Internet Anti-Mormonism

[Storm Rider]

Yup. But that is just how some people like to play.

We agree that bullying is wrong. We disagree on what constitutes bullying, or whether bullying directed towards LDS is a pervasive problem.

Yes, but it strikes me that the most incendiary comments directed towards Mormons and your church come from former Mormons, not gay right advocates.

Jay, do you think the same could be said of the Catholic Church also? They have been quite active in doing the same thing that the LDS Church has done.

[Sky]

Most current Mormons (including myself) are probably gay rights advocates too.

If this includes supporting gay marriage, that is certainly news to me.

[Sky]

Here is an article by Joanna Brooks. I don’t agree with her on everything, but this should help generate some good discussion, particularly the part where she asks if "increased media attention will advance understanding or indulge the sensationalism that has followed Mormonism for 180 years."

Still Uncertain About Mormonism After 180 Years: Why Voters Need Coverage Of The Faith That Moves Beyond Sensationalism

[KevinG]

...if an LDS Church in scranton, PA burned down two weeks ago, you would know, and likely suspect it was the result of anti-mormon persecution.

,,,or a Boy Scout meeting.

[Sky]

More good reading...

Making Fun of Mormonism

[Daniel Peterson]

The Mormons are largely ignored until their organization finds itself involved in politics,

That hasn't been my experience.

Mormons are attacked in newspaper comments sections when they involve themselves in politics, yes, but also when they involve themselves in sports, when they involve themselves in entertainment, when they build a building, when they do missionary work, essentially when they breathe.

Just be glad you aren't a Muslim and some of your innocent people aren't being held without due process and tortured while even the Mormons stand by and do nothing. Some Mormons even support it.

I'm mildly curious about what specific incidents you have in mind.

All in all, the Mormons are not treated any worse than any other group.

I don't think this is true. I'm not aware of very much anti-Methodist material in newspaper comment sections. I don't see many letters to the editor denouncing Presbyterians, Quakers, or Lutherans. I don't even see very many that attack Buddhists or Baha’is or Sikhs, let alone Catholics or Jews.

[TAO]

Sky, I think altersteve means in the sense that we believe that housing and other basic things shouldn't be based on their sexuality. (I'm just guessing though, not sure).

Marriage is a different issue though, of course. But I don't think alter was referring to that aspect of gay advocacy (or at least I hope he wasn't =P).

Best of Wishes,

-TAO

Edited December 6, 2011 by TAO

[Lost in Ohio]

All in all, the Mormons are not treated any worse than any other group.

I always find this statement interesting. It seems to be the consistent first resort in a morally bankrupt effort to justify the ridiculous treatment of the Church by people who ought, and often do know better, and act like bigots anyway. I guess it soothes a guilty conscience. It is second only to the old stand-by "Well if the Church hadn't _________(fill in the blank) they wouldn't have brought it on themselves!" argument to justify the consistent bearing of false witness.

"The culture of the people in the church is far different compared to most people in America and most people in the world. It is only natural that the Mormon culture draws criticism and negative attention."

Really? Wow I hadn't realized that my culture was so different and apparantly at odds with my neighbors - I'll have to let them know right away so they can full ostracize me since, apparantly according to you, its only natural that I be criticized and ridiculed.

[thesometimesaint]

Daniel Peterson:

While torture was/is condemned by the Church. Some members approved of it. Jay Bybee comes to mind.

[california boy]

Most current Mormons (including myself) are probably gay rights advocates too.

lol what world are you living in??

[Daniel Peterson]

While torture was/is condemned by the Church. Some members approved of it. Jay Bybee comes to mind.

Ah. I thought that he was, maybe, referring to something a bit clearer than that, and maybe to something more plainly related to Islam as such. (I don't see terrorism as uniquely or specifically Islamic, and I certainly don't see Islam as equivalent to terrorism.)

There are, anyway, all sorts of issues involved in the Bybee matter: Does he in any way represent Mormonism? Are "enhanced interrogation techniques" torture? Are non-uniformed terrorists entitled to protection under the Geneva convention?

But those are subjects for another board, not just another thread.

[Jaybear]

I always find this statement interesting. It seems to be the consistent first resort in a morally bankrupt effort to justify the ridiculous treatment of the Church by people who ought, and often do know better, and act like bigots anyway. I guess it soothes a guilty conscience. It is second only to the old stand-by "Well if the Church hadn't _________(fill in the blank) they wouldn't have brought it on themselves!" argument to justify the consistent bearing of false witness.

Moral bankrupt? No need to get personal.

No one here is seeking to "justify" incivility directed towards Mormons or any other groups. They are simply suggesting that you and others here are grossly exaggerating the extent and degree to which it occurs.

