Joseph Smith As Author

[why me]

Alexander Campbell famously noted that the Book of Mormon contained “every error and almost every truth discussed in N[ew] York for the last ten years.... [smith] decides all the great controversies”—including “republican government.” Richard Bushman has countered that “Nephite culture was never republican insofar as the Book of Mormon describes government.” However, that being said, Captain Moroni clearly does embody the Jacksonian republican ideal. He opposes the "king-men" by rallying the people around a "title of liberty" and declares to Pahoran: “I seek not for power, but to pull it down. I seek not for honor of the world, but for the glory of my God, and the freedom and welfare of my country" (Alma 60:36).

Of course, if campbell were correct, many more would have seen it and responded accordingly. For the early members of the church, they would have heard all cons when it came to the book of mormon but it seems not to have phased them at all. I see people leaving the church in the early days mainly over JS and not the book of mormon. Whatever campbell thought it seemed to make no impact with the early members. For some reason, they just didn't see it or had a satisfactory explaination to counter it.

[why me]

your post assumes that Joseph found leadership in the Legion a burden. What evidence of this do you have? You don't seem to have entertained the possibility that Joseph found leadership in the Legion enjoyable. This would be entirely consistentwith both society at large, which put a premium on honour and show of might, and the way that Nauvoo was depicted in particular.

I believe that he had much on his plate for a young guy. I can not see him relishing in the militia. In fact, I have this feeling that he really just wanted the mobs to go away and to have the mormons left alone to worship their faith in god. How much useless energy was wasted by mob culture and the lds response to it? Much. What was accomplised at the time of JS is quite astonishing when we consider the time spent with mob threats. The militia was just one more burdensome response.

[Nevo]

This give me another opportunity to assail the head in the hat story. Joseph Smith never said that he translated it that way. And it seems most improbable, for a scribe to figure out what Joseph Smith might be saying on some difficult and technical religious verbiage while he is speaking into his hat. Exactly what is the source of this theory?

The "head in the hat story" comes from the following individuals, most (if not all) of whom were eyewitnesses:

• Emma Smith (EMD 1:539)
  
• Joseph Knight, Sr. (EMD 4:17-18)
  
• Isaac Hale (EMD 4:287)
  
• Michael Morse (EMD 4:341-342)
  
• David Whitmer (EMD 5:59; 76; 196-197)
  
• Elizabeth Ann Whitmer (EMD 5:260)
  

Martin Harris also reported that this was the method that Joseph used to find lost objects with his seer stone (EMD 2:303).

[Edited to add Emma Smith]

Edited December 11, 2011 by Nevo

[why me]

The "head in the hat story" comes from the following individuals, most (if not all) of whom were eyewitnesses:

• Joseph Knight, Sr. (EMD 4:17-18)
  
• Isaac Hale (EMD 4:287)
  
• Michael Morse (EMD 4:341-342)
  
• David Whitmer (EMD 5:59; 76; 196-197)
  
• Elizabeth Ann Whitmer (EMD 5:260)
  

Martin Harris also reported that this was the method that Joseph used to find lost objects with his seer stone (EMD 2:303).

And of course for the people who witnessed it, it seems to have been a clincher that the translation process was done by the power of god. Here is the point: the pictures of the process drawn by the critics seem to make fun of the process. But for those who witnessed it, it was done by the power of god. So, it must have been quite a faith building sight.

[volgadon]

I believe that he had much on his plate for a young guy. I can not see him relishing in the militia. In fact, I have this feeling that he really just wanted the mobs to go away and to have the mormons left alone to worship their faith in god. How much useless energy was wasted by mob culture and the lds response to it? Much. What was accomplised at the time of JS is quite astonishing when we consider the time spent with mob threats. The militia was just one more burdensome response.

The militia was far more than a mere response to the mob. Joseph was the leader of a community at a time when it was expected that the community take part in the defence of the nation. Military rank was also a status symbol, and went along with the concept of honour without which it was unthinkable to be a proud American. Joseph himself sat for the portrait MM posted, nobody coerced himinto it. I'll ask again. Are you able to substantiate your assertion that Joseph considered the Legion an unwelcome burden?

[Honorentheos]

And of course for the people who witnessed it, it seems to have been a clincher that the translation process was done by the power of god. Here is the point: the pictures of the process drawn by the critics seem to make fun of the process. But for those who witnessed it, it was done by the power of god. So, it must have been quite a faith building sight.

Of some concern related to this issue is the matter of tight-vs-loose translation of the Book of Mormon. In general, the use of the seer stones in the hat are associated with Joseph being given the words and in come cases the spelling from the account of the Nephites. Yet many who have considered the Book of Mormon in total feel that Joseph also had to be given some leeway in order to explain concerns such as the propogation of biblical translation errors.

