orion88 Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 Doctrine 68:27 says, "And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sinswhen eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands."What sins are in remission by baptism at the age of 8?Tony
volgadon Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 Reminds me of the reaction we got from a Seventh Day Adventist lady when we told her that we partake of the sacrament every Sunday."Every Sunday????? How do you manage to commit so many sins in a week?"
Popular Post LeSellers Posted November 16, 2011 Popular Post Posted November 16, 2011 What sins are in remission by baptism at the age of 8?All of them, including those committed seventy-eight years later. That's why we do not have to be baptized more than once (typically).Lehi 5
altersteve Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) Baptism is for the remission of every sin we ever have and ever will commit.And no, that doesn't mean we're saved by baptism. It means baptism is necessary for salvation, and yes, there is a difference. I like to use the analogy of a broken arm. When you break your arm, you need to get a cast if you want it to heal. That doesn't mean the cast itself is what heals your arm, but your arm still cannot be healed without it. Edited November 16, 2011 by altersteve 1
Storm Rider Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 Baptism is for the remission of every sin we ever have and ever will commit.And no, that doesn't mean we're saved by baptism. It means baptism is necessary for salvation, and yes, there is a difference. I like to use the analogy of a broken arm. When you break your arm, you need to get a cast if you want it to heal. That doesn't mean the cast itself is what heals your arm, but your arm still cannot be healed without it.Gosh, that is no fun. Orion had thought to lay such a good trap and....well...you didn't fall into it. No fun at all. I would feel better about these type of questions if I actually felt they served an honest search for truth. Regardless, you did a great job in answering it.
Log Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 All of them, including those committed seventy-eight years later.No.
altersteve Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 Gosh, that is no fun. Orion had thought to lay such a good trap and....well...you didn't fall into it. No fun at all.I would feel better about these type of questions if I actually felt they served an honest search for truth. Regardless, you did a great job in answering it.Thanks. I just like answering insincere questions like this because it makes said trap backfire, and that amuses me.
altersteve Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 No.Yes. Like all other covenants, the ones we make with God at baptism are eternal, and it is thus for the remission of every sin we commit, both before and after being baptized. That's why it's necessary for those baptismal covenants to be renewed through faith and repentance when we partake of the sacrament.
Log Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 Like all other covenants, the ones we make with God at baptism are eternal, and it is thus for the remission of every sin we commit, both before and after being baptized.If you research the word "remission" in the scriptures, as well as keep in mind that the soul that sins shall have all their old sins added to them again, you'll see a very much more interesting pattern emerge.The short answer is "no." Consider the following facts:A) Baptism is not necessary for the remission of sins.B) Baptism is not sufficient for the remission of sins.
kolipoki09 Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 Doctrine 68:27 says, "And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sinswhen eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands."What sins are in remission by baptism at the age of 8?TonyBaptism per se does not remit anyone's sins. Faith in Jesus Christ and His atonement coupled with repentance is what remits our sins. That being said, baptism as a rite is an outward expression of an inward commitment to follow Christ. It is the covenant whereby we take upon ourselves the name of Christ and become Xristianos. By entering into that covenant, we are thus held accountable. The age of eight is the age where children become accountable. But even eight-year-olds are capable of transgression and exhibiting basic understandings of right and wrong. Mormons choose to draw a line in the sand and say that eight is where children are capable of distinguishing good from evil. That is not to say that children can't know that before the age of eight, but eight is the age in which the formal covenant to take upon oneself the name of Christ is made. Even as a young child I knew when I had made a major mistake, partly because of intuition (what some might call the light of Christ) and because I'd been taught correct principles by my parents. I knew I had not kept certain commandments and was thus at odds with a lifestyle reflective of one who calls himself a follower of Christ. Before I was even eight years old, I knew what repentance was and had experienced it firsthand. That is not to say that my understanding of those tenets since that time has not increased, but the foundation was there 20+ years ago. Does that sufficiently answer your question?
altersteve Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 If you research the word "remission" in the scriptures, as well as keep in mind that the soul that sins shall have all their old sins added to them again, you'll see a very much more interesting pattern emerge.The short answer is "no." Consider the following facts:A) Baptism is not necessary for the remission of sins.B) Baptism is not sufficient for the remission of sins.I never claimed either of those two things.
Freedom Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 Baptism by immersion is the sign of the covenant, it symbolizes death of the old person and rebirth, or being born again, as a disciple of Christ. What comes next, the gift of the Holy Ghost, is what is important. This gift gives you access to the remission of sins, or the cleansing of the holy ghost. Without this gift, you cannot fully repent of your sins. The water does not wash away your sins, but rather, the holy ghost cleanses you of your sins. Baptism is a sign of your covenant, the gift of the holy ghost gives you the purification, or access to the purification. The notion that a person who has just been baptized is the purest person is false. They are no more pure or clean then before the baptism. 1
Log Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 I never claimed either of those two things.I never said you did.
altersteve Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 I never said you did.I'm just saying, how do either of those facts mean I'm wrong?
zerinus Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 Reminds me of the reaction we got from a Seventh Day Adventist lady when we told her that we partake of the sacrament every Sunday."Every Sunday????? How do you manage to commit so many sins in a week?"We don't partake of the Sacrament in order to obtain a remission of sins; we partake of the Sacrament in remembrance of Jesus, so we can always have His Spirit to be with us.
