Conference To Discuss Issues For Gay Mormons

[selek1]

You know none of that is doctrinal.

Ummm... who precisely are YOU to lecture us on what is and is not doctrinal?

And for the record, your special pleading above (in response to my post and those of others) is elegantly presented- but remains nothing more than a dodge.

As much as you attempt to paint religion (ours in particular) as the source of all the woes in the homosexual community, the behavior required for membership in the club has very real and very damaging consequences you seem desperate to avoid discussing.

[blackstrap]

CB ,since you decided to answer my question with a question instead of numbers,I will try to get some facts before the readers.

I hear so much about the homosexual male couple that fall in love and wish to remain together for life. The stats the I have read indicate that such a scenario happens in about 2% of cases. I'm sure you have better resources so please, give us the "truth" about such relationships.

On your other opinion,I suspect,without any documentation,that the homosexuals of the Netherlands,or even San Fran either do not care,or reject the idea that they are going to hell because of their behavior.Do you have any facts that relate to gays in general or perhaps gay Mormons specifically?

[Calm]

I know it freaks people out...etc..

Or not.

I grew up in the San Francisco area.

It is hardly an unusual concept that people can feel happy even when doing wrong. It is one of the primary motivations for giving into temptations after all....a belief that doing so will make them feel happier. And there are plenty of activities that are not so much wrong as just not maximizing goodness and potential that people prefer to making the extra effort and commitment and indeed sacrifice that may be required for exaltation. Considering the 'prize' it seems strange to me that so many seem to think that they need to do and give less than their all, including heart, mind and soul.

And the whole three kingdoms is built around the concept that people are happiest with different levels of commitment and alignment to God's will, IMO.

[california boy]

Ummm... who precisely are YOU to lecture us on what is and is not doctrinal?

And for the record, your special pleading above (in response to my post and those of others) is elegantly presented- but remains nothing more than a dodge.

As much as you attempt to paint religion (ours in particular) as the source of all the woes in the homosexual community, the behavior required for membership in the club has very real and very damaging consequences you seem desperate to avoid discussing.

Are you saying it is doctrine?? Because is all I have heard is a few statements from a few general authorities. There is one thing that I have learned from being on this site. Statements by general authorities are not doctrine. It thakes a consenses of the 12 apostles and first presidency for anything to be doctrine. As far as I know, that has not happened. This is not ment to be some lecture. Sorry you see it as that. If you beleive it is doctrine, please point me to the place where I can better inform myself of that. I would love to be corrected. If is is not doctrine, why did you make such a statement?

I never intended to convince you of anything. You obvioulsy can take or leave, what I say. I only post it for better understanding, not to convince anyone of anything.

[california boy]

CB ,since you decided to answer my question with a question instead of numbers,I will try to get some facts before the readers.

I hear so much about the homosexual male couple that fall in love and wish to remain together for life. The stats the I have read indicate that such a scenario happens in about 2% of cases. I'm sure you have better resources so please, give us the "truth" about such relationships.

On your other opinion,I suspect,without any documentation,that the homosexuals of the Netherlands,or even San Fran either do not care,or reject the idea that they are going to hell because of their behavior.Do you have any facts that relate to gays in general or perhaps gay Mormons specifically?

I have no idea what percentage of gay couples stay together. Is all I am saying is there is a reason for their choices.

Most gays that I talk to feel that christian churches have no idea really what God thinks or plans for them. They really are not worried about going to heaven or hell. They trust that God loves them and wants the best for them as much as all of his children. They don't feel shunned by God, only by most organized religion. Do I have any study or poll. No sorry. Never seen one. But I can say it is pretty much a universal attitude with slight variations whether they were Mormon or some other religion. In general gays believe less in dogma and rely more on the example of Christ on how to treat others.

