Agitating Faithfully

[Glenn101]

If women are ever to hold the priesthood just as the men do, it will come via a revelation and not due to political pressure or "agitation" from within or without the church. I do not have an opinion as to whether that will ever happen or not. I am just prepared to accept what is God's will as revealed to anointed prophets.

Glenn

[Jeff K.]

Here here.... aside from the "agitation" what exactly is the compelling need in place to request the priesthood from Heavenly Father? Will souls be in jeopardy?

It wouldn't bother me the least if Heavenly Father decided to do so, but is there a need to request it?

If there is no compelling need then I must ask... "I have chest hair, would the sisters like to have chest hair too?"

Edited January 6, 2012 by Jeff K.

[katherine the great]

If there is no compelling need then I must ask... "I have chest hair, would the sisters like to have chest hair too?"

Maybe we already have it. I guess you'll never know...

[Nominee]

Here here.... aside from the "agitation" what exactly is the compelling need in place to request the priesthood from Heavenly Father? Will souls be in jeopardy?

It wouldn't bother me the least if Heavenly Father decided to do so, but is there a need to request it?

If there is no compelling need then I must ask... "I have chest hair, would the sisters like to have chest hair too?"

I really do want a righteous answer to that question also. Why do the brothers think the sisters need to have the Priesthood? I don't care to be compared to a zoo animal but I am content as are most women on this subject. On this board as well as in my local area, it is always the men that want things changed, not the women. Even Buckeye, who started this topic, had to admit when asked that it is him that has a problem with it. His wife is content. Every single woman who has posted here has made it perfectly clear that they do not feel jipped, denied, cheated, or lesser in anyway. What is the problem then? Here's something to think on: The prophets and apostles have spoke on the matter, we need more worthy men. The men are struggling to live up to their responsibilities, young men are putting off marriage and families, elders struggle to follow through on something as simple yet awesome as home teaching. IMHO, that last thing in the world that men need right now is one more excuse to shirk their God given responsibilities! We are depending on the brothers to live worthily to provide these blessings for all. What is so bad about that?! Sometimes the things we are asked to do for others is as much for our benefit as it is for the receiving party. You guys need the priesthood as much as we girls need you. Be men, be worthy, serve at the first inconvenient moment and let the women do their jobs and fill their "roles." It is a little suspicious to have men discussing how they think women should have the priesthood (edit: or how unfair it is that we don't have it) when the women are disagreeing with you. What is your motivation? Honestly, the more it gets discussed the more I realize how right God is and how wrong women having the Priesthood would be ~ because of what men need! Not because of what women don't need.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Nominee

[Kenngo1969]

I do it all the time with my husband!

You Rebel, you!

[Jeff K.]

Maybe we already have it. I guess you'll never know...

That is possible, from what I have read women may already have it.

[Jeff K.]

I really do want a righteous answer to that question also. Why do the brothers think the sisters need to have the Priesthood? I don't care to be compared to a zoo animal but I am content as are most women on this subject. On this board as well as in my local area, it is always the men that want things changed, not the women. Even Buckeye, who started this topic, had to admit when asked that it is him that has a problem with it. His wife is content. Every single woman who has posted here has made it perfectly clear that they do not feel jipped, denied, cheated, or lesser in anyway. What is the problem then? Here's something to think on: The prophets and apostles have spoke on the matter, we need more worthy men. The men are struggling to live up to their responsibilities, young men are putting off marriage and families, elders struggle to follow through on something as simple yet awesome as home teaching. IMHO, that last thing in the world that men need right now is one more excuse to shirk their God given responsibilities! We are depending on the brothers to live worthily to provide these blessings for all. What is so bad about that?! Sometimes the things we are asked to do for others is as much for our benefit as it is for the receiving party. You guys need the priesthood as much as we girls need you. Be men, be worthy, serve at the first inconvenient moment and let the women do their jobs and fill their "roles." It is a little suspicious to have men discussing how they think women should have the priesthood (edit: or how unfair it is that we don't have it) when the women are disagreeing with you. What is your motivation? Honestly, the more it gets discussed the more I realize how right God is and how wrong women having the Priesthood would be ~ because of what men need! Not because of what women don't need.