I think we interject our own preference when we make statements such as "...for those who witnessed it, it was done by the power of god. So, it must have been quite a faith building sight." We don't really know this. I'd suggest that Isaac Hale is highly unlikely to have seen Joseph's actions in this manner. As to the others, we don't really know. I've already mentioned that Emma's testimony where this occurs is known to be false. Even if she made the statement, I don't know that we can tell what she thought in her heart of hearts.

[altersteve]

I think we interject our own preference when we make statements such as "...for those who witnessed it, it was done by the power of god. So, it must have been quite a faith building sight." We don't really know this.

You mean you don't really know this. But those of us who have received a witness from God that this is the case, and remember receiving such a witness, do know it.

[Nevo]

You mean you don't really know this. But those of us who have received a witness from God that this is the case, and remember receiving such a witness, do know it.

I think you've misread Honorentheos. The issue was whether, as per why me, Joseph Smith's translation method "must have been quite a faith building sight" for those who witnessed it. As Honorentheos recognized, why me was simply talking through his hat here. It was clearly not faith-building for two of the witnesses. In fact, Isaac Hale listed it as one of his reasons for concluding that Joseph Smith was a fraud ("The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time in the woods!"). Michael Morse, Joseph's brother-in-law, also remained a non-believer in Joseph Smith's gift.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Nevo

[why me]

As Honorentheos recognized, why me was simply talking through his hat here. It was clearly not faith-building for two of the witnesses. In fact, Isaac Hale listed it as one of his reasons for concluding that Joseph Smith was a fraud ("The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time in the woods!"). Michael Morse, Joseph's brother-in-law, also remained a non-believer in Joseph Smith's gift.

And yet it worked just fine for david whitmer, emma smith and oliver. Now for those on the edge, I can see it not working. But for those who were involved, it worked quite well. You do know what oliver said about those times, right? Now of course, the vision of the plates was also necessary. But when we put them both together...it worked quite well.

[why me]

Of some concern related to this issue is the matter of tight-vs-loose translation of the Book of Mormon. In general, the use of the seer stones in the hat are associated with Joseph being given the words and in come cases the spelling from the account of the Nephites. Yet many who have considered the Book of Mormon in total feel that Joseph also had to be given some leeway in order to explain concerns such as the propogation of biblical translation errors.

I think we interject our own preference when we make statements such as "...for those who witnessed it, it was done by the power of god. So, it must have been quite a faith building sight." We don't really know this. I'd suggest that Isaac Hale is highly unlikely to have seen Joseph's actions in this manner. As to the others, we don't really know. I've already mentioned that Emma's testimony where this occurs is known to be false. Even if she made the statement, I don't know that we can tell what she thought in her heart of hearts.

And what about oliver? And of course, you do wish to discount emma. And what about oliver asking for a try and failing? I think that that worked just fine. But I think that daniel peterson explains the process quite well in his ariticle here:

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2001_Divine_Source_of_the_Book_of_Mormon_in_the_Face_of_Alternative_Theories.html

I think that for those who were directly involved, it was a wonderful experience and a wonderful time.

[Programmer]

Joseph Smith could never had written the Book of Mormon. I've seen his hand writing, and his grammar of some of his early journal writings. It was primitive. Now mind you he didn't end up that way by the time he died when he was 38 years old.

Anyways, he could never had written that book.

The dichotomy is simply too great. I've read the Book of Mormon, and it is too complex, too different from what you expect on the frontier of 1820, and too difficult for someone like him to write.

Him writing that book at his young age is equivalent to:

1. A young uneducated person writing a software program / app over the course of a few years and only compiling once. And this by a person who has never programmed before!! Simply IMPOSSIBLE.

2. A young uneducated person writing a significant scientific paper in the field of physics, without getting a college education, nor doing work in the scientific lab.

I've read that book numerous times, and there is nothing in that book that would offend an HONEST christian. The only people who won't read it are the ones who have been deceived by liars who have lied about the book. If an honest christian read it, they would be grateful for the truths contained in it. For it will change their life. (The word of God has that effect on people). I read the book when I was 13, therefore I see no reason that grown adults can't read the book.

[Bernard Gui]

Also of interest is what is not in the Book of Mormon...

If it is supposed to be a history of the ancestors of American Indians

written in the early 1800's, one should reasonably expect Joseph Smith

to use the the normal vocabulary of contemporary American writers who

described the Native Americans.

