the Brethren, heard since we were toddlers, to prepare. Our children and their families could, as well: we taught them to do the same things.We will be able to go on forever, I think, as soon as we get the solar panels built and installed, along with the battery system. EMP might defeat us on this score, but we'd still be in vastly better shape than 95% of the people, and better by some margin than 95% of the others who have "prepped" for the inevitable disasters that will face us as a western society/culture. (I am thinking that we might store a second shipment of unused solar cells, so I could rebuild our electrical system even in the case of EMP.) The bishop will not have to worry about us, and will have us as a resource to help the ward.A daughter-in-law is going to nursing school to become, among other things, a midwife, so she can contribute when others may be in need. No small feat with two toddlers at home: a sacrifice for her and for our son and granddaughters.We simulate a lot of things and we imagine other scenarios so we'll be ready as best we can to continue to live, and to be able to help others. But I will not be a nanny to people who refused to do anything to get ready, especially when the signs of the times are no less apparent than a red sky in the morning and fig leaves on trees. They can wipe their own noses, although I'll gladly give 'em a couple of sheets of TP for the job—instructions if needed. But I'll want the tissues back: Black Soldier Fly larvae eat them. "Use it up–wear it out. Make it do, or do without." There won't be any cheap, Chinese imports to replace things that break.One thing we don't do is go to movies more than twice a year. We don't eat out much, either. Haven't had a "pleasure" vacation for ten years. We can't afford them because that would mean our preparation would suffer. I see people enjoying themselves and wonder if they'll be among those who think, "We know where Sssssss live: I can just take their stuff." I hope there aren't too many, especially Saints, who are planning first degree murder to survive. A friend, moving from the area, told our daughter that, in her church, they had made a map showing where all the Saints lived, and that, when the calamity comes, they, members of that other church, were going to do just that. (One reason for hoping this is that, while I'm willing to share, I am completely unwilling to be robbed; we've planned for that, too. The grasshopper will not live while the ant starves, not in the real world: my last 9mm shot group, at 25 yds, was 8½"; at 15', 3½".)BTW, I was finally set apart yesterday as the Stake Preparedness Specialist. This is now both personal and official for me. I should have my Technician license test on Saturday, maybe General, too. Scoring 32+/35 on the Technician practice tests. Haven't tired General yet, but did a few Extra rounds, and didn't fair too badly: Saturday is a long way off. Ordering a radio this week, will be joining a grandson and his mom in our stake Amateur club: "C3" ("C4"): Command, Control, Communications (Computers); have been and will always be the keys to a successful battlefield, and they are just as critical to a stake president or bishop and his stewardship in time of crisis. The three key components to all three/four is training, training, and training.Lehi 1
thesometimesaint Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 We train and keep training in the hopes that we will never have to use that training. Because in an emergancy we do what we are trained to do.
