Conference To Discuss Issues For Gay Mormons

[Calm]

Also we are taught in the scriptures to pray to the Lord for deliverance from temptation and that the Lord will give us what we pray for in righteousness.

I am assuming you don't need a reference for that.

[Calm]

I look on anything that keeps us from choosing to fully align ourselves with God's will as a weakness, whether of our fallen nature or eternal one is irrelevant in regards to the Atonement for the scriptures teach that all things are possible with the Lord.

If we are arrogant enough to believe we know better than God what is our appropriate eternal destination, we commit IMO the sin of Satan who desired among other things to dictate to God how and what eternal life was to be for His children.

If we are prideful enough to believe we know ourselves better than the Lord so that for us his promises to deliver us from temptation will never be effective even in eternity, then it is hardly surprising when no deliverance actually occurs.

[Calm]

I think the scriptures and teachings of the prophets are more than explicit enough about the purification of the soul and the removal of all inclination to do other than the Lord's will by the Lord's grace that no more needs to be said, at least for those willing to listen to the idea that those things that might keep them from fully participating in the blessings of exaltation just might be viewed as weaknesses by the Lord if not by ourselves.

The idea that somehow one's own situation is so unique that special revelation is needed to deal with it is remarkably arrogant to me, but unfortunately one that is not all that uncommon in my experience.

Of course those decide that which keeps them from the full presence of the Lord is more important to them then being one with God will have the desire of their heart answered...at least to not walking with God.

[Sky]

I am sure you look at being gay as being a weakness.

Giving into sin is a weakness. A person's sexual orientation in and of itself is not a weakness.

But your interpretation of those scriptures as meaning that God will make gay men straight and love women for eternity is still speculation, not doctrine.

If you say so.

Did it ever occur to you that your interpretation is speculation - not doctrine?

I'll stick with the statements of General Authorities over yours to determine what is and what isn't doctrine. I trust that they know more than you do.

The church seems to really want to reach out to it's gay members. They are perfectly aware that a definitive doctrinal statement on this issue would clarify for gay members what will happen after we die, giving them the same kind of hope a single woman is offered. They choose not to make such a doctrinal statement. One can only assume it is because they don't know. Heck, they don't even know if being gay is genetic or behavioral. So at this point in church history, there is no official doctrinal statement on this issue. Only speculation and personal interputation and opinion of scriptural verses.

If that helps you to feel justified in your sins, then nothing I say can stop you.

But anybody who strives to keep the commandments should have hope.

1 Corinthians chapter 10, verse 13: “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

For more detailed information about the Chruch's position, here is an interview with Elder Oaks and Elder Wickman.

But you will simply dismiss it out of hand because, according to you, it's not doctrinal.

[california boy]

I look on anything that keeps us from choosing to fully align ourselves with God's will as a weakness, whether of our fallen nature or eternal one is irrelevant in regards to the Atonement for the scriptures teach that all things are possible with the Lord.

If we are arrogant enough to believe we know better than God what is our appropriate eternal destination, we commit IMO the sin of Satan who desired among other things to dictate to God how and what eternal life was to be for His children.

If we are prideful enough to believe we know ourselves better than the Lord so that for us his promises to deliver us from temptation will never be effective even in eternity, then it is hardly surprising when no deliverance actually occurs.

I completely agree with you. I don't know more than God what will happen to me when I die. And I am also clearly stating that either does the leadership of the church. I put my trust in God that He will do what is best for me. That is all anyone of us can hope for. And for me, that is good enough.

[LeSellers]

I am sure you look at being gay [sic] as being a weakness. Perhaps it is.

It is, just as, for instance, alcoholism is a weakness. It, too, has been claimed (falsely) to be a genetic trait, or to have some genetic component to it, just as homosexuality and same-sex attraction are ("God made him that way"). An alcoholic may be "dry", may deny himself the "pleasure" of drunkenness, but at least he doesn't resort to claims, parallel to those of homosexuals, that God cannot change him, and that, in heaven, he will still be alcoholic, and that, absent booze in the afterlife, he'll be in an eternal, tortuous hell.

And, just as there is no value in alcoholism, there is none in homosexuality. Both lead to disease, early death, and grave (literally) depression. Neither produces anything worthwhile. Both waste valuable human capital and potential. Either brings a mother's head down in horror and a father's in shame.

Just as an alcoholic would not wish his child to be alcoholic, no homosexual I can imagine would actively want his child (except an adopted son) to be homosexual. They're both dead ends.

