Explanation For Multigendered Persons?

[Saints Alive]

Does anyone have experience with how a person who is born with ambiguous gender is handled in the church?

I understand usually a gender is chosen by either doctors or parents before it becomes an issue and the chosen gender is what the church goes by. What of the persons who never picked a gender or later come to find out that they are a different gender (I have heard cases of a person who believed they were a woman later finding out that they had internal testicals as opposed to ovaries).

Is there any doctrinal explanation for why these people were born with ambiguous genders? some kind of mistake somewhere between the preexistance and birth?

Edited November 22, 2011 by Saints Alive

[Deborah]

I don't know that there is a doctrinal explanation but there is an explanation that it is part of the imperfection of mortality and all these things will be taken care of in the resurrection. Certainly people with such conditions face enormous challenges and I think each case has to be looked at on an individual basis. Comfort is in knowing that God knows the challenges we face and will take all things into consideration.

[CV75]

Does anyone have experience with how a person who is born with ambiguous gender is handled in the church?

I understand usually a gender is chosen by either doctors or parents before it becomes an issue and the chosen gender is what the church goes by. What of the persons who never picked a gender or later come to find out that they are a different gender (I have heard cases of a person who believed they were a woman later finding out that they had internal testicals as opposed to ovaries).

Is there any doctrinal explanation for why these people were born with ambiguous genders? some kind of mistake somewhere between the preexistance and birth?

This kind of thing results from the conditions of a fallen world, wherethe body does not square with the eternal spirit or gender but still serves a purpose for testing.

[altersteve]

What about transgendered persons? Can a male spirit really enter a female body, and vice-versa?

[Cobalt-70]

Does anyone have experience with how a person who is born with ambiguous gender is handled in the church?

I understand usually a gender is chosen by either doctors or parents before it becomes an issue and the chosen gender is what the church goes by. What of the persons who never picked a gender or later come to find out that they are a different gender (I have heard cases of a person who believed they were a woman later finding out that they had internal testicals as opposed to ovaries).

Is there any doctrinal explanation for why these people were born with ambiguous genders? some kind of mistake somewhere between the preexistance and birth?

According to the recent Proclamation on the Family, the church leadership believes that gender identity is an inborn trait. But apparently, sometimes gender identity and biological sex do not match. There are many, many biological women who are actually genetically male, and have always considered themselves to be women, and may not even have discovered that they were genetically male until adulthood. I can't really judge someone who feels the same way, that they are a woman, but was born with fully formed male genitalia, or vice versa.

Edited November 22, 2011 by Cobalt-70

[Senator]

There is no doctrinal explanation.

Thank heavens!

[CV75]

What about transgendered persons? Can a male spirit really enter a female body, and vice-versa?

I can conceive of it happening. No spirit is transgendered (we were created male or female, spiritually, before coming into mortality), so such a situation would be part of life's test.

Edited November 22, 2011 by CV75

[Saints Alive]

I can conceive of it happening. No spirit is transgendered (we were created male or female, spiritually, before coming into mortality), so such a situation would be part of life's test.

If that were to be the case, a male spirit born into a female body or visa versa, would it be corrected during the resurrection? what implications would that have on sealings if they were a parent or spouse?

[Senator]

If that were to be the case, a male spirit born into a female body or visa versa, would it be corrected during the resurrection? what implications would that have on sealings if they were a parent or spouse?

That's why there's no doctrine on the matter and that what is offered is the almighty fubar fixer, that everything will be made right in the end, whatever that may be.

[Sky]

I honestly haven’t heard the Brethren say much about people who truly are born with an “ambiguous gender.” But I have heard it taught that nobody gets born into the “wrong body.” I believe the idea that some people are born into the wrong body is false doctrine.

I think everybody knows that the Church highly discourages elective gender reassignment surgery.

No doubt this might be one of the toughest things a person could go through. We don’t have all the answers, but as Deborah said, we have to be able to trust that it will all be taken care of in the resurrection. Isn’t that part of the Good News of the gospel?

[Cobalt-70]

I honestly haven’t heard the Brethren say much about people who truly are born with an “ambiguous gender.” But I have heard it taught that nobody gets born into the “wrong body.” I believe the idea that some people are born into the wrong body is false doctrine.

It's not the "wrong" body. Just a body with a defect. Some people are born with a body with an extra chromosome, and we say they have Down Syndrome. Others are born with genitalia that does not correspond to their genetic sex, and we say that they are genetically male women. Still others are born with with genital sex that does not match the sex of their brain, and we say they have Gender Identity Disorder. The latter disease can be corrected by surgery, although I understand that doing so, unless perhaps the person is an intersex person, might depending on the circumstances result in church discipline.

What I'd really like to know is whether a genetically male woman could be ordained as an Elder, and could they be sealed in the temple to a man? Many genetically male women don't even know they are genetically male, and only appear female because of a mutation that inactivates their Y chromosome. Are genes the determining factor, or genitals? And if genitals, then what about intersex people? Certainly these issues have come up before, and I'd like to know how the LDS church handled them.