Judd Posted March 19, 2012 Author Posted March 19, 2012 Everything has a cost.In the Army we had (not as much need today, since there are two live wars going no) live-fire training for all of our weapons, helicopters, signal assets, and tanks, guns, aircraft, naval support, and on and on. They all "use[d] up expensive resources that were hard to replace, but the return on investment (prepared, disciplined, reliable troops) was more than adequate to justify the cost.Were my Jacquie and I called up on to live off our food storage (i.e., buy nothing, use no power, water, gas, not flush the toilets, etc., nothing that required outside intervention), we could go on for a very long time: we have followed the counsel of the Brethren, heard since we were toddlers, to prepare. Our children and their families could, as well: we taught them to do the same things.We will be able to go on forever, I think, as soon as we get the solar panels built and installed, along with the battery system. EMP might defeat us on this score, but we'd still be in vastly better shape than 95% of the people, and better by some margin than 95% of the others who have "prepped" for the inevitable disasters that will face us as a western society/culture. (I am thinking that we might store a second shipment of unused solar cells, so I could rebuild our electrical system even in the case of EMP.) The bishop will not have to worry about us, and will have us as a resource to help the ward.A daughter-in-law is going to nursing school to become, among other things, a midwife, so she can contribute when others may be in need. No small feat with two toddlers at home: a sacrifice for her and for our son and granddaughters.We simulate a lot of things and we imagine other scenarios so we'll be ready as best we can to continue to live, and to be able to help others. But I will not be a nanny to people who refused to do anything to get ready, especially when the signs of the times are no less apparent than a red sky in the morning and fig leaves on trees. They can wipe their own noses, although I'll gladly give 'em a couple of sheets of TP for the job—instructions if needed. But I'll want the tissues back: Black Soldier Fly larvae eat them. "Use it up–wear it out. Make it do, or do without." There won't be any cheap, Chinese imports to replace things that break.One thing we don't do is go to movies more than twice a year. We don't eat out much, either. Haven't had a "pleasure" vacation for ten years. We can't afford them because that would mean our preparation would suffer. I see people enjoying themselves and wonder if they'll be among those who think, "We know where Sssssss live: I can just take their stuff." I hope there aren't too many, especially Saints, who are planning first degree murder to survive. A friend, moving from the area, told our daughter that, in her church, they had made a map showing where all the Saints lived, and that, when the calamity comes, they, members of that other church, were going to do just that. (One reason for hoping this is that, while I'm willing to share, I am completely unwilling to be robbed; we've planned for that, too. The grasshopper will not live while the ant starves, not in the real world: my last 9mm shot group, at 25 yds, was 8½"; at 15', 3½".)BTW, I was finally set apart yesterday as the Stake Preparedness Specialist. This is now both personal and official for me. I should have my Technician license test on Saturday, maybe General, too. Scoring 32+/35 on the Technician practice tests. Haven't tired General yet, but did a few Extra rounds, and didn't fair too badly: Saturday is a long way off. Ordering a radio this week, will be joining a grandson and his mom in our stake Amateur club: "C3" ("C4"): Command, Control, Communications (Computers); have been and will always be the keys to a successful battlefield, and they are just as critical to a stake president or bishop and his stewardship in time of crisis. The three key components to all three/four is training, training, and training.LehiThank you for the detailed derailment of the thread. I appreciate that you have strong feelings on this subject but these are not the questions I'm asking. What I'm asking is for a confirmation or denial of what I've heard being in the CHI.
rongo Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 CHI book one does indeed ban emergency simulation drills. This was discussed at a recent bishops' welfare committee meeting (a quarterly meeting of stake bishops).While it would be nice to see how members react to a "live" simulation, it's too much like the boy who cried wolf. You would never get that level of reaction again, because in the backs of people's minds they would wonder. You would also freak some people out excessively, when there was actually no emergency. I think the policy is spot on.Reaction in an emergency is best kept to the live "real deal," where we find out what we are made of. Most rise to the occasion, and may surprise some people.
Judd Posted March 19, 2012 Author Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) CHI book one does indeed ban emergency simulation drills. This was discussed at a recent bishops' welfare committee meeting (a quarterly meeting of stake bishops).While it would be nice to see how members react to a "live" simulation, it's too much like the boy who cried wolf. You would never get that level of reaction again, because in the backs of people's minds they would wonder. You would also freak some people out excessively, when there was actually no emergency. I think the policy is spot on.Reaction in an emergency is best kept to the live "real deal," where we find out what we are made of. Most rise to the occasion, and may surprise some people.Thanks for your contribution! Answers my question. Edited March 19, 2012 by Judd
bluebell Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 CHI book one does indeed ban emergency simulation drills. This was discussed at a recent bishops' welfare committee meeting (a quarterly meeting of stake bishops).While it would be nice to see how members react to a "live" simulation, it's too much like the boy who cried wolf. You would never get that level of reaction again, because in the backs of people's minds they would wonder. You would also freak some people out excessively, when there was actually no emergency. I think the policy is spot on.Reaction in an emergency is best kept to the live "real deal," where we find out what we are made of. Most rise to the occasion, and may surprise some people.Does it matter if the members know before hand that the exercise really is just a 'drill'?
rongo Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 It would be better than if they believed it was the "real thing," I think. But it also wouldn't be a real simulation, then.There's also the fact that people would be consuming their emergency resources for a non-emergency (like when people have been instructed to live solely off of their supplies for three days).
blackstrap Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 It is a good idea,aside from resources well prepared,to have ones chi as strong and centered as possible.