I was talking to an ex mormon this afternoon. He is now active in the Presbyterian church, has a calling and contributes to their church community. He recently had surgery and the members brought over meals for him and his room mate. He also told me that he has two lesbian sisters. They ended up joining the Community of Christ (former RLDS). They evidently have an apostle whose specific calling is to work with gay members in the church. It works for his sisters.

I am not stating this to suggest in any way that the Mormon church should change the way they treat gays in the church. I am only giving this information so you can see how some other gays deal with their relationship with God. So some are able to embrace organized religion. Others choose to live outside of organized religion. But I do have to say, very few gays that I meet have abandoned their belief and hope in God.

Hope that helps.

[california boy]

Or not.

I grew up in the San Francisco area.

It is hardly an unusual concept that people can feel happy even when doing wrong. It is one of the primary motivations for giving into temptations after all....a belief that doing so will make them feel happier. And there are plenty of activities that are not so much wrong as just not maximizing goodness and potential that people prefer to making the extra effort and commitment and indeed sacrifice that may be required for exaltation. Considering the 'prize' it seems strange to me that so many seem to think that they need to do and give less than their all, including heart, mind and soul.

And the whole three kingdoms is built around the concept that people are happiest with different levels of commitment and alignment to God's will, IMO.

I completely agree with your statement. It is just for gays, the "prize" is not that desirable. I am sure I will be happy in whatever kingdom God feels I should belong. After all, isn't that kingdom where all the other cute gay guys are?

[TAO]

Erm... your honestly worried about... 'cuteness'? Cuteness?

In my experience, as you get to love someone, they become 'cute' =P.

That's why, tbh, I don't find either 'naturalistic' or 'relativistic' arguments to convincing, I suppose.

[california boy]

Erm... your honestly worried about... 'cuteness'? Cuteness?

In my experience, as you get to love someone, they become 'cute' =P.

That's why, tbh, I don't find either 'naturalistic' or 'relativistic' arguments to convincing, I suppose.

you do realize we are talking about cuteness in the next life right?

[Storm Rider]

Ummm... who precisely are YOU to lecture us on what is and is not doctrinal?

And for the record, your special pleading above (in response to my post and those of others) is elegantly presented- but remains nothing more than a dodge.

As much as you attempt to paint religion (ours in particular) as the source of all the woes in the homosexual community, the behavior required for membership in the club has very real and very damaging consequences you seem desperate to avoid discussing.

Well, DUH, he is gay and that means he KNOWS all the answers. He knows exactly what God thinks of this sexuality, his eternal state, and his unending homosexuality. It reminds me of an ostrich that has put his head in the sand and there is no way he will lift his head to see the light.

[thesometimesaint]

California Boy:

Unrepented of adultry will deny you the blessings of God. Homosexual acts are adultry, and that is doctrinal.

[TAO]

you do realize we are talking about cuteness in the next life right?

Doesn't matter... it's the same to me. 'Cuteness' is not a very good reason to 'like' somebody imho.

In addition, I think the celestial kingdom isn't about cuteness... or at least, I don't think you are going to be concerned about cuteness other than of your own wife.

[Sky]

You know none of that is doctrinal.

No I don’t know that.

I stand by my statements. I am confident that they are in line with what the LDS Church teaches. Nothing I said should have been earth-shattering to anybody who keeps up with what the General Authorities have to say about the subject. The statements of General Authorities carry much more weight with me than mere commentary.

I don’t have a source to point you towards, but perhaps you should do a little research of your own.

[california boy]

No I don’t know that.

I stand by my statements. I am confident that they are in line with what the LDS Church teaches. Nothing I said should have been earth-shattering to anybody who keeps up with what the General Authorities have to say about the subject. The statements of General Authorities carry much more weight with me than mere commentary.

I don’t have a source to point you towards, but perhaps you should do a little research of your own.