I believe at times everyone struggles to be worthy of their commitments. I don't see that as a compelling need to expand the priesthood powers beyond their present parameters anymore than the decrease in birthrates means men should now be able to bear children. When I discuss priesthood and women holding it, I look for things from Heavenly Father that indicate the priesthood and women might indeed be needed. I attempt to see how many more souls would enter the straight and narrow path. I certianly haven't seen it yet. Men and women have different struggles, and they overcome different obstacles in their life. I do agree that we must be righteous men, in that we must be worthy of the priesthood and as importantly, raise our children to seek those worthy of the priesthood as well as be worthy themselves.

[TAO]

I'm getting the impression from several of the responses, that there really isn't anything 'special', where the rubber meets the road, about holding the priesthood

No, there is... it's that the people who have the responsibility, and duty to hold the priesthood... are held accountable for it. They will be held accountable for their chioce of whether to hold it or not.

Edited January 6, 2012 by TAO

[Nominee]

I believe at times everyone struggles to be worthy of their commitments. I don't see that as a compelling need to expand the priesthood powers beyond their present parameters anymore than the decrease in birthrates means men should now be able to bear children. When I discuss priesthood and women holding it, I look for things from Heavenly Father that indicate the priesthood and women might indeed be needed. I attempt to see how many more souls would enter the straight and narrow path. I certianly haven't seen it yet. Men and women have different struggles, and they overcome different obstacles in their life. I do agree that we must be righteous men, in that we must be worthy of the priesthood and as importantly, raise our children to seek those worthy of the priesthood as well as be worthy themselves.

I think we are in agreement. I too "don't see that as a compelling need to expand the priesthood powers beyond their present parameters" ~quite the contrary, my argument would be that it is a very good explanation for why not to expand.

[katherine the great]

You Rebel, you!

I confess. I was born in Charleston...

[Jeff K.]

I confess. I was born in Charleston...

Beautiful city, tragic past, nice people

[Jeff K.]

Any woman who is fine with being subordinated, and doesn't feel cheated by being constrained to a role of submission, is not a feminist, but I'm not going to judge her if her confinement is a consensual choice. Most Muslim women who are required, under conservative Islam, to wear a burqa, to remain illiterate, and to never leave their home without a male escort are probably fine with that arrangement. So if they don't see a problem, then why should we expect them to participate in their own liberation? The real problem is when there is a Muslim woman, or a Mormon woman, who does not feel the religious call to take on a role of submitting to male domination. Such a woman is confined to a role that was not designed for her.

Histrionics without basis in fact. The priesthood does not make anyone superior. To presume such is to have no understanding of what the priesthood is. The rest of the post just seems to be a weak attempt to portray women who don't agree with the desire to obtain the priesthood as weak, and submissive when in fact the priesthood has nothing to do with the submission of women, if anything the priesthood does deal with the submission of men, to follow Christ. But maybe for some submission to anyone is an impossibility.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Jeff K.

[Hestia]

Cobalt's disrespectful remarks have been removed and he isn't participating any further on this thread.

[Jeff K.]

If feminism is about simply having what everyone else has, then its proponents will never be satisfied, running from issue to issue, often demanding what cannot be given. But I think such a definition of feminism is a false one, and like a few radicals in the Islamic world, they tend to get the press with their unreasonableness.

[Kenngo1969]

I confess. I was born in Charleston...

That explains a lot about you!

[katherine the great]

That explains a lot about you!

We only lived there for three months, but still...it's in my blood!

[Frenchy]

In my opinion it's possible the brethern need more opportunites to excerise their current priesthood authority. Opportunities to grow and strengthen their testimony. The sisters already have enough work making sure the brethren remain worthy to perform their priesthood responsibilites.

[Acris Venator]

I really do want a righteous answer to that question also. Why do the brothers think the sisters need to have the Priesthood? I don't care to be compared to a zoo animal but I am content as are most women on this subject. On this board as well as in my local area, it is always the men that want things changed, not the women. Even Buckeye, who started this topic, had to admit when asked that it is him that has a problem with it. His wife is content. Every single woman who has posted here has made it perfectly clear that they do not feel jipped, denied, cheated, or lesser in anyway. What is the problem then?