Lehi

[california boy]

I think the scriptures and teachings of the prophets are more than explicit enough about the purification of the soul and the removal of all inclination to do other than the Lord's will by the Lord's grace that no more needs to be said, at least for those willing to listen to the idea that those things that might keep them from fully participating in the blessings of exaltation just might be viewed as weaknesses by the Lord if not by ourselves. The idea that somehow one's own situation is so unique that special revelation is needed to deal with it is remarkably arrogant to me, but unfortunately one that is not all that uncommon in my experience. Of course those decide that which keeps them from the full presence of the Lord is more important to them then being one with God will have the desire of their heart answered...at least to not walking with God.

Perhaps I have confused you a little. I am not asking for some personal special revelation. I am only stating that there is no Mormon doctrine on this issue, only speculation on what might or might not happen. I also think I have made it pretty clear that I have no desire to be in the presents of God and spend eternity with a woman creating spiritual children however that happens. I know there are no answers to the questions I ask. It is not the first time I have studied this issue out and pondered upon it.

This post has never been about me or my judgement or Gods plan for me. I only bring this up because it is the exact same situation every gay member of the church is in. For some, they are willing to live a lonely life without any companion to share this earth experience with in hopes that some magic wand will turn them straight in the next life. For others, they are comfortable being gay and feel God does not want them to be alone. (Genesis: "It is not good for man to be alone" etc.} Unfortunately for those that choose that evil path, there is no place for them in the church. Once again, I am clearly aware that I will not be in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. What none of this prevents me from doing is to try and be Christ-like to those around me. Not for any hope of eternal reward, but because it is the right thing to do. My spirit is drawn to doing acts of kindness and carrying for others even if I am gay.

[california boy]

For more detailed information about the Chruch's position, here is an interview with Elder Oaks and Elder Wickman. But you will simply dismiss it out of hand because, according to you, it's not doctrinal.

Of course I am very familiar with the interview you reference. Are you saying you think this interview with Elder Oaks and Elder Wickman is doctrine?

[california boy]

It is, just as, for instance, alcoholism is a weakness. It, too, has been claimed (falsely) to be a genetic trait, or to have some genetic component to it, just as homosexuality and same-sex attraction are ("God made him that way"). An alcoholic may be "dry", may deny himself the "pleasure" of drunkenness, but at least he doesn't resort to claims, parallel to those of homosexuals, that God cannot change him, and that, in heaven, he will still be alcoholic, and that, absent booze in the afterlife, he'll be in an eternal, tortuous hell. And, just as there is no value in alcoholism, there is none in homosexuality. Both lead to disease, early death, and grave (literally) depression. Neither produces anything worthwhile. Both waste valuable human capital and potential. Either brings a mother's head down in horror and a father's in shame. Just as an alcoholic would not wish his child to be alcoholic, no homosexual I can imagine would actively want his child (except an adopted son) to be homosexual. They're both dead ends. Lehi

If you like to think that being gay is the same as being an alcoholiic, then that is fine with me. I am puzzled however why no one wants his child to be gay UNLESS HE IS ADOPED?? Why would that make a difference?

[Calm]

I am not asking for some personal special revelation. I am only stating that there is no Mormon doctrine on this issue, only speculation on what might or might not happen

And I am stating I think there is more than enough doctrine out there from the teachings in the scriptures about final state of our temptations and purified natures through the Atonement, etc. that deals with temptations in a generic way while you are insisting that only specific revelation dealing with homosexuality on par with scripture will do; that you don't recognize it as doctrine does not make it not doctrinal. I am not talking about personal revelation, I am talking about being able to move from the general revelation in scripture to the specific temptation/inclination in personal life.

There are plenty of people in the same situation where all they have is the general revelation that God will heal all wounds, remove all temptations, etc for those that desire him to do so and trust in him enough to live according to the commandments. The difference, it would seem, is where that counsel is enough for them to trust in the Lord and have faith and act on that faith and those who insist they need to know more specifics about what is going to happen to them before they are willing to take the step of commitment or as you do, state that you are satisfied with what you anticipate but continue to point to the lack of specific revelation/doctrine as a hardship for others who have similar inclinations as you do who do want to align their will with the Lord.

[LeSellers]

If you like to think that being gay is the same as being an alcoholiic [sic], then that is fine with me.

I just pointed out the fact that homosexuality, like alcoholism, is (falsely) claimed to be a genetic trait (although twins, separated at birth, do not both exhibit same-sex attraction even in the infrequent cases where one does).

I am puzzled however why no one wants his child to be gay UNLESS HE IS ADOPED [sic]?? Why would that make a difference?

