What Could The Lds Church Do Now To Attract Apostates Back Into The Fold?

[mercyngrace]

What happens with the kids during the meal and afterwards? Do they stick by their parents and quietly behave or do they tend to socialize with other kids their own age? Do they tend to run around the rest of the building?

Little ones stick with their parents, the teens and tweens tend to eat with their families, too, though I sometimes see some of the girls sit with the families of their friends.

We don't seem to have a problem with kids running around the building or youth heading off on their own to get into trouble but we have some pretty awesome young people in our ward.

edit: When we finish eating, my kids start taking down the chairs we used and clearing and wiping down our table. Then if we see someone else who had their hands too full to put away their table and chairs, we put theirs away. Everyone else does pretty much the same for each other. It's really just not a big deal.

Edited February 4, 2012 by mercyngrace

[Loran Blood]

Another thread got me thinking about this idea. Is there anything the LDS Church could do to attract members back. (specifically members that have left over historical or doctrinal issues - not those that have simply faded into inactivity)

The truth is that I don't think there is anything they could do to get me back. That ship has left the dock and I don't see it turning around.

I do think there are some things the LDS Church could do to keep current members from leaving but that is probably a different topic all together.

What about you? Is there something you see that the LDS Church could do differently that would bring back the apostates?

Just make all the commnadments, policies, doctrines, counsel, standards, and ordinances optional. Make them all religious "lifestyle options," and allow an open bar at church weddings.

You won't be able to keep them away.

[Loran Blood]

Double post. The board is very slow tonight and keeps going offline.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Loran Blood

[Loran Blood]

If some ancient fragments of writings were found that matched some part of the BoM or referred to it they still wouldn't come back.

This is exactly correct. If an ancient text were discovered in a previously unopened Egyptian tomb, radiocarbon dated to the time when Raquel Welch was running around in a skimpy animal skin going "Tumak! Tumak! Akita!" and before there were any polar bears to worry about, that said, "Attention, peoples of earth. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is true. Join it or be damned." and ended with "Klaatu, Barrada, Nicto." it wouldn't make the slightest difference for most of these folks.

To think otherwise is to believe that most people who really, in the deep sense of the term, apostatize from the gospel, have done so because something like that hasn't been found, and not because of other reasons unrelated to extraneous intellectual confirmation of this kind. I just don't think that's why most people leave the Church and especially those to then "turn and rend" it.

[Palerider]

Because it isn't integral to the fact of the First Vision and what it teaches.

Guess you'll be having your own little party then.

[Palerider]

This is exactly correct. If an ancient text were discovered in a previously unopened Egyptian tomb, radiocarbon dated to the time when Raquel Welch was running around in a skimpy animal skin going "Tumak! Tumak! Akita!" and before there were any polar bears to worry about, that said, "Attention, peoples of earth. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is true. Join it or be damned." and ended with "Klaatu, Barrada, Nicto." it wouldn't make the slightest difference for most of these folks.

To think otherwise is to believe that most people who really, in the deep sense of the term, apostatize from the gospel, have done so because something like that hasn't been found, and not because of other reasons unrelated to extraneous intellectual confirmation of this kind. I just don't think that's why most people leave the Church and especially those to then "turn and rend" it.

Actually I would have to take a very serious look at my present conclusions if something valid of this nature were actually found.

For the present time we are left with.....(drum role here).......Ta Da!...... The Kinderhook plates......

Edited February 5, 2012 by Palerider

[KevinG]

Please allow me to define what I'm looking for in a church rather than taking it upon yourself.

All relationships, whether with individuals or institutions are based first and foremost on trust. If you can't trust someone you have nothing on which to build.

The foundational stories that I was taught and continued to teach as a missionary are not a good representation of what actually occurred in the primary stages of the early church. Some here would say they have been "idealized", Whitewashing seems to be too strong a word for them to stomach. Go ahead and use "idealized if it helps you sleep at night. It's o.k. with me.

When the more accurate history becomes known it gives one pause as to:

1. Why did I have to find this out from some other source. Why didn't the church include it as a part of their curriculum?

2. Is there more that I'm not being told?

3. When I look for answers to the questions that are raised, the answers are weak and unsatisfactory and only raise even more troubling questions.

4. Church leadership and others (members on this site) seem to hold one in derision or see one as faithless for not accepting these weak and troubling answers. Their first inclination is to play doctor and diagnose a questioning individual with some sort of spiritual malady that requires severe repentance and humbling oneself; to throw reason out the window and "just accept on faith what we're telling you and get back in line".

5. If the church won't teach their history honestly aren't they afraid? Are they truly operating out of a position of fear? Who is it that operates on fear? Don't they have enough faith to give a true representation of their foundational stories?