BTW, when you call people who disagree with you morally bankrupt, you only serve to alienate them and perpetuate the stereotype that Mormons are self righteous.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Jaybear

[Somebodyz]

Why do some people have to be down-right mean and nasty on the internet when it comes to the LDS faith?

Thoughts?

I don't think it's just our Faith that gets picked on. Go to you tube, any blog were strong views are expressed ie adoption, marriage, religion of any kind etc. and you will see haters and vile comments posted. The internet, gives everyone a voice, in private, for some this probably means they can indulge themselves in depths they wouldn't dream of if they were known and seen by their work colleges, parents etc.

We should be careful not to take it too personally as a faith.

Today I'm feeling grateful for the internet, the same power it gives to the vile, it also gives to the good. Via the net, I found my father, brother, lost friends and this week over 20 ancestors whos work can now be done.

[Sky]

Here’s a sampling of five comments from one of the more recent LDS related articles on the Tribune (I tried to pick ones that I hope will be acceptable to post here). And this is just barely scratching the surface. Anything that digs up dirt at the Mormons appears to be fair game, regardless if it's true or not. But you be the judge.

“In Mittsy's case, it's a matter of whether he consecrates his loyalty to his church or to his country.(You know what they say... can't serve two masters!)”

Referring to Prop 8:

“Liar. The proposition was going down for defeat before YOUR church egged on its minions to engage in rabble-rousing, under penalty of eternal damnation of their immortal souls.”

"Step back and look how Utah is operated. Do we really want the USA operated by the LD$ church? Good grief, can't imagine traveling to Canada for a beer greater than 3.2 % alcohol content. NO MORMONS IN THE WHITE HOUSE !!!! End of story."

"You must not live in Utah, because the LDS Bishops around here always meet with each member at least once a year to review their W-2 and check that against their tithing history to make sure members are paying their 10%."

"The book of Mormon is not based on any facts, and there are no living Prophets!"

[Sky]

I always like to tell myself that if I were to ever leave the Church, I would leave it in peace and not attempt to pull others out with me. I wouldn’t be mean and nasty about it. But then I am reminded by Joseph Smith that this is not usually how it works:

… “Brother Behunin, you don’t know what you would do. No doubt these men once thought as you do. Before you joined this Church you stood on neutral ground. When the gospel was preached, good and evil were set before you. You could choose either or neither. There were two opposite masters inviting you to serve them. When you joined this Church you enlisted to serve God. When you did that you left the neutral ground, and you never can get back on to it. Should you forsake the Master you enlisted to serve, it will be by the instigation of the evil one, and you will follow his dictation and be his servant.”

[Lightbearer]

The following is a fitting tribute to Anti-Mormons, critics, and enemies of the Church the Lord has restored in these last days:

"And when ye shall see these sayings coming forth among you, then ye need not any longer spurn at the doings of the Lord, for the sword of his justice is in his right hand; and behold, at that day, if ye shall spurn at his doings he will cause that it shall soon overtake you. Wo unto him that spurneth at the doings of the Lord; yea, wo unto him that shall deny the Christ and his works! Yea, wo unto him that shall deny the revelations of the Lord, and that shall say the Lord no longer worketh by revelation, or by prophecy, or by gifts, or by tongues, or by healings, or by the power of the Holy Ghost! Yea, and wo unto him that shall say at that day, to get gain, that there can be no miracle wrought by Jesus Christ; for he that doeth this shall become like unto the son of perdition, for whom there was no mercy, according to the word of Christ!"

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 29:4 - 7)

So I suppose the nastiness of the Anti-Mormon attitude has it's own heavy price! I suppose we ought to say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" unless of course they do know what they do and then I think the above will apply fully to them.

[KevinG]

Here’s a sampling of five comments from one of the more recent LDS related articles on the Tribune (I tried to pick ones that I hope will be acceptable to post here). And this is just barely scratching the surface. Anything that digs up dirt at the Mormons appears to be fair game, regardless if it's true or not. But you be the judge.

“In Mittsy's case, it's a matter of whether he consecrates his loyalty to his church or to his country.(You know what they say... can't serve two masters!)”

Referring to Prop 8:

“Liar. The proposition was going down for defeat before YOUR church egged on its minions to engage in rabble-rousing, under penalty of eternal damnation of their immortal souls.”

"Step back and look how Utah is operated. Do we really want the USA operated by the LD$ church? Good grief, can't imagine traveling to Canada for a beer greater than 3.2 % alcohol content. NO MORMONS IN THE WHITE HOUSE !!!! End of story."

"You must not live in Utah, because the LDS Bishops around here always meet with each member at least once a year to review their W-2 and check that against their tithing history to make sure members are paying their 10%."

"The book of Mormon is not based on any facts, and there are no living Prophets!"