Judd Posted March 20, 2012 Author Posted March 20, 2012 It would be better than if they believed it was the "real thing," I think. But it also wouldn't be a real simulation, then.There's also the fact that people would be consuming their emergency resources for a non-emergency (like when people have been instructed to live solely off of their supplies for three days).So is this just pertaining to mock drills where the members are unaware or mock drills where membership is asked to pretend? I'd think the latter because I can't see any way they could simulate a natural disaster and have people believe it was real.
Calm Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 It is a good idea,aside from resources well prepared,to have ones chi as strong and centered as possible.I am glad I am not the only who thinks of that when reading the title.
rongo Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 So is this just pertaining to mock drills where the members are unaware or mock drills where membership is asked to pretend? I think it is both. That's how I read it; we're not supposed to do mock drills, whether or not the people know it's a drill. My handbook is in my office, and I don't have a fast enough connection to look it up online (the connection will die if I try), but that is the clear sense that came out of a group of ten bishops and branch presidents as we looked this up in a bishops' welfare committee meeting.
Calm Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 I just got an email from the ward about preparing for Utah's Shakeout: http://www.shakeout.org/utah/I think there are some drills like fire and tornado drills at schools which would be acceptable, being very short term and about training reflexes needed.Even those can have unintended consequences though, my niece had severe anxiety attacks about tornado drills for years because when she was in Kindergarten her teacher didn't make it clear it was a drill.
rongo Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 There is a difference between civic and church drills, of course, and drills of some sort are necessary. Civic drills don't call upon members to consume their storage items, though.I went to high school in the Chicago area, and we had tornado sirens every Tuesday at 10:00 in our town. During baseball practice once, we were hastily gathered into the locker room and told to wait there and not to leave. After what seemed like forever, a few of us went outside and saw a scary dark greenish sky with dramatic storm clouds and three evil looking funnel clouds going up and down. We never saw one touch down. Our neighboring city's high school football field was demolished, as was Plainfield High School (the building).There is definitely a place for drills, just probably not within the ward structure.
LeSellers Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 A year and a half ago, while I was bearing my testimony, the bishop stood u beside me and asked that I end quickly because there was a tornado looming down on us.He had us go into the cultural hall (not the "gym(naseum)"="place to be naked in"). It turns out the cultural hall is the worst place in the building to go during a tornado: high ceilings, etc.No one knew, then, that we should have gone into the restrooms, the two or three classrooms with no windows, or the hallways; all much safer options.No one knew, and no one had ever practiced this: it was chaos. Not merely noisy, but people standing around with no idea of what to do next. The little first aid kid in the members' custodial closet would have been a nice resource, if it had been stocked. It was empty of everything but a couple of compresses.A drill would have exposed these shortfalls before the potential of needing them was upon us, like the Philistines of Sampson's day. We had just had our hair shorn, to continue the metaphor.Lehi
Grundelwalken Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 Interesting topic. A while ago (I would guess before then new CHI came out) our stake had a practice run for disaster. Most of us died because we had such lousy communication. My SP was very disappointed so he encouraged us to practice as a ward but we never got things finished. Then the whole project died. I was released last year and have heard nothing since. Probably because of the CHI counsel. Should have read it while I had one but..... too many other issues that were real (I know, this one is real also but not as pressing).Makes sense to reduce the "cry wolf" syndrome. Just hope we don't all die when the real thing happens here in Zion. Our part is right on an old swamp and if earthquakes hit we will be toast. MW
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