Explanation For Multigendered Persons?

[Cobalt-70]

I disagree with the idea that these physical forms are "defects" as God does not make mistakes.

Maybe. But DNA transcription enzymes do, sometimes, make mistakes, which is why you get mutations. Sometimes something happens with enzymes in the womb, and the entire & chromosome doesn't get activated. This is a genetic defect. If all bodily defects are cured in the resurrection, then some women, who always considered themselves to be women, have female organs and hormones, and get sealed to men in the temple, may wake up on resurrection day finding that they have male genitals and that they are in an eternal same-sex relationship.

Approximately 1 in 20,400 women have what is known as Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, and are actually genetically male, yet have normal female genitalia and show normal female secondary characteristics. They are also almost always heterosexual (i.e., attracted to men). That means that over 300 Mormon women alive today are actually genetically male, many of whom probably don't know it, and have been sealed in the temple to men. The only way you would know if you have this syndrome is if somebody conducts a genetic test, possibly after the woman is married and finds she is infertile.

[Deborah]

Rather than to say someone has a defective or flawed body, why not say modified? Why is it a negative?

It's a negative because it is flawed and presents great challenges that others don't have. That isn't to say that the test isn't the one that person needs, but nevertheless the body is flawed, just as all of us are in some way.

[CV75]

deleted--reply went to wrong post

Edited November 23, 2011 by CV75

[CV75]

Well, I do have a friend that is female on the inside and male on the outside. Brain activity is female and ovaries internally, but completely 100% male on the outside. Physical appearance is not what you are physically, it is what you appear to be physically. As far as my friend goes, he is totally a girl on the inside ~ behaviors, preferences, personality, emotions, etc. but still he is a guy. I don't believe God makes mistakes so I have to assume that my friend has been given a rare opportunity to experience life in a way that allows him to gain wisdom and knowledge that I can not. We each have challenges in life that are personal to us and that is because our Heavenly Father know each and every one of us personally. I think an identity is very important to each of us. To have one recognized gender is very important to establishing that identity. Now if you are a girl on the inside and a boy on the outside and you choose to identify with the girl inside, does that change what everyone sees you to be? NO. People still see the boy that is on the outside. So even though you chose girl, think girl and feel girl, you still lack a singular identity because the boy of you does NOT go away. However, if you chose to identify yourself according to your outwardly appearance then you can successfully obtain a singular identity ~ The boy with girl stuff.

I only have this understanding from being blessed in life with such an amazing, wonderful friend.

Not to complicate the discussion (because the resolution is the same), some cases are chimera—one organism comprised of the tissues of two distinct people (who would otherwise become identical or fraternal twins), with the dominant features defining the perception (whether ours or his or hers) of a single person. In the resurrection, each individual will be segregated into his or her own distinct organism.

[CV75]

Maybe. But DNA transcription enzymes do, sometimes, make mistakes, which is why you get mutations. Sometimes something happens with enzymes in the womb, and the entire & chromosome doesn't get activated. This is a genetic defect. If all bodily defects are cured in the resurrection, then some women, who always considered themselves to be women, have female organs and hormones, and get sealed to men in the temple, may wake up on resurrection day finding that they have male genitals and that they are in an eternal same-sex relationship.

I think the affected individuals will understand who they really are well before the resurrection, receive proper counseling, and it won't be a surprise. A resolution as far as sealing goes has already been given.

[CV75]

Approximately 1 in 20,400 women have what is known as Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, and are actually genetically male, yet have normal female genitalia and show normal female secondary characteristics. They are also almost always heterosexual (i.e., attracted to men). That means that over 300 Mormon women alive today are actually genetically male, many of whom probably don't know it, and have been sealed in the temple to men. The only way you would know if you have this syndrome is if somebody conducts a genetic test, possibly after the woman is married and finds she is infertile.

For all we know, this "defect" may actually be a merciful "fix" to an underlying genetic problem in this life so that the female spirit can have a virtually female body during mortality.

[Cobalt-70]

Well, I do have a friend that is female on the inside and male on the outside. Brain activity is female and ovaries internally, but completely 100% male on the outside. Physical appearance is not what you are physically, it is what you appear to be physically. As far as my friend goes, he is totally a girl on the inside ~ behaviors, preferences, personality, emotions, etc. but still he is a guy. I don't believe God makes mistakes so I have to assume that my friend has been given a rare opportunity to experience life in a way that allows him to gain wisdom and knowledge that I can not. We each have challenges in life that are personal to us and that is because our Heavenly Father know each and every one of us personally. I think an identity is very important to each of us. To have one recognized gender is very important to establishing that identity. Now if you are a girl on the inside and a boy on the outside and you choose to identify with the girl inside, does that change what everyone sees you to be? NO. People still see the boy that is on the outside. So even though you chose girl, think girl and feel girl, you still lack a singular identity because the boy of you does NOT go away. However, if you chose to identify yourself according to your outwardly appearance then you can successfully obtain a singular identity ~ The boy with girl stuff.