I can hardly stand to read the comments after any article about an LDS politician, Church announcement, LDS actor, BYU sports article, event in Salt Lake City or Utah, etc.

I can stomach the vitriol - that is almost expected. But the sheer volume of misinformation and anti-Mormon claptrap being shared is frightening.

We still have a long way to go in getting our message out. I don't expect it to be unopposed. If it is categorized as a PR campaign so what? We have every right to tell our story when there are full time "ministers" and "experts" spreading vicious lies.

[Scott Lloyd]

I don't think this is true. I'm not aware of very much anti-Methodist material in newspaper comment sections. I don't see many letters to the editor denouncing Presbyterians, Quakers, or Lutherans. I don't even see very many that attack Buddhists or Baha’is or Sikhs, let alone Catholics or Jews.

Other than John F. Kennedy, has there ever been a candidate for U.S. president whose fitness to hold office has been widely disputed specifically because of his religious faith?

While bigotry and hatred are ever-present among small-minded people, the more troubling matter is the extent to which such bigotry is tolerated in the societal mainstream. Open bigotry against Jews, Catholics, blacks, Hispanics, is no longer politically acceptable. But Mormonism seems to be the bigotry du jour; it is somehow still tolerable, even among supposedly decent people.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[selek1]

lol what world are you living in??

Attacking the messenger?

My....how....predictable.

Moral bankrupt? No need to get personal.

While I can see why you might be confused Jaybear, you might try re-reading the sentence in question,

He called the attacks morally bankrupt, but made no judgement against those repeating them.

No one here is seeking to "justify" incivility directed towards Mormons or any other groups.

On the contrary, you and your friends have attempted precisely that.

Whether under the rubric of "well, if the Momons had it coming", or "Hey, everybody does it". or even "Hey, quite complaining, it's no big deal"- you and your fellow travellers have labored long and hard to excuse, justify, and perhaps even ratify the myriad abuses heaped on the Mormon online.

At this point in this particularly tired waltz (yes, we've danced this dance before), your customary (indeed, expected and anticipated) retort is to comment off-handedly about the Mormon "persecution complex" and then then suggest that we should be grateful that things aren't worse.

I mean, after all, tarring and feathering are things of the past, and torch-lit mobs ripping men from their homes in the middle of the night is just soooo last-century.

They are simply suggesting that you and others here are grossly exaggerating the extent and degree to which it occurs.

Ah, yes. Right on time- "quit complaining, it's not that bad."

You really do know this dance down to the last step, don't you?

BTW, when you call people who disagree with you morally bankrupt, you only serve to alienate them and perpetuate the stereotype that Mormons are self righteous.

In future, you Quite lecturing, Jaybear. That's a mirror, not a window. Edited December 6, 2011 by Minos
selek has left the building

[Scott Lloyd]

Here’s a sampling of five comments from one of the more recent LDS related articles on the Tribune (I tried to pick ones that I hope will be acceptable to post here). And this is just barely scratching the surface. Anything that digs up dirt at the Mormons appears to be fair game, regardless if it's true or not. But you be the judge.

I don't look at the Trib's "Reader Comments" very often; I can't bear the stench. But does anyone here know if the same level of bigotry, vitriol and falsehood is directed toward blacks, Jews, Hispanics, etc.? I wonder if such posts would even be permitted on the site.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[Lost in Ohio]

Moral bankrupt? No need to get personal.

No one here is seeking to "justify" incivility directed towards Mormons or any other groups. They are simply suggesting that you and others here are grossly exaggerating the extent and degree to which it occurs.

BTW, when you call people who disagree with you morally bankrupt, you only serve to alienate them and perpetuate the stereotype that Mormons are self righteous.

Not trying to get personal - I called the effort to use that particular line of reasoning morally bankrupt. As if somehow it's OK to be so obviouly maligned because you (supposedly) don't have it worse than some other group (a matter for debate by the way). I find the entire statement "All in all, the Mormons are not treated any worse than any other group." to be frankly ridiculous to even the most casual observer. It simply is not so.

The posters second point that "The culture of the people in the church is far different compared to most people in America and most people in the world. It is only natural that the Mormon culture draws criticism and negative attention." only re-enforces my opinion that the entire line of reasoning being presented to somehow mitigate and/or justify the unfair treatment of my faith is morally bankrupt - that is, without any moral standing.

BTW, when people tell me to stop whining and that I should expect to be criticized, while simultaneously telling me that it's all in my head anyway because I'm grossly exaggerating, it only serves to alienate me.

[Thunderfire]

Mormons are attacked in newspaper comments sections when they involve themselves in politics, yes, but also when they involve themselves in sports, when they involve themselves in entertainment, when they build a building, when they do missionary work, essentially when they breathe.

