LeSellers Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 Do they not have access before reaching the age of accountability? What if you have an 8 year that doesn't want to be baptized?"Full access to the Atonement" is a gift, as all (unaccountable) children are automatically saved in the kingdom of God (see my message above for the quote from Moroni). However, if we mean, as I believe calmoriah did, that the Atonement only takes effect when we are accountable for our sins, then, :"full access" comes through the ordinance of baptism.Because baptism is a voluntary act of obedience, any child who is unwilling to accept the ordinance should not be forced into it. Were he to do so, the baptism and its covenant would be in force, but the repentance process, an integral part of the ordinance would not have taken effect. No sins would be remitted (until repentance had happened), and, I believe, "the sin be upon the head of the parents". (Note: Not "the sins"—"the sin".)Lehi
Scott Lloyd Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 This may be arguing a fine point, but I don't know that little children are incapable of sin so much as they are incapable of accountability for sin. They are innocent not by nature but because Jesus Christ has decreed them so.Little children, like everyone else, are subject to the effects of the fall and mortality. 4
seriously honestly Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 Even were that not the case (and it is), an infant cannot "produce fruits meet for repentance", as the scripture commands.LehiAt what point is it that one is capable of committing sin? Is it as soons as they reach the age of accountability (8 years old)? After they are baptized when they are 8?
Scott Lloyd Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 At what point is it that one is capable of committing sin? Is it as soons as they reach the age of accountability (8 years old)? After they are baptized when they are 8?Please see my post just previous to yours. I believe its a matter of their not being held to account for sin until they reach age 8 years.
ksfisher Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 From what I understand around the age of 8 or 9 years old a child begins to be able to distinguish between a bad person and a bad action. Before this time they are not fully capable of understanding that someone who is fundamentally a good person is capable of committing an action that is not good. Being able to understand the seperation between the two is an important part of repentance and realizing our potential.
DispensatorMysteriorum Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) Please see my post just previous to yours. I believe its a matter of their not being held to account for sin until they reach age 8 years.And even then, the scriptures say they "begin" to become accountable at 8. I'm not sure an 8 year old is even held accountable for all their sins either.EDIT to add: For that matter, is anybody ever accountable for all their sins? Edited November 16, 2011 by DispensatorMysteriorum
ERayR Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 Do they not have access before reaching the age of accountability? What if you have an 8 year that doesn't want to be baptized?No it is the atonement that makes lack of accountability to age 8. IMNSHO if they are adamantly opposed to being baptised they shouldn't but the parents have some teaching left to do.
Freedom Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 The age has been set at 8 years. Everyone matures at different rates, and some never mature sufficiently to be capable of sin. The age had to be set somewhere so God made it 8. Everybody, as I understand the doctrine, requires baptism and the gift of the holy ghost in order to have their sins fully cleansed. This is one of the reasons we perform this ordinance in the temple. If the deceased only needed to be members of the church, I suspect that we would only perform baptism and not the laying on of hands. Also, we are only accountable for sins that we understand as being sins. If I refused to go to the temple with my understanding and testimony, I think this would be considered a sin. I know a person, however, who has a mental illness and the temple greatly agitates his condition for reasons that are too complicated and private to go into here. Regardless, he holds a temple recommend but will likely never go to the temple and I have no concern for his eternal welfare. I know another person who is so terrified of people that he cannot leave his home. He holds down a job and is in every way a faithful member of the church, but he has not set foot in a church for about 20 years. I don't know what his calling is right now (and I must admit that finding an engaging calling for someone with such a disability is challenging) but he is considered active. I believe he attends his meetings through video conference and is marked as present. I consider him active and faithful, but not accountable to having to attend church or serve in many of its callings. He is not ashamed of his condition and has spoken about it on many occasions in the media, acting as an advocate for people like him. My point is that only God can judge the intents of our hearts. He has set some ground rules down to ease the administration of this Church, but we need to relax a bit with the petty details and know that God is aware of our individual needs.
orion88 Posted November 17, 2011 Author Posted November 17, 2011 Thanks. I just like answering insincere questions like this because it makes said trap backfire, and that amuses me. You and Storm Rider share the same paranoia if you believe this question is a trap.
Maidservant Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 We have the opportunity to live our entire lives in the condition of being remitted from sin (and our sins).As an infant and young child, this remission is a free gift.Beginning at the age of 8 (officially), the ordinance of baptism and of the Sacrament and the attendant soul work (faith, repentance, Holy Ghost, etc) continue to maintain us in a justified condition in the plan of salvation and the atonement that has been made, from which we can progress further to a sanctified condition, and then further to an exalted condition.I repeat, we have the opportunity to live our entire lives in the condition of being remitted from sin (and our sins). It defines our relationship to sin . . . a knowledge that we are weak, but that we cannot be defined or bound by our sin or sins, but we are, or can become, free in life and in Christ. Each week when we partake of the Sacrament, we are saying we are willing, and we get to remain justified before God even though in mortality we cannot be justified by the laws we break, nor by the laws we keep. Even when we think we keep a law, there are higher laws we may not even know about, so we are always in a state of "breaking" and cannot be justified by the law. But keeping the law of baptism, and BECAUSE OF THE GRACE OF THE ATONEMENT, and remaining willing and having faith and repenting, signifies, that we are trying to live the laws we know as fast as we know them and can practice them, and this time of probation is a blessing.Baptism allows us to continue to be a child before God . . . to become as a little child, remitted from sin. It allows us to continue in the condition with which we entered this world. Thus baptism is not for a child to become like us, but for us to become like those infants.By the way, sin is anything that separates us from God. So we have a long journey to become completely clean. It's not just about doing bad things. A lot of us, including children of any age, don't spend a lot of time being bad. We just have weaknesses and struggles that we need the atonement for, and we are seeking for fuller and fuller revelation of God so that the veil no longer exists for us. Being remitted from sin is a breaking of the bands of death, of the chains of the adversary's captivity. It is our protection from the gates of hell that otherwise would surround us and subject us, in this mortal plane.
ERayR Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 We have the opportunity to live our entire lives in the condition of being remitted from sin (and our sins).As an infant and young child, this remission is a free gift.It is always a free gift it is just that untill 8 years old we are not required to recognize that fact, only enjoy it.
Maidservant Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 It is always a free gift it is just that untill 8 years old we are not required to recognize that fact, only enjoy it.You are right , I was thinking that even as I was typing it.
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