asbestosman Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 Many times I hear arguments about how something isn't fair. Sometimes I'm inclined to dismiss such arguments by simply thinking that life isn't fair and wasn't meant to be. In fairness, I think I'm fair about whether or not the unfairness is in my favor or not. Some questions on fairness come to mind:What is the relationship between fairness and the gospel concept of justice? Are they the same thing? Keep in mind that the atonement was made to satisfy the demands of justice and mercy.When is it appropriate to use fairness as evidence in favor of the gospel message? In particular, I remember as a missionary teaching about baptism for the dead and templework by asking if it's fair for God to condemn those who never got a chance to hear His message.When (and how) should we accept unfairness? It may not be fair that some people are born with better intelligence, looks, or health than others. To what extent should this be corrected and where do we draw the line so we don't end up like Harrison Bergeron?When children protest, "That's not fair!" when do they get it wrong, and how can we tell? Can this help us determine whether adults claiming something is not fair are mistaken, or is it matter of some other principle having greater weight (and which principles)?When we look at others with their lands and gold, we sing that we should think that God has promised us His wealth untold and count our blessings. Is this speaking specifically of avoiding the sin of coveting, or is this counsel to accept that life isn't fair?
The Nehor Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 I don't mind life not being fair. I just wish it was unfair more often in my favor.
sethpayne Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 Many times I hear arguments about how something isn't fair. Sometimes I'm inclined to dismiss such arguments by simply thinking that life isn't fair and wasn't meant to be. In fairness, I think I'm fair about whether or not the unfairness is in my favor or not. Some questions on fairness come to mind:What is the relationship between fairness and the gospel concept of justice? Are they the same thing? Keep in mind that the atonement was made to satisfy the demands of justice and mercy.When is it appropriate to use fairness as evidence in favor of the gospel message? In particular, I remember as a missionary teaching about baptism for the dead and templework by asking if it's fair for God to condemn those who never got a chance to hear His message.When (and how) should we accept unfairness? It may not be fair that some people are born with better intelligence, looks, or health than others. To what extent should this be corrected and where do we draw the line so we don't end up like Harrison Bergeron?When children protest, "That's not fair!" when do they get it wrong, and how can we tell? Can this help us determine whether adults claiming something is not fair are mistaken, or is it matter of some other principle having greater weight (and which principles)?When we look at others with their lands and gold, we sing that we should think that God has promised us His wealth untold and count our blessings. Is this speaking specifically of avoiding the sin of coveting, or is this counsel to accept that life isn't fair?abestosman is channeling John Rawls .....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_as_Fairness
JDave Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 I personally think life is unfair and I am grateful for it.Some questions on fairness come to mind:Having gone through a discussion on this before I would say that you need to establish a definition of fair.Fairness is everyone gets the same. Everyone gets their fair share.Fairness is everyone gets what they deserve.Fairness is everyone gets what they need.Fairness is simply a lack of injustices.I'm sure there are more possibilities... Nail that down first, because I do think this is an interesting topic.
Freedom Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 We have a saying in our home when one of our children complain that something is not fair. "no it's not fair, and its not a circus either". Charity is a limited resource, and of course mercy cannot rob justice. If life were fair, we would not learn anything and we would not be challenged to succeed.
asbestosman Posted February 10, 2012 Author Posted February 10, 2012 I personally think life is unfair and I am grateful for it.Having gone through a discussion on this before I would say that you need to establish a definition of fair.Fairness is everyone gets the same. Everyone gets their fair share.Fairness is everyone gets what they deserve.Fairness is everyone gets what they need.Fairness is simply a lack of injustices.I'm sure there are more possibilities... Nail that down first, because I do think this is an interesting topic.I intend to leave open the question of what fairness means. I think different people may find it means different hings, so I'll leave it to each person to argue for what it means or what it means in different contexts--especially the contexts I mentioned. Of particular interest to me is the comparison and contrast to when we argue that fairness compels God to certain things (atonement, templework), vs when critics use fairness to claim we should behave in a certain way--often political but let's not make this a political debate. Let us focus on the gospel principles involved in the various notions of fairness.As for the discussion on this before, do you happen to have a link?
CV75 Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 Many times I hear arguments about how something isn't fair.I think fairness is a kind of balance between justice, mercy, wisdom and love--to be fair, one has to know when to exact justice and extend mercy, considering all the conditions and circumstances. It is a bit more conditional than grace.
Somebodyz Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 It would be boring if life was fair. Or it could be a lot of fun. Old lady gets mugged...fairness rides in (red cape, knickers on the outside of his tights) zap, mugger gets his.It would be difficult to learn forgiveness,patience or faith, if it was so easy though.
blackstrap Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 It's not fair that the old lady got mugged in the first place. Or that she got old,for that matter. Fair would be if the mugger tried to mug Chuck Norris.