For example, Fenimore Cooper, Washington Irving, Solomon Spalding,

Ethan Smith, Mark Twain, Henry Longfellow, Herman Melville, and many other early to

mid-18th century writers shared a common vocabulary that is not found

in the Book of Mormon.

These words, among others, were commonly used when writing fictional or

factual accounts of the Native Americans in the early 1800's:

tomahawk, tobacco, wigwam, teepee, canoe, medicine, wampum, fur, feather,

bead, shell, eagle, buffalo, crow, beaver, deer, elk, moccasin, breeches, drums, pottery,

counting coup, braves, warriors, war dance, singing, flutes, corn dance, arrowhead, flint,

wickiup, fire water, forest, woodland, plains, natives, savages, wrestling, fishing

None of the above writers described Native American skin color as dark or black.

Red, brown, and copper were the commonly used descriptors.

Why did Joseph Smith not use this vocabulary in the Book of Mormon?

Bernard

Edited December 13, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[cdowis]

Good observation. I note with interest that the Lamanites and wine were associated.

Do we read among JS contemporaries about the Indians drinking wine?

[volgadon]

Is anyone going to substantiate the assertion that Joseph was uninterested in military matters?

[why me]

Is anyone going to substantiate the assertion that Joseph was uninterested in military matters?

Do you think that joseph would have donned a military uniform if the mobs weren't persecuting the mormons? Of if antimormon militias were not being organized? I don't think that he would have dressed in military dress.

[LeSellers]

Do you think that joseph would have donned a military uniform if the mobs weren't persecuting the mormons? Of if antimormon militias were not being organized? I don't think that he would have dressed in military dress.

I believe you are wrong.

It was the law in Illinois (and all other states, for that matter) that able-bodied men aged 18~35 (approximately, the ages were different in different jurisdictions) to be a part of the militia. Joseph was exempt (because of his leg), but he joined anyway. He was voted the commander and, because of the size of the Nauvoo Legion, was made a lieutenant general.

He loved the pomp of the military, but he was deadly serious about the purposes of the militia: to protect against all sorts of predatory acts, not just those of the anti-mormons around them. In 1840, when the Nauvoo Legion was formed, and when Joseph joined it (he was not the CinC at that point as there was no commander), the Saints had no particular fear of antis. The neighbors were at peace with them, there were no barn burnings or attacks. Yet, under Joseph's command, the militia was well-trained, and drilled every Wednesday night.

Joseph was not a trained soldier, nor was he an educated officer, but the Nauvoo Legion was well respected throughout Illinois and much of the country in 1844 due in no small part to his leadership and military bearing.

Lehi

[why me]

I believe you are wrong.

He loved the pomp of the military, but he was deadly serious about the purposes of the militia: to protect against all sorts of predatory acts, not just those of the anti-mormons around them. In 1840, when the Nauvoo Legion was formed, and when Joseph joined it (he was not the CinC at that point as there was no commander), the Saints had no particular fear of antis.

Joseph was not a trained soldier, nor was he an educated officer, but the Nauvoo Legion was well respected throughout Illinois and much of the country in 1844 due in no small part to his leadership and military bearing.

Lehi

You are correct up to a point. On the FAIR site is says:

How did things go, legally, in Illinois? At first, very well! 1840 may have been the happiest year of Joseph's life. Despite a lack of political success on a trip to Washington, D.C., for redress, then the death of his father that fall, Joseph was free, both from jail and from lawsuits. They had friendly neighbors, missionary successes abroad, the start of another temple and the building of a great city!

Much of this was made possible by the city's incorporation under a very generous state charter. The state legislature granted the saints their own militia--the Nauvoo Legion with about 3,000 men, armed and dangerous.

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2006_Legal_Trials_of_Joseph_Smith.html

I cannot help but wonder if such a militia would have been planned if the saints were allowed to practice their faith in peace in new york, ohio and missouri. I see no militia on the horizon if so. I believe that the legion was an unintended consequence of the persecution in the past. But I could be wrong.

[cdowis]

Much of this was made possible by the city's incorporation under a very generous state charter. The state legislature granted the saints their own militia--the Nauvoo Legion with about 3,000 men, armed and dangerous.

http://www.fairlds.o...seph_Smith.html

I cannot help but wonder if such a militia would have been planned if the saints were allowed to practice their faith in peace in new york, ohio and missouri. I see no militia on the horizon if so. I believe that the legion was an unintended consequence of the persecution in the past. But I could be wrong.

I read some research (somewhere) that Nauvoo was not particularly unique in its charter at the time.

[cdowis]

Is anyone going to substantiate the assertion that Joseph was uninterested in military matters?

He was carrying only one gun in the Carthage jail.