Well of course you can believe what you want. Is all I am saying is it is not official doctrine of the church. I am well aware a couple of general authorities have given their opinion expressing that hope. But when you think about ti, the idea of God passing a magical wand over us and making us substantially different than who we are goes counter to our whole concept of the plan of salvation. I am also aware that statements by individual apostles or prophets for that matter are not considered doctrine. I can give you a stream of examples, but you have been posting on this board, long enough to know what is considered doctrine in this church and what are just statements by general authorities.

Even statements by prophets that appear in manuals and are taught for decades may not be doctrine. An example of this is the couplet by Lorenzo Snow. As man is, God once was, As God is, man may become. According to Hinkley, that is not even doctrine. Just saying, it takes more than a few apostles to make something doctrine. Personally I have never seen an official statement by the church stating that gay people will magically be changed when they die if they are righteous. Perhaps you have more sure confirmation of doctrine that I am not aware of. Or perhaps you just want it to be doctrine, which is understandable.

[california boy]

Doesn't matter... it's the same to me. 'Cuteness' is not a very good reason to 'like' somebody imho.

In addition, I think the celestial kingdom isn't about cuteness... or at least, I don't think you are going to be concerned about cuteness other than of your own wife.

I was just kidding that cuteness is a factor in the afterlife. Sorry if you were misled in to thinking I was serious. I completely agree with you. I doubt few people other than a teenager would disagree with you.

[california boy]

California Boy:

Unrepented of adultry will deny you the blessings of God. Homosexual acts are adultry, and that is doctrinal.

I am quite aware of that is Mormon doctrine. Unfortunately that is not the doctrinal point we were discussing.

[cdowis]

You know there is no doctrinal support for your hope. No magic wand to make you straight after we die. Our nature in this life will rise with us in the next.

OK, if homosexuality is genetically based, then those genetic issues will go away with a perfected body. BUT if it an inclination, based on conscious choice, if it becomes part of our character, then it will stay with us into the next life.

Is it choice, or is it genetics. There are many genetically based traits which affect our behaviour and inclinations. Is homosexuality one of those? If so, then they will be purged at the resurrection, and we are left with our character based on our free will choices, dealing with those traits as best we can.

[california boy]

Well, DUH, he is gay and that means he KNOWS all the answers. He knows exactly what God thinks of this sexuality, his eternal state, and his unending homosexuality. It reminds me of an ostrich that has put his head in the sand and there is no way he will lift his head to see the light.

So I am wrong? Could you point me to the official Mormon doctrine that states if a gay person is faithful in this life, he will magically be transformed into being straight and want to spend eternity with a woman? I don't think ti matters if I am gay or straight, God has not ever made such a statement. I clearly stated that I DON"T know. fNorNor was I lecturing anyone on Mormon beliefs. Quite the opposite. I have asked multiple times for someone to point me to official Mormon doctrine on this issue. But hey, I guess it is easier to take a swipe at me being gay instead. Perfectly understandable. I am well aware some Mormons like doing that.

[california boy]

OK, if homosexuality is genetically based, then those genetic issues will go away with a perfected body. BUT if it an inclination, based on conscious choice, if it becomes part of our character, then it will stay with us into the next life. Is it choice, or is it genetics. There are many genetically based traits which affect our behaviour and inclinations. Is homosexuality one of those?

The church doesn't have a doctrinal stand on whether it is genetic or behavioral. So still no doctrine. But you bring up a good point.

[cdowis]

.

The church doesn't have a doctrinal stand on whether it is genetic or behavioral. So still no doctrine. But you bring up a good point.

But it answers your question. It is church doctrine, we are expected to live the principles of the gospel to the best of our abilities. There are women, who, for many reasons, have been unable to marry, but they choose to remain chaste.

[Sky]

I completely agree with your statement. It is just for gays, the "prize" is not that desirable. I am sure I will be happy in whatever kingdom God feels I should belong. After all, isn't that kingdom where all the other cute gay guys are?

It is doctrinal that the unrepentant will have to suffer the consequences for their sins (regardless of which sins they are).