Storm Rider Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 Baptism per se does not remit anyone's sins. Faith in Jesus Christ and His atonement coupled with repentance is what remits our sins. That being said, baptism as a rite is an outward expression of an inward commitment to follow Christ. It is the covenant whereby we take upon ourselves the name of Christ and become Xristianos. By entering into that covenant, we are thus held accountable. The age of eight is the age where children become accountable. But even eight-year-olds are capable of transgression and exhibiting basic understandings of right and wrong. Mormons choose to draw a line in the sand and say that eight is where children are capable of distinguishing good from evil. That is not to say that children can't know that before the age of eight, but eight is the age in which the formal covenant to take upon oneself the name of Christ is made.Even as a young child I knew when I had made a major mistake, partly because of intuition (what some might call the light of Christ) and because I'd been taught correct principles by my parents. I knew I had not kept certain commandments and was thus at odds with a lifestyle reflective of one who calls himself a follower of Christ. Before I was even eight years old, I knew what repentance was and had experienced it firsthand. That is not to say that my understanding of those tenets since that time has not increased, but the foundation was there 20+ years ago.Does that sufficiently answer your question?That is not at all what the Bible says: baptize for the remission of sins. So do we just disregard scripture in order to align with one's personal views?
LeSellers Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 What sins are in remission by baptism at the age of 8?All of them, including those committed seventy-eight years later. That's why we do not have to be baptized more than once (typically).No [to the emphasized part].Rather a terse rejection. Einstein, I believe, said things should be as simple as necessary, but no simpler. Your response failed to clear that threshold.I have read your responses to others who take the scriptural position I do, so I won't ask you to explain further. However, as they have pointed out, yours is not the doctrinal stance of the Church.Baptism is a one-time event (absent excommunication). It is expressly for "the remission of sins". Our sins are washed away, as Peter explains in his first epistle, by baptism, and it "doth now also save us", in his words. Jesus tells us that baptism "fulfil[s] all righteousness". It is the gateway to the Kingdom of God wherein no unclean thing can enter. In Hebrews we read that our bodies are washed clean (I see this as baptism) and then we are sprinkled (which I take to be a reference to the Sacrament) to maintain our cleanliness.We have seen here that it is not baptism, per se, that cleanses us of sin, but our faith in Christ, or the blood of Christ that does so. This is only partly true. Baptism as as necessary to salvation as air is to life: necessary, but insufficient. We need water, food, clothing and shelter, too. Even so, baptism without faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ, is useless; baptism without the Atonement would be vanity; baptism without repentance is an empty gesture. But faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, His Atonement, and repentance would be fruitless without baptism, too.Lehi
Log Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) I'm just saying, how do either of those facts mean I'm wrong?I think posts #10 and #12 are sufficiently clear on the matter to answer both you and LeSellers. LeSellers, prove your position via the scriptures; don't just claim it's scriptural. Edited November 16, 2011 by Log
JAHS Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 "What sins are in remission by baptism at the age of 8?"Probably not very many sins at that age. But how can anyone really know at what point in time does a child become accountable for his actions? One second after midnight on the day he turns 8? I don't think so. Some don't get baptised until a month or more after they turn 8. At that age I look at it more as it was for Jesus who deffinately had no sins; that He did it to fulfill all righteousness.
seriously honestly Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 All of them, including those committed seventy-eight years later. That's why we do not have to be baptized more than once (typically).LehiIf that be the case then what is wrong with the idea of infant baptism?
LeSellers Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 If that be the case then what is wrong with the idea of infant baptism?9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children. 10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children. 11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.Even were that not the case (and it is), an infant cannot "produce fruits meet for repentance", as the scripture commands.Lehi
Freedom Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 That is not at all what the Bible says: baptize for the remission of sins. So do we just disregard scripture in order to align with one's personal views?Baptism is for the remission of sins, but that does not mean that it is what remits the sins. You need money to eat at the restaurant, but the money does not provide the food. It is the gateway to get the food. Baptism is needed to receive the remission of sins. This remission comes through the gift of the Holy Ghost, a gift you receive after baptism. Here is one article on the topic:http://lds.org/liahona/2006/08/the-gift-of-the-holy-ghost-what-every-member-should-know?lang=eng&query=baptism
Calm Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 If that be the case then what is wrong with the idea of infant baptism?Baptism is not solely for the purpose of setting things up so someone can have full access to the Atonement, it is also about expressing a personal desire for such a gift and a commitment to doing what one can to prepare oneself to receive it.Baptism is about establishing a mutual, ongoing relationship between God and the individual, not just about what God intends to do for her or her public demonstration about how she feels about God. 1
kolipoki09 Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) Baptism is for the remission of sins, but that does not mean that it is what remits the sins. You need money to eat at the restaurant, but the money does not provide the food. It is the gateway to get the food. Baptism is needed to receive the remission of sins. This remission comes through the gift of the Holy Ghost, a gift you receive after baptism.Here is one article on the topic:http://lds.org/liaho...g&query=baptism I was getting ready to respond to Storm Rider, but I see you've already done it.The rites themselves mean nothing if we don't have faith in Christ and His atonement. Once again, I never said baptism wasn't needed for salvation, I'm just saying that in a round about way, works without faith are dead.It is Christ who makes salvation possible. Because He was baptized, and because abundant references speak of baptism being one of the means by which we become partakers of divine grace, I too was baptized.The act itself does not remit the sin, but rather the faithfulness of the recipient of the act (i.e. submitting one's will to the Father, trusting in His Son's atonement).Just as a temple sealing is contingent upon the faithfulness of a married couple, so it is with baptism. If we are baptized and do not have faith and repent of our sins, we will in no wise enter the Kingdom of God. Edited November 16, 2011 by kolipoki09
seriously honestly Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 Baptism is not solely for the purpose of setting things up so someone can have full access to the Atonement,it is also about expressing a personal desire for such a gift and a commitment to doing what one can to prepare oneself to receive it.Baptism is about establishing a mutual, ongoing relationship between God and the individual, not just about what God intends to do for her or her public demonstration about how she feels about God.Do they not have access before reaching the age of accountability? What if you have an 8 year that doesn't want to be baptized?
Recommended Posts