[Freedom]

I would rather be born with ambiguous gender than in a vegetative state or without limbs. Each of us has physical and mental limitations.

[Nominee]

We are what we are in this mortal life according to our physical appearance. When you have to go potty in a public place, do you use the restroom that is assigned to your spirit or to your body? It is your appearance that determines the life you live. But it is not your appearance that determines who you are.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Nominee

[Saints Alive]

We are what we are in this mortal life according to our physical appearance.

How familiar are you with amaphrodites? how would someone act according to their physical appearance if their physical appearance included parts of both male and female genitalia? There are people with one ovary and one testical , would they be ordained to the priesthood or would they be allowed to marry a man?

[Storm Rider]

There are exceptions to almost any guideline we could dream up. I suspect that sometimes things would be taken on a case-by-case basis rather than attempting to formulate a hard rule, which is exactly what the Church has done. There are no rules; however, there is counsel to prayerfully consider situations and to follow the Spirit.

I would also say that in this very unique situations there is not other way to approach it except through the Spirit. In some respects, the Church does seek for the simplistic approach, while at other times there is no guideline except the guidance of the Spirit.

[CV75]

If that were to be the case, a male spirit born into a female body or visa versa, would it be corrected during the resurrection? what implications would that have on sealings if they were a parent or spouse?

I'm sure that both issues would find optimal resolution in the resurrection. Exalted people comprehend everything God does, so these resolutions will contribute to the eternal joy of all involved.

[CV75]

How familiar are you with amaphrodites? how would someone act according to their physical appearance if their physical appearance included parts of both male and female genitalia? There are people with one ovary and one testical , would they be ordained to the priesthood or would they be allowed to marry a man?

I suppose anything could happen pending the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

[DH]

I know of an LDS hermaphrodite who has met with two different presidents of the Church. Both time the PotC was very kind, and told them that he unfortunately didn't have the answers to all their questions, but he sympathized with their situation. So no, we don't have a spiritual explanation, but like others have said, I'm sure it'll all work out in the end.

Edited November 23, 2011 by DH

[Cobalt-70]

There are exceptions to almost any guideline we could dream up. I suspect that sometimes things would be taken on a case-by-case basis rather than attempting to formulate a hard rule, which is exactly what the Church has done. There are no rules; however, there is counsel to prayerfully consider situations and to follow the Spirit.

I would also say that in this very unique situations there is not other way to approach it except through the Spirit. In some respects, the Church does seek for the simplistic approach, while at other times there is no guideline except the guidance of the Spirit.

Does that mean that if a transgendered woman who was born with a Y chromosome and male genitalia felt prompted by the Spirit to have gender reassignment surgery, that the church would allow her to be sealed to a man in the temple? I kind of doubt it would agree to that. But if the woman was born with a Y chromosome and female genitalia, and she was married in the temple to a man before she discovered she was genetically male, would the church dissolve that marriage? I doubt that, also. Yet such a woman has a genetic defect, and if that defect were removed in the resurrection, this would be an instance of same-sex temple marriage.

If, on the other hand, a genetically male woman is able to "choose" her gender in the afterlife, then why cannot other people, such as the transgendered, make such a choice? So if temple marriages are really eternal so long as the participants are worthy, and so long as resurrection cures genetic defects, we are left with one of two mutually exclusive choices. Either:

(1) some people can alter their gender after the resurrection; or

(2) same-sex marriages exist in the Celestial Kingdom.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Cobalt-70

[CV75]

Does that mean that if a transgendered woman who was born with a Y chromosome and male genitalia felt prompted by the Spirit to have gender reassignment surgery, that the church would allow her to be sealed to a man in the temple? I kind of doubt it would agree to that. But if the woman was born with a Y chromosome and female genitalia, and she was married in the temple to a man before she discovered she was genetically male, would the church dissolve that marriage? I doubt that, also. Yet such a woman has a genetic defect, and if that defect were removed in the resurrection, this would be an instance of same-sex temple marriage.

If, on the other hand, a genetically male woman is able to "choose" her gender in the afterlife, then why cannot other people, such as the transgendered, make such a choice? So if temple marriages are really eternal so long as the participants are worthy, and so long as resurrection cures genetic defects, we are left with one of two mutually exclusive choices. Either:

(1) some people can alter their gender after the resurrection; or

(2) same-sex marriages exist in the Celestial Kingdom.

This requires a resolution between policy carried out in mortality and principle ensured throughout eternity, as follows:

The removal of a genetic defect in the resurrection (an eternal principle overriding the mortal policy against medical solutions) is not an instance of same-sex temple marriage since the eternal principle (marriage between a man and a woman) would annul of the incorrectly-observed mortal policy of marriage between a man and a woman. Far more mundane mistakes happen and will be corrected to the eternal satisfaction of the exalted parties, who are all sealed into the family of Adam. All tears will be dried.