Which kingdom we end up in is dependent on how we use our agency (the choices we make here).

Somehow I don't think the Telestial Kingdom will be a walk in the park with as many guilt-free gay sexual encounters as our heart desires.

People who end up in the Telestial Kingdom will wish they could have returned back into the presence of Heavenly Father in the Celestial Kingdom. But they chose not to. That is what will make it hell.

[frankenstein]

Ummm... who precisely are YOU to lecture us on what is and is not doctrinal?

Just so we are all clear your are in agreement with California boy that what sky posted is not doctrinal. Because if it was doctrinal, then surely you would show/prove that skys statements are doctrinal rather than issuing personal insults.

And while we are at who are you to assert that someone else can not know the doctrines of the lds church. Is lds.org a private website? Are lds teaching materials Only available to members of the lds church. Is someone who promotes ssm devoid of and completly incabable of knowing what is the lds church considers its doctrine to be.

So really, you either agree with CB or you incabale refuting his claim, which means you can only resort to insults.

[california boy]

.

But it answers your question. It is church doctrine, we are expected to live the principles of the gospel to the best of our abilities. There are women, who, for many reasons, have been unable to marry, but they choose to remain chaste.

I agree that it is church doctrine that if you want to reach the hightest degree of the celestial kingdom, you are expected to live the principles of the gospel to the best of our abilities. But like I have stated. That idea has no appeal to someone that is gay. Women that remain unmarried may very well still want to be married for eternity in the afterlife. There is a real reason why they choose to remain chase.

[Calm]

http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/50.16?lang=eng#15

Verses 15 and 35

Also John chapter 1: http://lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-jn/1.7?lang=eng#6

Scriptures teach we will be cleansed of all impurity and weaknesses by the blood of Christ.

Do you believe that those with a gambling addiction/attraction or drug addiction/attractionwhich they have struggled with to resist and overcome to live a faithful life will continue to have such feelings or inclinations when they are perfected?

[california boy]

Just so we are all clear your are in agreement with California boy that what sky posted is not doctrinal. Because if it was doctrinal, then surely you would show/prove that skys statements are doctrinal rather than issuing personal insults.

And while we are at who are you to assert that someone else can not know the doctrines of the lds church. Is lds.org a private website? Are lds teaching materials Only available to members of the lds church. Is someone who promotes ssm devoid of and completly incabable of knowing what is the lds church considers its doctrine to be.

So really, you either agree with CB or you incabale refuting his claim, which means you can only resort to insults.

He just wanted to insult me. I don't take it personally. I was active in the chruch for over 40 years. Taught seminary for years, gospel doctrine class, investigator class, been in the bishopric, served on the high counsel as well as every other calling I was asked to do. But even with my background in the church, my comments was not a lecture on Mormon doctrine. He just wanted to make an insulting gay remark. Like I said, I don't take it personally.

[california boy]

http://lds.org/scrip....16?lang=eng#15

Verses 15 and 35

Also John chapter 1: http://lds.org/scrip.../1.7?lang=eng#6

Scriptures teach we will be cleansed of all impurity and weaknesses by the blood of Christ.

Do you believe that those with a gambling addiction/attraction or drug addiction/attractionwhich they have struggled with to resist and overcome to live a faithful life will continue to have such feelings or inclinations when they are perfected?

Great scriptures. I am sure you look at being gay as being a weakness. Perhaps it is. But your interpretation of those scriptures as meaning that God will make gay men straight and love women for eternity is still speculation, not doctrine.

The church seems to really want to reach out to it's gay members. They are perfectly aware that a definitive doctrinal statement on this issue would clarify for gay members what will happen after we die, giving them the same kind of hope a single woman is offered. They choose not to make such a doctrinal statement. One can only assume it is because they don't know. Heck, they don't even know if being gay is genetic or behavioral. So at this point in church history, there is no official doctrinal statement on this issue. Only speculation and personal interputation and opinion of scriptural verses.