In my heart when someone says, "It' was o.k. for Joseph to be married or sealed to another man's wife while that man was still alive." something inside me says, "And you think I'm out of line?" "Are you really going to buy this Palerider?"

For me the church has what I consider a "terminal crediblity gap".

And it is terribly sad. There is much that I miss about it.

Start your own Mormon religion if you think the LDS Church has gone astray. You will be among a vast company.

[altersteve]

For the present time we are left with.....(drum role here).......Ta Da!...... The Kinderhook plates......

What about them? There is no record of Joseph Smith claiming that he translated the Kinderhook plates by divine means, nor is there any first-hand account of Joseph talking about the plates at all. Furthermore, current scholarship shows that apparently Joseph correctly translated at least one character on the plates using the GAEL, but he seemed to have either gotten bored with them or realized they were fake because he showed absolutely no interest in them after that.

What are we left with now?

[Palerider]

What about them? There is no record of Joseph Smith claiming that he translated the Kinderhook plates by divine means, nor is there any first-hand account of Joseph talking about the plates at all. Furthermore, current scholarship shows that apparently Joseph correctly translated at least one character on the plates using the GAEL, but he seemed to have either gotten bored with them or realized they were fake because he showed absolutely no interest in them after that.

What are we left with now?

"I have seen 6 brass plates... covered with ancient characters of language containing from 30 to 40 on each side of the plates. Prest J. has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth." (William Clayton's Journal, May 1, 1843, as cited in Trials of Discipleship — The Story of William Clayton, a Mormon, page 117)

From the tone of your post, I'm sure you have already prepared some convoluted response to show that William Clayton's statement above was mistaken and erroneous.

Let's just say I disagree with your assesment and am willing to take his statement on it's face value. If you desire to continue to argue this issue please do so on someone else's time. The above statement by Clayton, plus others made by the church are sufficient for me.

[Palerider]

Start your own Mormon religion if you think the LDS Church has gone astray. You will be among a vast company.

This sort of response is exactly why I don't respond to yourself and a couple of others here on this site. The prejudice is overwhelming.

Rather than addressing the issues I have pointed out or carrying on some sort of meaningful dialogue or just calmly state that you disagree, you insist on showing everyone how short your stature truly is.

[altersteve]

"I have seen 6 brass plates... covered with ancient characters of language containing from 30 to 40 on each side of the plates. Prest J. has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth." (William Clayton's Journal, May 1, 1843, as cited in Trials of Discipleship — The Story of William Clayton, a Mormon, page 117)

From the tone of your post, I'm sure you have already prepared some convoluted response to show that William Clayton's statement above was mistaken and erroneous.

Let's just say I disagree with your assesment and am willing to take his statement on it's face value. If you desire to continue to argue this issue please do so on someone else's time. The above statement by Clayton, plus others made by the church are sufficient for me.

I too take Clayton's statement at face value.

As I said in my last post, Joseph did indeed translate one character on the plates ("a portion"), and we can be certain about this because what Clayton claimed Joseph told him is consistent with what the GAEL provides about the meaning of an Egyptian symbol which is identical to a prominent character on the Kinderhook plates. Therefore, Joseph seems to have "translated" this character by comparing it to the corresponding interpretation of a matching character on the GAEL. Remember that he did not claim to do any of this "by the gift and power of God" as he did with the Book of Mormon, and there is no record of him saying anything about the plates at all other than what Clatyon claimed he said, so he clearly lost interest in them.

Thus, it is clear that the Kinderhook plates do NOT prove Joseph was a fraud, as is assumed by critics who do not keep themselves up to date with modern scholarship.

Edited February 5, 2012 by altersteve

[KevinG]

This sort of response is exactly why I don't respond to yourself and a couple of others here on this site. The prejudice is overwhelming.

Rather than addressing the issues I have pointed out or carrying on some sort of meaningful dialogue or just calmly state that you disagree, you insist on showing everyone how short your stature truly is.

Easy there cowboy. I was quite serious. If you believe in some of the principles of the LDS Church but disagree that there is authority there then you should be in a position to start your own or join another with a belief system that matches yours.

I have said many times that upon leaving the Methodists I never turned back to complain about the way they run their religion or sought to correct them. My relationship with my Methodist family remains respectful and loving. If you find responses from Mormons to be hostile you may want to ask what your role is in that interaction.

[KevinG]

As not to derail this thread I asked the question in a new post...

[Loran Blood]

What about them? There is no record of Joseph Smith claiming that he translated the Kinderhook plates by divine means, nor is there any first-hand account of Joseph talking about the plates at all. Furthermore, current scholarship shows that apparently Joseph correctly translated at least one character on the plates using the GAEL, but he seemed to have either gotten bored with them or realized they were fake because he showed absolutely no interest in them after that.

