Near Death Experiences And Their Efficacy Of Doctrine

[Vex]

What are peoples views on the doctrinal aspect of NDE's? Should one accept the common witnesses of these individuals or should we consider them on an individual basis with individuals purposefully misleading or lying about such experiences?

In otherwords based on your doctrinal purview; where do you hold NDE's in relation to revealed gospel principles and doctrines?

[Kevin Christensen]

I think of doctrine as a wine skin, and religious experience as the wine. You need both to enjoy either, but the wine is more important.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=2&num=1&id=16

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Freedom]

By near death experiences are you referring to people who were revived and reported seeing a light or some person?

[ERayR]

What are peoples views on the doctrinal aspect of NDE's? Should one accept the common witnesses of these individuals or should we consider them on an individual basis with individuals purposefully misleading or lying about such experiences?

In otherwords based on your doctrinal purview; where do you hold NDE's in relation to revealed gospel principles and doctrines?

Why should we automatically consider them lying?

[HeatherAnn]

What are peoples views on the doctrinal aspect of NDE's? Should one accept the common witnesses of these individuals or should we consider them on an individual basis with individuals purposefully misleading or lying about such experiences?

In otherwords based on your doctrinal purview; where do you hold NDE's in relation to revealed gospel principles and doctrines?

I believe that NDE's are personal, & yet there are some things in common with those I've read... like a peaceful feeling, guides, a light etc. Personally, I've been inspired & even comforted in reading some NDEs.

I don't think they're lying... but it may seem like they are, to someone who sees & experiences spirituality differently.

Similarly, chances are, if we told each other spiritual experiences, we may not relate as well with the others' experience, because we didn't resonate that exact way. "Truth is in perspectives. The more perspectives, the more truthful."

Many NDEs seem to reinforce LDS gospel doctrine, as explained in Glimpses beyond Death's Door, by Brent & Wendy Top.

However, some don't... it could be simply the frame of reference it's translated from (ie Hindusim etc.).

In that book mentioned (written by LDS authors), it's noted that none of the studied NDEs ever mentioned Jesus as being the guide. Also noted is that a majority of mental illnesses are rooted in gospel misunderstandings (IMO: shame/fear).

One thing I took from my friend's NDE is that there is no religion on the other side... it's all spirituality.

Edited October 30, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[Vex]

By near death experiences are you referring to people who were revived and reported seeing a light or some person?

The one and the same.

Why should we automatically consider them lying?

It has been my experience that individuals either consider them genuine or not-so-genuine and in it for the buck. I'm looking for the spectrum of responses from both LDS and non-LDS to see where everyone draws their conclusions from. For instance I have ran into an EV that believes that all NDE's are lying and in it for the buck to sell their books and so forth. He uses 2 Cornth. 12 to justify this purview.

[HeatherAnn]

...For instance I have ran into an EV that believes that all NDE's are lying and in it for the buck to sell their books and so forth. He uses 2 Cornth. 12 to justify this purview.

Hm... that chapter actually supports the possibility of "astral projection/spiritual travel."

"I knew a man in Christ above 14 years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: G od knowth;) such an one caught up to the 3rd heaven." - 2 Cor 12:2

No doubt there has been at least 1 person who's out to make a buck, but the majority of NDEs I've read were interviewed by others, & seemingly uninterested in profiting financially. There are, however, religious institutions that are in it for the buck & don't put the money to use as indicated to in the scriptures.

[cdowis]

I suppose that I could talk with someone who "visited" Atlanta, but he never left the airport. He would know very little about the city itself from the view of the airport.

Having read "Life After Life", etc, I feel these are airport experiences. Moody's later book, "Reflections on Life After Life" brings us closer to the real experience. His descriptions match what we read in the book of Alma, or, at least, give us insight into these verses.

[Mariner]

I don't see the near death experience as supporting any specific doctrinal or religious viewpoint. Near death experiences are reported in many cultures and are usually interpreted according to the background and religious beliefs of the person having the experience.

Reports of NDE experiences include vivid descriptions of hell as well as heaven. The fact that those who report experiencing hell are often Christians would mitigate against the involvement of a loving supernatural God in these experiences.