No one chooses gender in the afterlife; that is already a part of our eternal identity.

Temple marriages performed on earth are eternal so long as the participants are worthy and the Holy Spirit of Promise confirms or validates the transaction as bound in heaven. In such a case as you described, the confirmation would not be granted in this life and would wait until the necessary corrections are made. The only role the resurrection plays is in the gift of the perfect immortal body.

The only mutually exclusive choices are:

(1) be worthy of the Holy Spirit of Promise;

(2) not be worthy of the Holy Spirit of Promise.

[Nominee]

Does that mean that if a transgendered woman who was born with a Y chromosome and male genitalia felt prompted by the Spirit to have gender reassignment surgery, that the church would allow her to be sealed to a man in the temple? I kind of doubt it would agree to that. But if the woman was born with a Y chromosome and female genitalia, and she was married in the temple to a man before she discovered she was genetically male, would the church dissolve that marriage? I doubt that, also. Yet such a woman has a genetic defect, and if that defect were removed in the resurrection, this would be an instance of same-sex temple marriage.

If, on the other hand, a genetically male woman is able to "choose" her gender in the afterlife, then why cannot other people, such as the transgendered, make such a choice? So if temple marriages are really eternal so long as the participants are worthy, and so long as resurrection cures genetic defects, we are left with one of two mutually exclusive choices. Either:

(1) some people can alter their gender after the resurrection; or

(2) same-sex marriages exist in the Celestial Kingdom.

I disagree with the idea that these physical forms are "defects" as God does not make mistakes.

[Deborah]

I disagree with the idea that these physical forms are "defects" as God does not make mistakes.

However, there are flaws in the mortal body, otherwise we would all be perfect. We come to mortality anticipating that there will be challenges, even physical ones that will have to eventually be overcome.

[Nominee]

How familiar are you with amaphrodites? how would someone act according to their physical appearance if their physical appearance included parts of both male and female genitalia? There are people with one ovary and one testical , would they be ordained to the priesthood or would they be allowed to marry a man?

Well, I do have a friend that is female on the inside and male on the outside. Brain activity is female and ovaries internally, but completely 100% male on the outside. Physical appearance is not what you are physically, it is what you appear to be physically. As far as my friend goes, he is totally a girl on the inside ~ behaviors, preferences, personality, emotions, etc. but still he is a guy. I don't believe God makes mistakes so I have to assume that my friend has been given a rare opportunity to experience life in a way that allows him to gain wisdom and knowledge that I can not. We each have challenges in life that are personal to us and that is because our Heavenly Father know each and every one of us personally. I think an identity is very important to each of us. To have one recognized gender is very important to establishing that identity. Now if you are a girl on the inside and a boy on the outside and you choose to identify with the girl inside, does that change what everyone sees you to be? NO. People still see the boy that is on the outside. So even though you chose girl, think girl and feel girl, you still lack a singular identity because the boy of you does NOT go away. However, if you chose to identify yourself according to your outwardly appearance then you can successfully obtain a singular identity ~ The boy with girl stuff.

I only have this understanding from being blessed in life with such an amazing, wonderful friend.

[Nominee]

However, there are flaws in the mortal body, otherwise we would all be perfect. We come to mortality anticipating that there will be challenges, even physical ones that will have to eventually be overcome.

Rather than to say someone has a defective or flawed body, why not say modified? Why is it a negative?

[Sky]

Does that mean that if a transgendered woman who was born with a Y chromosome and male genitalia felt prompted by the Spirit to have gender reassignment surgery, that the church would allow her to be sealed to a man in the temple? I kind of doubt it would agree to that. But if the woman was born with a Y chromosome and female genitalia, and she was married in the temple to a man before she discovered she was genetically male, would the church dissolve that marriage? I doubt that, also. Yet such a woman has a genetic defect, and if that defect were removed in the resurrection, this would be an instance of same-sex temple marriage.

If, on the other hand, a genetically male woman is able to "choose" her gender in the afterlife, then why cannot other people, such as the transgendered, make such a choice? So if temple marriages are really eternal so long as the participants are worthy, and so long as resurrection cures genetic defects, we are left with one of two mutually exclusive choices. Either:

(1) some people can alter their gender after the resurrection; or

(2) same-sex marriages exist in the Celestial Kingdom.

I am trying to follow your line of reasoning. This is getting into a lot of hypothetical possibilities.

My solution is that the woman’s Y chromosome would be corrected in the resurrection in order to coincide with her outward (or eternal) gender. Can you imagine a man’s dismay if his wife was changed into a man in the resurrection? He would be one unhappy camper!

As far as a “transgendered woman” who was born with a Y chromosome and male genitalia – they are still a man, as much as they might think otherwise. And they still have the option to not go through with gender reassignment surgery and to conform to their gender at birth.

The big difference in these two scenarios is that there is more choice involved in the latter.

The one thing I know is that the deliberate altering of a person’s natural gender is something that the Church considers a serious transgression.