What are we left with now?

Nothing. The Kinderhook Plates are a non-issue with any but the very, very desparate.

[wenglund]

The better question to me is, what kind of things can be done to encourage former members to return to the faith, though things that won't also inadvertantly detract from or negate the intent and purpose of the restored gospel?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited February 6, 2012 by wenglund

[Lightbearer]

Another thread got me thinking about this idea. Is there anything the LDS Church could do to attract members back. (specifically members that have left over historical or doctrinal issues - not those that have simply faded into inactivity)

The truth is that I don't think there is anything they could do to get me back. That ship has left the dock and I don't see it turning around.

I do think there are some things the LDS Church could do to keep current members from leaving but that is probably a different topic all together.

What about you? Is there something you see that the LDS Church could do differently that would bring back the apostates?

Who says the Church would want them back if they do not repent of their unbelief? If they were deceived then call them back to their former faith with love and friendship, and if they are hard core apostates then chances are they are sons of perdition who would not and cannot be restored anyway... so I guess this is hard to determine we as active memebers can offer our hand in fellowship to those who want to return to the love of God and if they do not we can just bid them an everlasting farewell until we meet at the judgment bar of Christ. The fact is God will draw them back to His true Church if they desire His righteousness and if not then they will be lost. Sad but that is the only way we can do it and have our agency. God will not save anyone against their will. It was the same in the pre-mortal life when Satan and the one third host was cast out... in this second estate we still must choose either liberty and eternal life or eternal damnation. So really the Church is just the Standard bearer, the Ensign to the nations, it is up to the individual to choose.

[Brade]

Who says the Church would want them back if they do not repent of their unbelief? If they were deceived then call them back to their former faith with love and friendship, and if they are hard core apostates then chances are they are sons of perdition who would not and cannot be restored anyway... so I guess this is hard to determine we as active memebers can offer our hand in fellowship to those who want to return to the love of God and if they do not we can just bid them an everlasting farewell until we meet at the judgment bar of Christ. The fact is God will draw them back to His true Church if they desire His righteousness and if not then they will be lost. Sad but that is the only way we can do it and have our agency. God will not save anyone against their will. It was the same in the pre-mortal life when Satan and the one third host was cast out... in this second estate we still must choose either liberty and eternal life or eternal damnation. So really the Church is just the Standard bearer, the Ensign to the nations, it is up to the individual to choose.

Are beliefs voluntary? If I really wanted to, could I, at this very moment, choose to sincerely believe that the Book of Mormon is a historical document, or that Jesus is the son of God?

[mfbukowski]

Are beliefs voluntary? If I really wanted to, could I, at this very moment, choose to sincerely believe that the Book of Mormon is a historical document, or that Jesus is the son of God?

That's actually a very interesting question

[Avatar4321]

Just make all the commnadments, policies, doctrines, counsel, standards, and ordinances optional. Make them all religious "lifestyle options," and allow an open bar at church weddings.

You won't be able to keep them away.

Actually, it's the exact opposite. You wont get anyone to stay.

[Avatar4321]

Nothing. The Kinderhook Plates are a non-issue with any but the very, very desparate.

The ignorant as well.

[Avatar4321]

Are beliefs voluntary? If I really wanted to, could I, at this very moment, choose to sincerely believe that the Book of Mormon is a historical document, or that Jesus is the son of God?

Yes

[Storm Rider]

Are beliefs voluntary? If I really wanted to, could I, at this very moment, choose to sincerely believe that the Book of Mormon is a historical document, or that Jesus is the son of God?

I think hope is voluntary, belief is more built on faith, but does seem to have more flexibility to it. You know the definition of faith as well as I do and true faith is strongre than belief. Hope is one of the great virtues identified by early apostles and it is an important part of conversion to the gospel of Chirst. When all else fails have hope, cling to the rod, and keep taking one more step forward.

[Calm]

I think beliefs can be changed voluntarily if one intentionally changes the environment of belief. Otherwise such things as cognitive therapy and other psychological treatments would never work. Of course, change would take time and likely occur in small increments.

The scriptures teach this when they relate faith (and thus eventually belief and knowledge which come from faith) to a seed that grows depending on how it is nurtured.

Edited February 6, 2012 by calmoriah

[Brade]

Yes

Cool. I challenge you to sincerely believe this very moment that you are a bat.

[sethpayne]

Cool. I challenge you to sincerely believe this very moment that you are a bat.

Brade,

You raise a very interesting question: Are beliefs a choice?

I would say that yes, beliefs are a choice. However, I believe it is important to add that our beliefs are choices -- constrained by our personal understanding of the world. We make the choice to believe X or Y based on our education, parents, friends, experiences etc...

Seth

Edited February 6, 2012 by sethpayne