Jeff K. Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 I think fairness is a kind of balance between justice, mercy, wisdom and love--to be fair, one has to know when to exact justice and extend mercy, considering all the conditions and circumstances. It is a bit more conditional than grace.I think it is slightly different. Mercy I believe is something distinct from fairness and it requires love to be sure. But mercy surpasses the abiltiy to be fair by allowing those without hope to retain their hope. I see fairness as being akin to justice in that it delivers on a balance exactly what is meted out. I suppose that is why I see the statement "We should always be just and show mercy" as being a complicated entanglement between two distinct concepts.
blueadept Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) What does fairness look like? One attribute that I believe people try to associate with fairness is that it promotes peace.My favorite priest, Rev Brian Massingale at Marquette University who specializes in Catholic Moral Theology, Social Ethics, Liberation Theologies, and African American Religious Ethics, once said that "if you want peace, seek justice." He is a big proponent of Affirmative Action policies. Edited February 10, 2012 by blueadept
thesometimesaint Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 Nothing in this life is fair, unless you live where there is a fair. Just accept it and do the best you can. God recognizes your efforts, feeble as they may be, and will reward you in the next.
blueadept Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 Nothing in this life is fair, unless you live where there is a fair. Just accept it and do the best you can. God recognizes your efforts, feeble as they may be, and will reward you in the next. I believe God calls upon us as Christians to be more proactive on the issue than that. We are called upon to make it a better world.Blessed are the peacemakers,for they will be called children of God. 1
JDave Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 Life is not simply limited to mortality. Is life (premortal, mortal, postmortal) fair? Is God by definition fair because "fair" is a good thing, so we define fair around what God does?
blueadept Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 Life is not simply limited to mortality. Is life (premortal, mortal, postmortal) fair? Is God by definition fair because "fair" is a good thing, so we define fair around what God does? We will only be judged on our conduct in this life only. Since I believe in the Atonement, I know HF will be better than 'fair' but he will be merciful. I don't want to be judged on what I deserve.
LeSellers Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 Fair would be if the mugger tried to mug Chuck Norris. Oh! dear! Are we in for a passel of Chuck Norris jokes?LehiP.S,: Aren't you glad I didn't post one? LS
Grundelwalken Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 We will only be judged on our conduct in this life only. Since I believe in the Atonement, I know HF will be better than 'fair' but he will be merciful. I don't want to be judged on what I deserve.I hope that this is not true. My hope is that the sum of my existence (premortal, mortal, postmortal) will have a bearing on what I receive. While this life has great effect on the final judgment, there are still things to do in the next and things that have been done in the previous that will determine the reward. It would be unfair to ignore any of the good that has been done in the whole plan of progression. MW 1
blueadept Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) I hope that this is not true. My hope is that the sum of my existence (premortal, mortal, postmortal) will have a bearing on what I receive. While this life has great effect on the final judgment, there are still things to do in the next and things that have been done in the previous that will determine the reward. It would be unfair to ignore any of the good that has been done in the whole plan of progression. MWWhile I respect the LDS plan of salvation, there is obviously a fundamental difference between that and the Catholic plan of salvation since we don't believe in the pre-existence and have a difference in opionion in regards to the postmortal life.From the Baltimore Catechism (paraphrasing)To Know Him, To Love Him, and to Serve Him in this life, so that we can hope to be with Him in the next life Edited February 10, 2012 by blueadept
JDave Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 I intend to leave open the question of what fairness means.Fair enough As for the discussion on this before, do you happen to have a link?Looks like it didn't survive the board transformation.I think we all, even from an early age, feel a sense of unfairness or injustice about certain things around us. At times we can't even articulate why we feel it is unfair, but the feeling persists nonetheless. We just know that that is unfair. Meanwhile it isn't quite so easy to get a sense of what is fair. Subtle (or not so subtle) influences of our personal desires creep into our perception of what true fairness would look like. I don't think there is an analogous visceral sense of fairness to compare with our often deep sense of unfairness. So what is fair?
thesometimesaint Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 blueadept:Trying to make this earth a better place to live, like following the Beattitudes, Loving God, and loving your neighbor as yourself, is doing the best you can.
wenglund Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 Are discussions about fairness much different from discussions about equality?Either way, I think these aren't the best questions to pursue. Instead, if we seek for what works best in growing us toward becoming the best people, issues of fairness and equality will indirectly be resolved, or become non-issues, in the process. Whereas, I have found that if fairness and equality become our goal, then we tend to devolve to the lowest common denominator or into chaos. The continued decline of various fundamental social institutions (families and schools), in light of social and legal movements towards fairness and equality, are cases in point. But, that may be just how I see things.Thanks, -Wade Englund-
LeSellers Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. 15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. 16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. 17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. 18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. 20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. 21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. 23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. 28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.This represents true fairness.Lehi
Jeff K. Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 Are discussions about fairness much different from discussions about equality?Either way, I think these aren't the best questions to pursue. Instead, if we seek for what works best in growing us toward becoming the best people, issues of fairness and equality will indirectly be resolved, or become non-issues, in the process. Whereas, I have found that if fairness and equality become our goal, then we tend to devolve to the lowest common denominator or into chaos. The continued decline of various fundamental social institutions (families and schools), in light of social and legal movements towards fairness and equality, are cases in point. But, that may be just how I see things.Thanks, -Wade Englund-Who is John Galt?
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