Bill “Papa” Lee Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 I posted this elsewhere, so let me do so here for your consideration. AT&T Technician witnessing to me about Christ and Mormonism. This Wednesday a Technician came to our house to install a bundle package of phone, internet, and TV. While working on our computer he noticed a book I had on Mormons and Masons. He was very knowledgeable about the Bible, Masons and knew a little about Mormons. He asked in jest how many wives I had…my wife did not think it was funny. He was a gentleman in every way, he spoke of his belief in prayer, the Trinity and the Christian Faith (He was a Baptist as most are in Georgia). As the hours past (I was interested in what he was doing because I am an Electrician) we talked for a number of scripture and family. He spoke of his 20 year strained relationship with his father who abandoned his mother and children which he has finally forgave and reconciled with. His father who was a minister at the time and still is (he now attends his father’s church)??? He spoke of how the Lord led him out of a bad marriage; no adultery just could not get along. Then he spoke of the woman of his dreams and how much he loves his one year old, and that he was adopting his cousin’s baby who is hooked on drugs ( I shook his hand and told him how great that was, I am adopted and I adopted my oldest) I asked him how long they have been married? He replied “well we have only been together for 20 months, so we are not married yet”. I then asked him how he knew so much about Masons, he proudly told me he was one. I have known a number of people who have witnessed in this manor who live with their girl friends and have children with them. What am I missing here? I freely admit that I don't get this. Via the woman by the well, Christ considers all who are divorced without adultery as polygamy. Too add: A sin for which one can be forgiven for.
diglot Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 (edited) I think that Jesus taught the absolute indissolubility of marriage, regardless if one's spouse commits adultery.I think it is clear that Jesus' escape clause in Matt 19.9 is a Matthean redaction (which isn't found in any other logion on divorce in the synoptics).Regardless as to whether Jesus uttered such an escape clause, I think Jesus' other comments on marriage show that divorce for any reason (including adultery) is not what God wants, and divorce was only permitted due to the hardness of our hearts.Sorry if this was off-topic Edited October 25, 2011 by diglot
Questing Beast Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 Once one has confessed Christ Jesus, salvation is guaranteed. Actions have been absolved in saving grace. Of course, this allows anything: be it fornication, lying or even murder. That is why fundie evangelicals are among the scariest people on the planet.... 1
LeSellers Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 Once one has confessed Christ Jesus, salvation is guaranteed. Actions have been absolved in saving grace. Of course, this allows anything: be it fornication, lying or even murder. That is why fundie evangelicals are among the scariest people on the planet....The blind hog finds his truffle.Lehi
Vance Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 The math is a bit troubling.A 1 year old child (12 months + 9 months = 21 months) with a woman he has been with 20 months?Not that it changes much.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted October 25, 2011 Author Posted October 25, 2011 The math is a bit troubling.A 1 year old child (12 months + 9 months = 21 months) with a woman he has been with 20 months?Not that it changes much.And I teach math...embarrassing for me.
LeSellers Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 A 1 year old child (12 months + 9 months = 21 months) with a woman he has been with 20 months?Rounding error?Lehi
Saints Alive Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 it confounds me that evangelicals (or at least some of them) can be so strict on "what the bible says" in some instances, i.e. how they view scripture, the nature of God, salvation etc. yet so lax on cohabitation and premarital relations.
seriously honestly Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 Once one has confessed Christ Jesus, salvation is guaranteed. Actions have been absolved in saving grace. Of course, this allows anything: be it fornication, lying or even murder. That is why fundie evangelicals are among the scariest people on the planet....A gross misrepresentation. Although someone may think they can continue living their life with no change simply because they have confessed Christ, scripture states otherwise. 1
Questing Beast Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 I have met "religious" people in plenty who seem unfazed by general dishonesty, yet claim to be in the bosom of Christ Jesus because of a singular confession years ago....
seriously honestly Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 (edited) I have met "religious" people in plenty who seem unfazed by general dishonesty, yet claim to be in the bosom of Christ Jesus because of a singular confession years ago....I have know people like that too. Doesn't make them correct. Edited October 25, 2011 by seriously honestly
Rob Bowman Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 Saints Alive,You wrote:it confounds me that evangelicals (or at least some of them) can be so strict on "what the bible says" in some instances, i.e. how they view scripture, the nature of God, salvation etc. yet so lax on cohabitation and premarital relations.It confounds me that Mormons (or at least some of them) profess to view Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, yet will ignore, throw out, or twist things that he says that don't fit their present beliefs. So, neither Mormons nor evangelicals are always perfectly faithful to what they profess to believe. That's not a big surprise. Also, just as I would not assume that someone who grew up as a Mormon but isn't living the lifestyle is representative of Mormonism, you shouldn't assume that someone who grew up as a Baptist but isn't living the lifestyle is representative of evangelicalism.
BCSpace Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 (edited) It confounds me that Mormons (or at least some of them) profess to view Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, yet will ignore, throw out, or twist things that he says that don't fit their present beliefs.Do you believe that every word a Biblical prophet ever spoke in his life is recorded in the Bible? It sounds like you do. Do you believe that it's impossible for a true prophet to have an opinion that might not be true or God inspired? Most LDS I know don't accept that fundamentalist view and I think even the Bible could not pass that test.Joseph Smith himself gave the revelation (D&C 107) which equates in authority the First Presidency (the prophet and his counselors) and the quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Thus all 15 must agree before anything becomes doctrine. Edited October 25, 2011 by BCSpace
Saints Alive Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 (edited) Saints Alive,You wrote:It confounds me that Mormons (or at least some of them) profess to view Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, yet will ignore, throw out, or twist things that he says that don't fit their present beliefs. So, neither Mormons nor evangelicals are always perfectly faithful to what they profess to believe. That's not a big surprise. Also, just as I would not assume that someone who grew up as a Mormon but isn't living the lifestyle is representative of Mormonism, you shouldn't assume that someone who grew up as a Baptist but isn't living the lifestyle is representative of evangelicalism.Your argument is fallacious, Mormons don't profess to believe every word that came from Joseph Smith's mouth, evangelicals do profess to believe every word that comes from the Bible. Also, Mormons who don't live up to Mormon standards, like cohabitation, are the least likely to give you a hard time about drinking coffee or not believing that the BOM is another testament of Christ. Edited October 25, 2011 by Saints Alive
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted October 25, 2011 Author Posted October 25, 2011 Your argument is fallacious, Mormons don't profess to believe every word that came from Joseph Smith's mouth,Especially the words, that snakes are God's creatures and we should leave them alone. "The only good snake is a dead snake"!