Just based on an article I read thirty years ago about how a homosexual should adopt a little boy and train him to the "father's" pleasure.

Lehi

[Sky]

Of course I am very familiar with the interview you reference. Are you saying you think this interview with Elder Oaks and Elder Wickman is doctrine?

I am saying to not dismiss this interview simply because it doesn’t meet your expectations of what constitutes official pronouncements of Church doctrine.

They are in a position of authority and are further explaining the Church’s position – and that should mean something.

Not every statement from a General Authority needs to begin with the words “Thus sayeth the Lord” or canonized in scripture in order to be considered doctrine. If that were true, you could throw out almost anything they say.

Most of the time the General Authorities confirm or further expound upon existing doctrine. That is what I see Elder Oaks and Elder Wickman doing in this interview.

[LeSellers]

If you like to think that being gay is the same as being an alcoholiic, then that is fine with me.

Do, is there any value to being homosexual? What does homosexuality contribute to humanity?

We breeders bring children, at the very least, who will pay the taxes to support your deathstyle and (assuming you live long enough, given the propensity to terminal disease among homosexuals) the antiSocial inSecurity benefits you receive.

How is homosexuality any different, in the sense we mean here, from alcoholism?

There's no difference as far as I can see.

Lehi

[Sky]

For others, they are comfortable being gay and feel God does not want them to be alone. (Genesis: "It is not good for man to be alone" etc.}

There's also that pesky little scripture in 1st Corinthians chapter 11, verse 11:

Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

Once again, I am clearly aware that I will not be in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom.

Do you realize the magnitude of what you just said? It’s concerning to see you so blithely declare such a thing. Do you really believe you will be happier spending an eternity in someplace else besides the Celestial Kingdom? It doesn’t have to be that way, California Boy. You can make it to the CK – but first you have to want it.

[frankenstein]

Do, is there any value to being homosexual? What does homosexuality contribute to humanity?

Lehi

I assume you are specifically referring to homosexual sexual acts and not asking what homosexuals as individual contribute to humanity. So here is my stab as what homosexual sexual acts contribute to humanity

Lower unwanted pregnancy rates.

Lower rates of abortion.

Lower rates of children born into poverty.

Economic growth/contribution via fighting the diseases that you and others claim is the result of homosexuality.

Economic growth/contribution via the materials created concerning alleged homosexual US President(s).

[in jest with stinging truth]Just given the first 3 three, those are goals that heterosexuality should seek to achieve. So the lower rates pregnancy and abortion provide motivation for heteros to improve themselfs. Pretty selfless of the homosexuals to do such a thing for the heteros wouldn't you say?[/in jest with stinging truth]

[thesometimesaint]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gay,_lesbian_or_bisexual_people

[california boy]

I just pointed out the fact that homosexuality, like alcoholism, is (falsely) claimed to be a genetic trait (although twins, separated at birth, do not both exhibit same-sex attraction even in the infrequent cases where one does).

I am sure it gives you great comfort to know exactly what causes someone to be homosexual when so many others including the general authorities to still be in the dark about how someone becomes gay.

Just based on an article I read thirty years ago about how a homosexual should adopt a little boy and train him to the "father's" pleasure.

Lehi

Currently in the news is a well publicized case where a straight married father of 2 biological children have been molesting boys for over 10 years. Are you saying that pedophiles don't molest their own biological children? Or are you saying that straight men molest other people's children but not their own? Are you saying that gay parents molest their own adopted children? What other kind of false generalizations are you willing to state to show us more your intolerable ignorance. I personally find this statement very offensive and sick. But perhaps it is something you as a Mormon feel is appropriate and a true statement.

[california boy]

There's also that pesky little scripture in 1st Corinthians chapter 11, verse 11:

What do you want to take from this scripture? Should I try to find a woman to marry in hopes that I will learn to like being straight? I was in a marriage for 30 years. It didn't work the first time.</div>

Do you realize the magnitude of what you just said? It’s concerning to see you so blithely declare such a thing. Do you really believe you will be happier spending an eternity in someplace else besides the Celestial Kingdom? It doesn’t have to be that way, California Boy. You can make it to the CK – but first you have to want it.:

Of course I am aware of the magnitude of my decision. There is nothing about being paired with a woman for eternity that interests me. Maybe all those straight couples creating worlds without number will need a good exterior designer to help out with the floral and fauna. Now that sounds way more exciting possibility for me. But thanks very much for your concern. I really feel your heart is in the right place in trying to help me. </p>

[Daniel2]

I just pointed out the fact that homosexuality, like alcoholism, is (falsely) claimed to be a genetic trait (although twins, separated at birth, do not both exhibit same-sex attraction even in the infrequent cases where one does).