Given the number of common features associated with near death experiences, the number of physiological mechanisms known to contribute to such phenomena in the human brain, and the fact that these experiences are essentially universal, the best hypothesis is that these come about through natural physiological mechanisms as opposed to the supernatural.

[Questing Beast]

@Mariner: that sounds so reasonable, until you run into an NDE that asserts to know things by the experience that the physiological could not possibly be aware of....

[Mariner]

@Mariner: that sounds so reasonable, until you run into an NDE that asserts to know things by the experience that the physiological could not possibly be aware of....

I agree. So it is important to evaluate the claims of folks who report these kinds of NDEs to see if they can be verified. While I will admit that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to run controlled experiments on NDE events (nobody in their right mind would agree to be brought to the threshold of death to demonstrate that they could leave their body and return).

However, controlled experiments have been run with individuals who claim to be able to travel outside of their bodies (have an out of body experience or OBE, as described by Robert Monroe in his 1971 classic "Journeys Out of the Body").

To my knowledge, all controlled experiments to determine if actual information that could not have possibly been known to the OBE experiencer unless they were actually out of body have failed to prove that this ability exists.

For example, in one such experiment, a large digital display that would generate and randomly show a 5 digit number was located outside the room where the OBE subjects were located. Their task was to go out of body and return with the number they saw on the digital display in the next room. None were able to do this. In fact, I know of no controlled experiment wherein anyone was ever able to demonstrate thet they had, in fact, been able to obtain objective factual information from a remote location while out of body.

I once knew a woman who had worked with the US Government contractor on the Stargate project. She spoke of the frustration they experienced during the time that they believed that the Russians were running a successful "remote viewing" program while they could not seem to get remote viewing going in any meaningful way. As you know, the US eventually shut down the OBE-based remote viewing program for lack of useful intel (in spite of some spectacular claimed but unverified successes). In long conversations about this, she spoke of trying to "go remot"e herself with the help of one of the RV coaches and becoming terrified at the result. She believed from this experience that the claimed OBEs involved were real, but could not come up with any objective evidence to support her belief.

Bottom line: I remain unconvinced that remote viewing, or OBE, or NDE phenomena are any more than the result of self-delusion, self-induced hypnotic altered states, hallucinations, oxygen deprivation, release of endogenous opioids, or spontaneous electrical activity in the dying brain.

If you know of evidence to the contrary from controlled experiments, I would be more than happy to hear about it. It has been some time since I followed this area.

[Mariner]

I do not yet have edit privileges. The second sentence above should read:

I will admit that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to run controlled experiments on NDE events (nobody in their right mind would agree to be brought to the threshold of death to demonstrate that they could leave their body and return).

[Questing Beast]

I agree. So it is important to evaluate the claims of folks who report these kinds of NDEs to see if they can be verified. While I will admit that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to run controlled experiments on NDE events (nobody in their right mind would agree to be brought to the threshold of death to demonstrate that they could leave their body and return).

...

If you know of evidence to the contrary from controlled experiments, I would be more than happy to hear about it. It has been some time since I followed this area.

It would be impossible to set up a controlled situation. And by the time the people involved have announced their phenomenal experience, everyone has been contaminated and nothing can be determined. The first example to spring from my memory is from that book written about NDEs in children: blanking on the name of author and title, sorry: but there was one that sticks in my memory, about a comatose child that died and was revived at the hospital; meanwhile s/he traveled home, OBE-wise, miles away and watched and listened to what the family members were doing and saying, and later reported it in detail, and it matched with what had in fact been done and said. Of course, once any of this had been told to outsiders, the family members had contaminated the evidence by sharing each version of the event with each other....

[Vex]

(I am silently reading everyone position and find it quite enlightening. Please continue)

[cinepro]

Why do we consider NDE's any differently than we do regular dreams? Which is to say, unless they're shared in a Church-approved source from someone in authority, we only believe them if they reinforce what we already believe. If they go against our religious beliefs or worldview, then they are ignored.

[Kevin Christensen]

In my linked essay on "Nigh Unto Death: The Book of Mormon and NDE Research", I referred to Michael Sabom's Recollections of Death.