The problem is LDS men are, generally speaking, wilting beneath the heat of the gender politics that they encounter in an increasingly 2nd wave world. One of the main questions regarding any organization, not just the Church, is how women are treated within the organization. So Buckeye's desire... and that that of other LDS men who bring up the issue... is par for the course of a culture that is being swayed by the negative aspects of 2nd wave feminism.

What is the 2nd wave concerned with? Ever since Betty Friedan wrote The Feminine Mystique the 2nd wave has been asserting a lens that generally identifies objectification of women, language and apparatus that relegate women to 2nd class status, going to war with patriarchy as a standard operating procedure, and questioning the value of monogamy.

Two of the above are vital. To identify and eradicate objectification and processes that make women unequal with men are actually Christ-like acts. Women are not objects, and they are not 2nd class humans. The latter two elements of the 2nd wave are where we encounter static with the Church. If you go to war with patriarchy in the mainstream Church, you accomplish nothing. Questioning the value of monogamy is likewise unsustainable in Christ's construct, and these two elements are precisely what have made feminism an "f-word" in our culture for the last 50 years. These are the factors that bring the "femi-nazi" archetype into play, and thus render these discussions mostly useless and ineffective.

The good aspects of feminism (rights, suffrage, & the former two listed above) are actually part of the lens that the temple provides. This is instructive because the temple teaches us that both sexes must be ennobled and endowed simultaneously.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Acris Venator

[Calm]

In my opinion it's possible the brethern need more opportunites to excerise their current priesthood authority. Opportunities to grow and strengthen their testimony. The sisters already have enough work making sure the brethren remain worthy to perform their priesthood responsibilites.

"[M]aking sure the brethren remain worthy"? I find that as silly as the idea that somehow women are not accountable for their own sins. If a man has to rely on a woman to ensure he's worthy, giving him---not only the weaker sex, but the nondeserving one-----the power and authority of God would be insane and totally inappropriate. The world is about accountability. I personally think Satan's plan was to set things up so people weren't accountable (the theme he still preaches "don't worry about sinning, God doesn't really mind all that much and will forgive all your little indulgences and selfishnesses). Anything that diminishes a person's sense of accountability is against God's plan of progression for us, imo.

[Nominee]

"[M]aking sure the brethren remain worthy"? I find that as silly as the idea that somehow women are not accountable for their own sins. If a man has to rely on a woman to ensure he's worthy, giving him---not only the weaker sex, but the nondeserving one-----the power and authority of God would be insane and totally inappropriate. The world is about accountability. I personally think Satan's plan was to set things up so people weren't accountable (the theme he still preaches "don't worry about sinning, God doesn't really mind all that much and will forgive all your little indulgences and selfishnesses). Anything that diminishes a person's sense of accountability is against God's plan of progression for us, imo.

I took what Frenchy said to be a fun way of pointing out how much we need each other. We should be helping one another to remain worthy always, all of us. I feel respected and cherished as an LDS woman. I am constantly reminded of my importance and shown deep gratitude for all that I do , even have the ability to do. As sisters we do SO MUCH and I appreciate rather than resent when the brethren say, "What would you like us to do now?" My brethren lift me up and for their support I am thankful. To the worthy LDS men out there, thank you for being so grateful, supportive, humble, and considerate of your sisters in church. Thank you for recognizing how important our position is and respecting our power always. My cup overflows. Thank you for accepting direction, providing means, and making all things possible through the power of the holy priesthood.

[Calm]

If that is what Frenchy meant, then I would agree wholeheartedly. In that way we each help each other to be worthy of whatever God would have us do.

[Nominee]

If that is what Frenchy meant, then I would agree wholeheartedly. In that way we each help each other to be worthy of whatever God would have us do.

That's what I'm talking about!

[Nominee]

A friend showed me this talk recently. I just posted it to another thread and then thought of this one. This is a great talk by Nibley!

[wenglund]

In terms of taking logical steps towards a desired goal, I am wondering if Dane Laverty would be better advise to begin agitating faithfully for permitting women to wear pant suites and then pants to church, before attempting to agitate faithfully for women receiving the priesthood?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[jcake]

As a woman, I feel blessed that with all I am responsible to do, I at least don't have to shoulder the responsibilities of the priesthood that the men do. But, I get to enjoy all of the blessings of the priesthood as I am served by the men of the priesthood. I can't even fathom why some women would want to hold the priesthood. There is so much for them to do as it is. Good heavens!