Just based on an article I read thirty years ago about how a homosexual should adopt a little boy and train him to the "father's" pleasure.

Lehi

Do, is there any value to being homosexual? What does homosexuality contribute to humanity?

We breeders bring children, at the very least, who will pay the taxes to support your deathstyle and (assuming you live long enough, given the propensity to terminal disease among homosexuals) the antiSocial inSecurity benefits you receive.

How is homosexuality any different, in the sense we mean here, from alcoholism?

There's no difference as far as I can see.

Lehi

I certainly understand that most Latter-day Saints view homosexual behavior as sinful. Unlike California Boy, my interest in attempting to alter Mormons' religious convictions on that subject is waning, mostly because I simply have lost interest in trying to change those who are uninterested in being pursuaded otherwise, and no longer find myself emotionally-invested in or spiritually-confined by church-member's attitudes on the subject. In many respects, my life (and the lives of other gays and lesbians) and Mormons' lives will continue on their merry ways, never needing to meet on the subject, save for the specific issue of whether or not "marriage" is/should be a civil right that the government should recognize in cases where two same-sex partners wish to be civilly married.

That said, I'd wager that posts similar to those above (by LeSellers) probably don't reflect well on the LDS Faith and sound a lot less charitable than I think (and hope) most Latter-day Saints aspire to embody and exemplify.

My view,

Daniel2

[Pahoran]

I assume you are specifically referring to homosexual sexual acts and not asking what homosexuals as individual contribute to humanity. So here is my stab as what homosexual sexual acts contribute to humanity

Lower unwanted pregnancy rates.

Lower rates of abortion.

Lower rates of children born into poverty.

Economic growth/contribution via fighting the diseases that you and others claim is the result of homosexuality.

Economic growth/contribution via the materials created concerning alleged homosexual US President(s).

[in jest with stinging truth]Just given the first 3 three, those are goals that heterosexuality should seek to achieve. So the lower rates pregnancy and abortion provide motivation for heteros to improve themselfs. Pretty selfless of the homosexuals to do such a thing for the heteros wouldn't you say?[/in jest with stinging truth]

There are no children born into poverty in a morgue. There are no abortions taking place in cemeteries. There are no unwanted pregnancies happening in totally depopulated areas.

Kill off the human race, and those social problems disappear with them. The sexual abominations for which you agitate limit those problems to exactly the same extent that they hinder humanity's ability to thrive.

And that's the real "stinging truth."

Regards,

Pahoran

[Sky]

I certainly understand that most Latter-day Saints view homosexual behavior as sinful. Unlike California Boy, my interest in attempting to alter Mormons' religious convictions on that subject is waning, mostly because I simply have lost interest in trying to change those who are uninterested in being pursuaded otherwise, and no longer find myself emotionally-invested in or spiritually-confined by church-member's attitudes on the subject. In many respects, my life (and the lives of other gays and lesbians) and Mormons' lives will continue on their merry ways, never needing to meet on the subject, save for the specific issue of whether or not "marriage" is/should be a civil right that the government should recognize in cases where two same-sex partners wish to be civilly married.

This debate gets tiring for people on both sides of the fence, Daniel2. Your statement could just as easily be turned around into something like this:

I certainly understand that most GLBT advocates view homosexual behavior as harmless and that Latter-day Saints are misguided. My interest in attempting to alter the GLBT viewpoint on that subject is waning, mostly because I simply have lost interest in trying to change those who are uninterested in being persuaded otherwise, and no longer find myself emotionally-invested in or spiritually-confined by GLBT attitudes on the subject. In many respects, my life (and the lives of other Latter-day Saints) and the lives of gay men and women will continue on their merry ways, never needing to meet on the subject, save for the specific issue of whether or not "marriage" is/should be a civil right that the government should recognize in cases where two same-sex partners wish to be civilly married.

[california boy]

There are no children born into poverty in a morgue. There are no abortions taking place in cemeteries. There are no unwanted pregnancies happening in totally depopulated areas.

Kill off the human race, and those social problems disappear with them. The sexual abominations for which you agitate limit those problems to exactly the same extent that they hinder humanity's ability to thrive.

And that's the real "stinging truth."

Regards,

Pahoran

Just who are you hoping will all die?

[Ares]

If anyone has an interest in continuing theads on homosexuals and the LDS Church avoid demonizing homosexuals or Latter-day Saints. This applies to supporters and critics of either group.