He asked thirty-two patients who claimed to have watched their resuscitation to describe the medical procedure involved. None made mistakes. Then he asked a control group of twenty-five "medically savvy" patients to describe the procedure. Twenty-three of the twenty-five made major mistakes.

People who have experienced NDEs have also experienced dreams, and they report that the differences are striking, as are the differences between hallucination and NDE.

More from my essay:

Nephi's answer anticipates Zaleski's grand question and her thoughtful answer about NDEs. Nephi tells his brothers that the symbols refer to both temporal and spiritual things (1 Nephi 15:32). Zaleski argues that NDEs are works of a socially conditioned religious imagination, but that the symbols participate in the reality that they represent. She treats them as "socially conditioned, imaginative, and yet nonetheless real and revelatory."⁴²

In Lehi's dream, everything is unashamedly symbolic. We accept his culturally specific symbols because we accept the source of the dream as divine, and the symbols as corresponding to reality. Far from discounting cultural influence in the revelations, Nephi insists that Isaiah, for example, cannot be understood properly without knowledge of Isaiah's Hebrew culture (2 Nephi 25:5). The Doctrine and Covenants and the Book of Mormon both claim that revelation comes to people "in their weakness, according to their language and understanding" (2 Nephi 31:3). Joseph Smith often taught that God adapted himself to our capacity to understand.⁴³ For example, during a 1909 NDE an American Catholic priest met his father "looking exactly as he had in the last few years of his life," wearing the "last suit of clothes he had owned."⁴⁴ Father Tucker wrote, "I knew that the clothes Father wore were assumed because they were familiar to me, so that I might feel no strangeness in seeing him, and that to some lesser extent, his appearance was assumed also."⁴⁵

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[ERMD]

In my 20 years of Emergency Medicine, I have revived and heard first-hand the accounts of 2 people and their near-death experiences.

Neither had motive to be fabricating their recollection of what had just happened to them.

[Mark Beesley]

Many NDEs seem to reinforce LDS gospel doctrine, as explained in Glimpses beyond Death's Door, by Brent & Wendy Top.

I recommend this book to anyone interested in the subject. Read it with an open mind an it just might give you pause to reconsider some entrenched ideas you might have about salvation in the afterlife.

[Mariner]

In my 20 years of Emergency Medicine, I have revived and heard first-hand the accounts of 2 people and their near-death experiences.

Neither had motive to be fabricating their recollection of what had just happened to them.

I don't see how anyone who has seriously considered the evidence can doubt that NDEs occur, so I don't see the issue of possible deception by NDE reporters as significant. The question is whether or not NDEs really constitute a glimpse of some afterlife.

Not surprisingly, those who believe that they do offer a glimpse of the afterlife tend to be those who believe in an afterlife and are interested in religion and mysticism. Those who do not tend to be materialists and scientists.

Normally a skeptic on such matters, my first response is that there is probably a physiological explanation for most reported NDEs. However, like UFO sightings, there seems to be small residue for which rational explanation appears difficult. When it comes to UFOs, the best hypothesis is that these objects do not represent life from outside our solar system, simply because of the distances involved.

When it comes to some NDE reports (such as a vivid, detailed and veridical descriptions of experiences reported by a flat-lined patient), I am not so quick to dismiss them as readily explained by aberrant neurophysiology (anoxia, reflex anoxic seizures, etc.) as we understand it today.

While I do not believe that the supernatural is involved, I try to keep an open mind about what science might yet learn from these interesting and ever more common phenomena.

[ERMD]

Believing in an afterlife and being a scientist are not mutually exclusive.

[KevinG]

Just be careful going towards the light...

[Mariner]

Believing in an afterlife and being a scientist are not mutually exclusive.

Agreed. However, I would guess that a much smaller proportion of scientists believe in an afterlife than those in most (if not all) other professions / occupations.

[Mariner]

Just be careful going towards the light...

Okay.

That was strangely appropriate.

[KevinG]

Okay.

That was strangely appropriate.

Thank you. Not everyone appreciates my strange sense of humor.

[ERayR]

Agreed. However, I would guess that a much smaller proportion of scientists believe in an afterlife than those in most (if not all) other professions / occupations.

Would you share some empirical evidence to back up this assertion.