I do agree that Mormons are attacked in some extremely unfortunate ways, especially by those who profess to know better (ie: christians). It is difficult understanding the reasons behind this, but I do believe that some of it can be attributed to pride and jealously. The LDS church is very successful in many areas (both secularly with all its business holdings and as a religious denomination) and you will be attacked simply due to your success in these areas.

Now I simply offer this as mere opinion where I believe the LDS shoot themselves in the foot. There is an aura of secrecy within the church that is conveyed to the outside world that causes the minds of others to fill in the blanks with all sorts of wild and sordid stuff. You already know all the stories regarding what goes on in the temples and there is no need to address them here.

In my opinion, the easiest way to stop the attacks is to take away the ammunition people use against you, the secret things done behind closed doors. But here is the rub, while full disclosed will stop many attacks, some will still continue. So are you better off with the attacks you now know verse those you will face when everything is laid open? I don't know.

This I do know, my church is open about everything and many of the attacks vanished. But then there will always be those who will attack you due to your success. So some things you must simply endure...

[KevinG]

Just curious? How could the following be justified in any moral way?

A childhood friend refusing to talk to me because I was joining the Mormon church (Illinois 1987)

A man chasing me around a train car and trying to strike me (in order to cast out devils) because I was reading the Doctrine and Covenants silently. (Illinois 1988)

My pregnant wife being told she was carrying the spawn of Satan. (Illinois 1990)

Being denied entrance into a Christian private school unless a form was signed disavowing the Book of Mormon (Tennessee 1995)

A recruiter informing me I was denied a job because I was a Mormon indicated by BYU on my resume (Wyoming 1996)

Mothers not allowing our children to play with theirs because we were Mormons (Georgia 1997)

A hiring manager informing me to hide the fact that I was a Mormon to the executive staff during interviews (Minnesota 2004)

My teenaged children being barred from an ecumenical Bible Study group because they were Mormon. They had already promised to discuss the Bible only in the group and were barred from saying prayers. (Georgia 2007)

My reaction (and my children's reaction) to all of the above was to walk away and not make waves. Sometimes I wonder if I should make a bigger stink, but I don't want to lower myself to that level. (Turn the other cheek and all).

In fairness we have great friends, great support and great professional opportunities over the same time where being a Mormon was respected and applauded by others.

[KevinG]

I do agree that Mormons are attacked in some extremely unfortunate ways, especially by those who profess to know better (ie: christians). It is difficult understanding the reasons behind this, but I do believe that some of it can be attributed to pride and jealously. The LDS church is very successful in many areas (both secularly with all its business holdings and as a religious denomination) and you will be attacked simply due to your success in these areas.

Good observation. Other large groups come under the same scrutiny and sometimes defamation.

Now I simply offer this as mere opinion where I believe the LDS shoot themselves in the foot. There is an aura of secrecy within the church that is conveyed to the outside world that causes the minds of others to fill in the blanks with all sorts of wild and sordid stuff. You already know all the stories regarding what goes on in the temples and there is no need to address them here.

In my opinion, the easiest way to stop the attacks is to take away the ammunition people use against you, the secret things done behind closed doors. But here is the rub, while full disclosed will stop many attacks, some will still continue. So are you better off with the attacks you now know verse those you will face when everything is laid open? I don't know.

This I do know, my church is open about everything and many of the attacks vanished. But then there will always be those who will attack you due to your success. So some things you must simply endure...

I think we can get so busy with our LDS centric activities and callings that we fail to engage the larger community as constructively as we could.

Finding us strange and insular is one thing. Actively filling the blanks with falsehoods is another. True anti-Mormons do the latter with gusto.

[Thunderfire]

Good observation. Other large groups come under the same scrutiny and sometimes defamation.

I think we can get so busy with our LDS centric activities and callings that we fail to engage the larger community as constructively as we could.

You bring up some good points which are important to address. When does the church become so engaged in LDS activities that there is simply no time left to engage the world WITH the larger Christian community? Or rather, when does the need to compete with the other Christian denominiations over converts cease when we being seeing ourselves as an extended family of believers?

Just some things to consider: While I do not know all that the LDS church is involved in, does the church fund ministries like homeless shelters, give money for disaster relief, or participate with other denominations for community betterment? The church may in fact do these things, but for some reason it still carries the label of being separated from these things. As example, I have extensive experience in community activities, yet the LDS membership have been noticably absent in these efforts. In smaller communities, everyone knows where most people attend and who (and who is not) involved. They have been noticeably absent from events like the Mayors Prayer Breakfast as well as the local communities Ministerial Alliance (of course I am only speaking from experinence in my community).

I only offer this as example from a "marketing perspective." Of course, some will say (and rightly so) that the other denominations will refuse to work with you. But I have also found that once someone gets to know you, many of the fears and prejudices will vanish when they get to know the people of the LDS. Just my thoughts offered in all kindness...