I only have this understanding from being blessed in life with such an amazing, wonderful friend.

So do you think that "eternally," your friend is a man or a woman? Are we what we appear to be from the outside, or what we are based on our personality and inborn sense of gender? If the latter, then would it be good church policy to excommunicate or disfellowship her if she were to choose to have gender reassignment surgery to align her eternal self with her outward appearance?

[Cobalt-70]

I think the affected individuals will understand who they really are well before the resurrection, receive proper counseling, and it won't be a surprise. A resolution as far as sealing goes has already been given.

I don't think that's a resolution. Suppose she adopted children with the man to which she was sealed, and these children were sealed to the couple in the temple. Do you think splitting up this eternal family is a good resolution? Plus, who is going to "teach" her to be attracted to women, when she spent a lifetime thinking she was a heterosexual woman?

Edited November 23, 2011 by Cobalt-70

[CV75]

So do you think that "eternally," your friend is a man or a woman? Are we what we appear to be from the outside, or what we are based on our personality and inborn sense of gender? If the latter, then would it be good church policy to excommunicate or disfellowship her if she were to choose to have gender reassignment surgery to align her eternal self with her outward appearance?

So do you think that "eternally," your friend is a man or a woman? Are we what we appear to be from the outside, or what we are based on our personality and inborn sense of gender? If the latter, then would it be good church policy to excommunicate or disfellowship her if she were to choose to have gender reassignment surgery to align her eternal self with her outward appearance?

Even those responsible for executing Church policy recognize its limitations in light of eternal principles and the Holy Spirit of Promise, and acting in good faith welcome the Lord’s corrections to unintended mistakes and errors in decision-making.

[CV75]

I don't think that's a resolution. Suppose she adopted children with the man to which she was sealed, and these children were sealed to the couple in the temple. Do you think splitting up this eternal family is a good resolution? Plus, who is going to "teach" her to be attracted to women, when she spent a lifetime thinking she was a heterosexual woman?

The eternal family is not split up. The eternal family is not so ego-centric as that. We are all children of God and the family of Adam, and those who are worthy are sealed into it, and to eternal companions.

Someone who is worthy of exaltation will rejoice in aligning everything to the Lord's will and cheerfully do what they need to do, no matter what difficulties occurred in this life. They embrace the truth, whatever new facts they realize. Intelligence cleaves to intelligence, etc., and this is how people progress and realize the Lord's will for them.

[Nominee]

So do you think that "eternally," your friend is a man or a woman? Are we what we appear to be from the outside, or what we are based on our personality and inborn sense of gender? If the latter, then would it be good church policy to excommunicate or disfellowship her if she were to choose to have gender reassignment surgery to align her eternal self with her outward appearance?

I want to say that I shared here about my friend because I could offer some insight regarding this one man's choices. This is not to say it is right or wrong or the same for all. The one man I know that faces these challenges chose to do so with a mindset that his outwardly appearance determines his sex in this mortal life. Mainly because of just that, it is a mortal life, a physical life.

We are what we appear to be from the outside, we are who we are based on our personality and inborn sense of gender.

As far as eternally, I don't know what his take is on that. My take is that we all get what we deserve. If we live ours lives righteously then we will be happy with the outcome. It is God's promise.

http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76.5-7?lang=eng#4

http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/59.23?lang=eng#22

Sorry, I needed to edit because the scriptures I copied and pasted were all screwed up. I just put the links in this time.

Edited November 24, 2011 by Nominee

[CV75]

My take is that we all get what we deserve. If we live ours lives righteously then we will be happy with the outcome. It is God's promise.

I agree with this.

These types of problems with self-identity and sealing are handled the same way as someone who dies and then learns, contrary to lifelong appearances, that their spouse and/or children will not be sealed to them due to hypocrisy in keeping covenants. These situations are just as heart wrenching, but also just as thoroughly healed through the Atonement of the Lord for the faithful. As perceptions are corrected, sealings of the faithful are arranged or rearranged so as to be ratified by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

In like manner, contrary to lifelong appearances, a person considered to be a man, even so by himself, may really turn out to be a woman in spirit and vice-versa. I imagine this is very rare, but even if not the sealings would be rearranged and ratified for the humble followers of Christ by the Holy Spirit of Promise according to their exalted wants and needs. Such people, just like the faithful spouse and those with the keys to formulate and execute Church policy, did their best with what they had in this world and receive the Lord’s grace.