Vance Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 Your argument is fallacious, . . .Yes it is fallacious, if nothing else it is a Tu Quoque.
jo1952 Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 The math is a bit troubling.A 1 year old child (12 months + 9 months = 21 months) with a woman he has been with 20 months?Not that it changes much.My granddaughter was born at 27 weeks gestation, that was back on Father's Day---yesterday her weigh-in weight at the doctor's was just under 9 lbs and she's about one month past her original due date, though she is four months old. Please don't just jump to conclusions.Regards,jo
jo1952 Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 (edited) I think Jesus has the correct response to the OP: Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.Regards,jo Edited October 26, 2011 by jo1952
Garden Girl Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 (edited) Saints Alive,You wrote:It confounds me that Mormons (or at least some of them) profess to view Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, yet will ignore, throw out, or twist things that he says that don't fit their present beliefs. So, neither Mormons nor evangelicals are always perfectly faithful to what they profess to believe. That's not a big surprise. Also, just as I would not assume that someone who grew up as a Mormon but isn't living the lifestyle is representative of Mormonism, you shouldn't assume that someone who grew up as a Baptist but isn't living the lifestyle is representative of evangelicalism.Sorry... misread quotes... post deleted... GG Edited October 26, 2011 by Garden Girl
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted October 26, 2011 Author Posted October 26, 2011 I think Jesus has the correct response to the OP: Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.Regards,joThank You...
ldsfaqs Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 It confounds me that Mormons (or at least some of them) profess to view Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, yet will ignore, throw out, or twist things that he says that don't fit their present beliefs. So, neither Mormons nor evangelicals are always perfectly faithful to what they profess to believe. That's not a big surprise. Also, just as I would not assume that someone who grew up as a Mormon but isn't living the lifestyle is representative of Mormonism, you shouldn't assume that someone who grew up as a Baptist but isn't living the lifestyle is representative of evangelicalism.Speak for yourself..... Your perversion and false interpretation of something Joseph said, and thus Mormons not regurgitating that perversion of YOURS is not mormons ignoring, twisting etc. his statements for current beliefs.There are no current beliefs within mormonism that are in conflict with ANYTHING Joseph taught that is/was actually doctrine.Anti-mormon claims that anything ever said by a mormon, including Joseph Smith also doesn't qualify as doctrine, never has, never will. You bear false witness.
Storm Rider Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Saints Alive, You wrote:It confounds me that Mormons (or at least some of them) profess to view Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, yet will ignore, throw out, or twist things that he says that don't fit their present beliefs. So, neither Mormons nor evangelicals are always perfectly faithful to what they profess to believe. That's not a big surprise. Also, just as I would not assume that someone who grew up as a Mormon but isn't living the lifestyle is representative of Mormonism, you shouldn't assume that someone who grew up as a Baptist but isn't living the lifestyle is representative of evangelicalism.In reading Rob's comment, i really do think I am uncomfortable with the entire thread. I know a lot of people who know Christ and still sin. A few of them have sinned in significant ways. Jesus expects us to be willing to follow him; he does not expect us to be perfect in obedience. Paul said the flesh is weak and it is. I agree that the best way to follow Jesus, to be his disciple and a LDS, is to emulate the example of our Master. However, just because we sin does not mean that we cannot bear witness to the joy, peace, and love of our Savior to others. Neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more. 1
jo1952 Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 (edited) Thank You...I love you, Pa Pa.jo Edited October 26, 2011 by jo1952
Nathair/|\ Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 In reading Rob's comment, i really do think I am uncomfortable with the entire thread. I know a lot of people who know Christ and still sin. A few of them have sinned in significant ways. Jesus expects us to be willing to follow him; he does not expect us to be perfect in obedience. Paul said the flesh is weak and it is.I agree that the best way to follow Jesus, to be his disciple and a LDS, is to emulate the example of our Master. However, just because we sin does not mean that we cannot bear witness to the joy, peace, and love of our Savior to others. Neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more.I think Pa Pa is not concerned so much with the fact that the guy is sinning, but that he seems to think his unchaste behavior is ok and not something to be left behind. He, of course, is free to correct me if I have misinterpreted him. I ran into a guy like that on my mission. The guy claimed it was perfectly acceptable for him to do what ever he wanted, no matter how vile, since he believed in Jesus. He also said I was going to hell since I believed that Joseph Smith was one of Christ's chosen prophets and Joseph was a polygamist.
diglot Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 I ran into a guy like that on my mission. The guy claimed it was perfectly acceptable for him to do what ever he wanted, no matter how vile, since he believed in Jesus. He also said I was going to hell since I believed that Joseph Smith was one of Christ's chosen prophets and Joseph was a polygamist. My Uncle, who was partly responsible for me first getting interested in theology, would use that same excuse. He would say, "we are under grace, not the law", as if it were some sort of excuse to do whatever he wanted. Thankfully, even at such a young age I saw through that antinomianism. 1
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