[Bernard Gui]

Is anyone going to substantiate the assertion that Joseph was uninterested in military matters?

How and when did he learn about the military strategy and tactics described in the Book of Mormon?

Bernard

Edited December 14, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Recently I read something written by Joseph Smith (other than scriptures) and the lack of poetic language was in the stark contrast too BOM; D&C and PoGP. It actually helps reinforce my disbelief that Joseph wrote the scripture with anything less than inspiration.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[altersteve]

Is anyone going to substantiate the assertion that Joseph was uninterested in military matters?

Come on. I obviously meant that at the time the Book of Mormon was being translated, and before, he clearly wasn't interested in it enough to make me believe he wrote the Book of Mormon. He didn't know about it, and I see nothing in what he wrote to show that he did. I even acknowledged that he dressed in uniform and led the Nauvoo Legion, but this doesn't mean he cared or knew enough about it to write the detailed campaigns described in the Book of Alma, for instance.

I stand by what I said.

[volgadon]

Come on. I obviously meant that at the time the Book of Mormon was being translated, and before, he clearly wasn't interested in it enough to make me believe he wrote the Book of Mormon. He didn't know about it, and I see nothing in what he wrote to show that he did.

What writings of Joseph's do we really posses from that period which would allow you to take such a firm stance? I've asked several times for something that substantiates your stance. All I'm getting is the same argument ex silentio. Card was inaccurate in handling Joseph's military interest in his later years, so on what grounds do we assume that he is correct on Joseph's earlier years?

As for Joseph not knowing anything about war, consider the following. Joseph's family was aware of events connected with the Napoleonic Wars, and took enough of an interest to name a son after one of the victors. His family also took part in the American War of Independence, which was a defining moment for the USA, then and now. There was a war from 1812-15, much of which took place in the North-Eastern states. Why do you think that news reports and exploits were shared everywhere but in the Smith home? This isn't even considering other possible sources such as the Bible, Apocrypha, and Josephus.

I even acknowledged that he dressed in uniform and led the Nauvoo Legion, but this doesn't mean he cared or knew enough about it to write the detailed campaigns described in the Book of Alma, for instance.

I stand by what I said.

Yet Joseph led a military expedition (Zion's Camp) and planned such events as mock battles with the Nauvoo Legion. It goes beyond merely wearing a uniform.

Are you going to substantiate your assertion?

Edited December 15, 2011 by volgadon

[altersteve]

What writings of Joseph's do we really posses from that period which would allow you to take such a firm stance? I've asked several times for something that substantiates your stance. All I'm getting is the same argument ex silentio. Card was inaccurate in handling Joseph's military interest in his later years, so on what grounds do we assume that he is correct on Joseph's earlier years?

As for Joseph not knowing anything about war, consider the following. Joseph's family was aware of events connected with the Napoleonic Wars, and took enough of an interest to name a son after one of the victors. His family also took part in the American War of Independence, which was a defining moment for the USA, then and now. There was a war from 1812-15, much of which took place in the North-Eastern states. Why do you think that news reports and exploits were shared everywhere but in the Smith home? This isn't even considering other possible sources such as the Bible, Apocrypha, and Josephus.

Yet Joseph led a military expedition (Zion's Camp) and planned such events as mock battles with the Nauvoo Legion. It goes beyond merely wearing a uniform.

Are you going to substantiate your assertion?

I never said he didn't know anything about war. I said I don't see anything that suggests he knew much about military campaigns, and how they are planned and executed, at the time that the Book of Mormon was being translated. He certainly knew about them later; I'm not denying that. But I don't see anything to make me believe that he knew enough about this subject, at the time of the Book of Mormon's translation and prior, that he could have authored the Book of Alma, for example (and the many details of military campaigns and battle tactics described therein), nor do I think he really cared enough about it to do so. This is NOT saying that he didn't know or care about war.

This is my opinion based on the information that I am aware of.

Edited December 15, 2011 by altersteve

[Calm]

From what I have read, altersteve is talking about the difference between a casual interest and a devoted one, something similar to someone who likes to watch war movies and read war novels, even play video games about historical wars but is not interested enough to get into studying the technical aspect of the battles, who moved what where and when and why, it is not some kind of hobby of the young Joseph. Thus if the battles in the BoM reflect actual military tactics, that knowledge came from somewhere else in his view than JS's personal knowledge and experience. He likely sees what is going on in the BoM to be technical enough that such knowledge in a young man would be noticeable or at least the effort he put into studying such things. Since there is no evidence of such diligent study, he sees it as fair to assume a lack of intense and devoted interest.

Edited December 15, 2011 by calmoriah