[Nominee]

I agree with this.

These types of problems with self-identity and sealing are handled the same way as someone who dies and then learns, contrary to lifelong appearances, that their spouse and/or children will not be sealed to them due to hypocrisy in keeping covenants. These situations are just as heart wrenching, but also just as thoroughly healed through the Atonement of the Lord for the faithful. As perceptions are corrected, sealings of the faithful are arranged or rearranged so as to be ratified by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

In like manner, contrary to lifelong appearances, a person considered to be a man, even so by himself, may really turn out to be a woman in spirit and vice-versa. I imagine this is very rare, but even if not the sealings would be rearranged and ratified for the humble followers of Christ by the Holy Spirit of Promise according to their exalted wants and needs. Such people, just like the faithful spouse and those with the keys to formulate and execute Church policy, did their best with what they had in this world and receive the Lord’s grace.

I could not have said it better.

[Calm]

I agree that God does not make mistakes, but humans do and some of those mistakes can be seen in what we term birth defects, for example Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. And other birth defects may be caused by injuries or other accidents having an impact on development or even DNA. Genetic, biochemical and mechanical errors do occur resulting in miscarriages and injured infants.

It doesn't make sense to me to say God planned for this child to be born with FAS or other hardship, rather it makes sense to me to say that God built accommodation into his system for salvation and exaltation for such genetic errors appearing due to man's fallen state.

We need not be concerned eternally about the effect of these mistakes or accidents because of the Atonement and God's justice and mercy (he does not penalize anyone for something they are not responsible for), even so such things can have a huge impact on mortality.

Edited November 24, 2011 by calmoriah

[Cobalt-70]

Someone who is worthy of exaltation will rejoice in aligning everything to the Lord's will and cheerfully do what they need to do, no matter what difficulties occurred in this life. They embrace the truth, whatever new facts they realize. Intelligence cleaves to intelligence, etc., and this is how people progress and realize the Lord's will for them.

That sounds like what the pod people said in Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Don't worry, when you join us, you will understand and will be happy. Of course, you won't be you, but you'll be happy.

[Calm]

Which is where the difference lies for in becoming one with God we become the most "I" that is possible, with our highest potential fulfilled and all that was preventing our fullest expression removed.

[CV75]

That sounds like what the pod people said in Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Don't worry, when you join us, you will understand and will be happy. Of course, you won't be you, but you'll be happy.

Man is spirit (D&C 93:33). The spirit defines everything else that is added to him in the resurrection--element and glory. I suppose one could look upon our spirit as a body snatcher of sorts, except it never snatched the body of another person, and was given its mortal body in accordance with God's plan, and this elemental body is restored to its perfect form as defined/designed by God. God's justice and mercy do not rob His children but make them what they really are.

Yes, Jesus invites us to follow Him and be happy. We will no longer be the natural man (carnal, sensual and devilish), we will no longer be subject to others who are carnal, sensual and devilish or to the conditions of a fallen world. We won't be the false person Satan and these conditions may have deceived us to be, but the true self, and truly happy. Embracing truth is a good thing, no matter how mistaken or downtrodden we may have been.

[Cobalt-70]

Which is where the difference lies for in becoming one with God we become the most "I" that is possible, with our highest potential fulfilled and all that was preventing our fullest expression removed.

If you are internally male or internally female, the only thing that would prevent you from reaching your "highest potential" is the fact that your body doesn't match your internal gender. You don't need to switch internal genders to reach your highest potential, unless you think that the highest potential of women is lesser than that of men.

[bu11fr0g]

A few small points: Individuals at present are only able to have children corresponding to their genetic sex. This only leaves adopted children as an issue and adoptions are even now known to be "wrong" with a certain degree of frequency. Philosophically these would be worked out in the second coming. As we earlier pointed out, marriages are also "wrong" a certain percentage of the time. These wrong marriages will also be worked out in the second coming.

There is no reason to believe that the problems of gender cannot likewise be worked out in the second coming.

In my family's line there is an XY/XO Turner's female that married in the temple, adopted a daughter with her husband and was a temple worker for many years. She is fully female. The idea of being resurrected as a guy would have been psychologically crushing for her.

"Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." It is with these very rare cases that present Mormon cosmology breaks down in what most Mormons believe. The leadership of the church is very aware of these issues and the way that the institutionalized Church has been dealing with them has been evolving over the years (cf. the recommendations in the handbook of instructions). There is no reason to expect that it won't continue to change.

Even more problematic would be children born to two females with no sperm involved and cloned individuals. There is nothing in nature that prevents this from happening, and there are rumors that successful fertilizations without implantation has already occurred.

[Storm Rider]

Even more problematic would be children born to two females with no sperm involved and cloned individuals. There is nothing in nature that prevents this from happening, and there are rumors that successful fertilizations without implantation has already occurred.

To the contrary, there is nothing in nature that allows such a fertilization. It requires the intervention of science to force this event to occur. There is nothing normal about it. I am not saying that all science is wrong when it comes to correcting fertilization problems; however, I would say that there is a difference between correcting a fertility problem between a heterosexual couple and forcing fertilization between individuals/couples who were never made to have children.

[Rivers]

There is no doctrinal explanation.

Thank heavens!

yet...

Edited November 27, 2011 by Rivers

[Cobalt-70]

A few small points: Individuals at present are only able to have children corresponding to their genetic sex. This only leaves adopted children as an issue and adoptions are even now known to be "wrong" with a certain degree of frequency. Philosophically these would be worked out in the second coming. As we earlier pointed out, marriages are also "wrong" a certain percentage of the time. These wrong marriages will also be worked out in the second coming.

There is no reason to believe that the problems of gender cannot likewise be worked out in the second coming.

...

The problem with just throwing up our hands and saying "it will be worked out in the second coming," is that it undermines the seriousness and finality of Mormon ordinances. It is also, I think, a bit of a cop-out. Assuming resurrection is real, either a CAIS woman will be resurrected as a woman or as a man. It is either one or the other, and the only remaining question is who gets to decide. Either the woman makes the decision, or God makes it for her. A righteous genetically-male woman who entered a celestial marriage with a righteous man, and both of them are worthy of exaltation, are either sealed for eternity, or they are split apart and their sealed children distributed elsewhere.

Unless you can give a definitive answer to the above questions, then there is uncertainty. And if we cannot even be certain about whether or not gender is malleable in the eternities, and we cannot be certain about whether or not some couples in the eternities might genetically have the same sex, or that righteous and worthy couples who are sealed in the temple will receive their promised blessing of being together in the eternities, then what does that say about the confidence we should have in our dogmatic (noncanonical) views about gender reassignment surgery or same-sex marriage?

[CV75]

The problem with just throwing up our hands and saying "it will be worked out in the second coming," is that it undermines the seriousness and finality of Mormon ordinances. It is also, I think, a bit of a cop-out. Assuming resurrection is real, either a CAIS woman will be resurrected as a woman or as a man. It is either one or the other, and the only remaining question is who gets to decide. Either the woman makes the decision, or God makes it for her. A righteous genetically-male woman who entered a celestial marriage with a righteous man, and both of them are worthy of exaltation, are either sealed for eternity, or they are split apart and their sealed children distributed elsewhere.

Unless you can give a definitive answer to the above questions, then there is uncertainty. And if we cannot even be certain about whether or not gender is malleable in the eternities, and we cannot be certain about whether or not some couples in the eternities might genetically have the same sex, or that righteous and worthy couples who are sealed in the temple will receive their promised blessing of being together in the eternities, then what does that say about the confidence we should have in our dogmatic (noncanonical) views about gender reassignment surgery or same-sex marriage?

The solemnity and seriousness of Mormon ordinances are tempered with mercy, charity, patience and other virtues. Exceptions and accommodations abound (infants need no baptism; temple ordinances are adjusted for the physically challenged; sacred oaths bind an action in some places and not others, etc.).

The finality of Mormon ordinances is not realized until the Holy Spirit of Promise ratifies them.

We are resurrected in our perfect form and proper frame—presumably the decision was already made pre-mortally in concert with God’s will and design. Temporal clinical issues and psycho-emotional cares, mistakes and surprises will pale in relation to eternal enlightenment. The Holy Spirit of Promise only ratifies the latter.

Nothing is certain until the Holy Spirit of Promise says it is, hence our reliance on faith in Christ and doing our best until that day dawns upon us. Uncertainty, patience and need to know are very individual matters and the Spirit helps people with those through this life, even without direct answers and explanations from those with the keys of revelation and policy-making. Demanding certainty never was a gospel principle.

Some people’s treasure may well be in gender reassignment surgery and same-sex marriage, but others who one might expect to be most rightly concerned with these issues are actually holding out for more essential attributes in patience and faith.