Other Than Finding Car Keys…What Exactly Is God Good For?

[Craig Paxton]

I do not believe there is a god, Mormon or otherwise. The very concept of a god who can actually intercede and change naturally occurring events in our life is, I believe, a construct of man’s desire that difficult naturally occurring random events can be altered by some imaginary higher power.

For the believer, irrespective of the outcome of some difficulty, sickness or challenge in someone’s life…god always wins. I believe that those events that believers credit god with resolving are merely the believer giving god credit for a result that would have been the end outcome with or without some imaginary god’s intersession. To say it nicely…Stuff happens….and the end result is the result that would have happen irrespective of some god’s intercession.

If this were not the case…why do both non-believers, dare I say atheist, and believers, Mormon and non-Mormon have an equal distribution of both good and bad outcomes to difficult events in their lives? If there was some god who actually interceded in the lives of his believers, who actually heard and answered prayers, responded to priesthood blessings…wouldn’t you expect the believers to have a better distribution of positive outcomes when tragedies occur then when tragedy occurs in an atheist’s life who doesn’t pray or use so-called priesthood power? But you don’t see a higher distribution of positive outcomes in real life at all. Tragedy, ill-health, birth defects, catastrophes are all equally distributed irrespective of the level of belief, church membership, priesthood blessing use or non-priesthood blessing use for that matter…in fact other than providing the believer some artificial spiritual support …there is no difference in positive or negative outcomes or the distribution of “Stuff” among either believers and non-believers….none, nadda, zilch, zero…no difference at all.

For the believer, if a sick family member responds to medical treatment, God healed them; if their health disintegrates despite medical treatment…God willed it and wanted to test them or needed them in heaven. The non-believer just accepts that “Stuff” happens…and some “Stuff” is just out of our human ability to control or influence.

If I find my lost car keys…it wasn’t because I was frantically looking absolutely everywhere…it was because I prayed to God and He lead me to them. If a premature baby is born with birth defects as a result of an early birth…was it really God’s will. If that same baby then succumbs to their birth defect and dies…was that what God desired? Or if the baby lives, should God get all the credit. If the baby lives but with major life altering consequences, was it God’s desire to test and challenged those parents…were they somehow lacking in something that God wanted to test them with….such as now having to care for a disabled child for the rest of their lives. I could never worship such a being who has the power to intercede and choses not to or who is completely random in His incerceding...ummm kind of like naturally occuring events.

No matter what the result, consequence, outcome or conclusion, either good or bad, God comes out on top and wins every freaking time.

Thanks God…but I don’t see how you impact our lives one way or the other…”Stuff Just Happens” I’m not going to blame you for the bad…and I’m sure as hell not going to give you credit for the good…Oh and next time some believing family member’s prayer goes unanswered once again…I’ll just comfort them by saying…well…maybe God was busy finding someone else’s car keys.

Edited October 21, 2011 by Craig Paxton

[thesometimesaint]

"sure as hell". Interesting choice of words.

To use your example of the sick family member. You don't know who it is a test for. It could have little to nothing to do with the sick family member, and everything to do with your actions towards them. We are responsible for our own actions.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I do not believe there is a god, Mormon or otherwise. The very concept of a god who can actually intercede and change naturally occurring events in our life is, I believe, a construct of man’s desire that difficult naturally occurring random events can be altered by some imaginary higher power.

For the believer, irrespective of the outcome of some difficulty, sickness or challenge in someone’s life…god always wins. I believe that those events that believers credit god with resolving are merely the believer giving god credit for a result that would have been the end outcome with or without some imaginary god’s intersession. To say it nicely…Stuff happens….and the end result is the result that would have happen irrespective of some god’s intercession.

If this were not the case…why do both non-believers, dare I say atheist, and believers, Mormon and non-Mormon have an equal distribution of both good and bad outcomes to difficult events in their lives? If there was some god who actually interceded in the lives of his believers, who actually heard and answered prayers, responded to priesthood blessings…wouldn’t you expect the believers to have a better distribution of positive outcomes when tragedies occur then when tragedy occurs in an atheist’s life who doesn’t pray or use so-called priesthood power? But you don’t see a higher distribution of positive outcomes in real life at all. Tragedy, ill-health, birth defects, catastrophes are all equally distributed irrespective of the level of belief, church membership, priesthood blessing use or non-priesthood blessing use for that matter…in fact other than providing the believer some artificial spiritual support …there is no difference in positive or negative outcomes or the distribution of “Stuff” among either believers and non-believers….none, nadda, zilch, zero…no difference at all.

For the believer, if a sick family member responds to medical treatment, God healed them; if their health disintegrates despite medical treatment…God willed it and wanted to test them or needed them in heaven. The non-believer just accepts that “Stuff” happens…and some “Stuff” is just out of our human ability to control or influence.

If I find my lost car keys…it wasn’t because I was frantically looking absolutely everywhere…it was because I prayed to God and He lead me to them. If a premature baby is born with birth defects as a result of an early birth…was it really God’s will. If that same baby then succumbs to their birth defect and dies…was that what God desired? Or if the baby lives, should God get all the credit. If the baby lives but with major life altering consequences, was it God’s desire to test and challenged those parents…were they somehow lacking in something that God wanted to test them with….such as now having to care for a disabled child for the rest of their lives. I could never worship such a being who has the power to intercede and choses not to or who is completely random in His incerceding...ummm kind of like naturally occuring events.

No matter what the result, consequence, outcome or conclusion, either good or bad, God comes out on top and wins every freaking time.

Thanks God…but I don’t see how you impact our lives one way or the other…”Stuff Just Happens” I’m not going to blame you for the bad…and I’m sure as hell not going to give you credit for the good…Oh and next time some believing family member’s prayer goes unanswered once again…I’ll just comfort them by saying…well…maybe God was busy finding someone else’s car keys.

Having a bad day? What is the point of the thread, are you trying to destroy the faith of others, seeking converts to your case; what?

Edited October 21, 2011 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[Zakuska]

On my Mission he helped me find lost money.

In the second to last month of my mission we had been given our checks via mail because the banks had went on strike. And they were having an issue in the whole mission so the Zone Leaders weren't able to deliver the checks by hand as they usually did. The problem is this was also a weekend. So here we are on the second day of the next month. Our bus pass was expired, so we were walking everywhere. We had an early morning appointment we had to go to and then we also needed to get to the bank and get the Checks cashed. So my companion and I prayed that we would have the strenght and the means to be able to get to the Discussion with a new investigator and then after be able to walk the 10 miles to the bank. For some reason when we left the house I was supper focused (or more like in a daze) and we started walking. Well... about half way there I took a wrong turn and walked half a block before I realized that we had taken a wrong turn. Then I snapped too... and as I turned... a 1000 Escudo (~$18.00 USD) bill caught my periferal vision that was stuck in the bottom of a bush. (Reminds me of Christs Money in the mouth of the fish miracle). It was enough to get one of us to the bank by bus which was in another town. So we decided that instead we would go ask a member if they could help us out. But the member lived quite a ways away too. So we got on an empty bus to get to the members house and as we sat down on the back row. There was a bunch of change that had fallen out of someones pocket laying on the seet of the bus. All in al it was the exact amount of change we needed to get both my companion and I to the Bank, get our check cashed. Then walk a short distance to pick up our new bus pass for the month.

I always looked at that as a miraculous answer to a humble prayer.

Edited October 21, 2011 by Zakuska

[mnn727]

If it's any consolation to you, I don't believe the supreme ruler of the universe helps people find lost key's either.

I believe God is the God of the big picture and has set things up to work, mankind is who has messed things up.

I really doubt God intervenes as much as people claim/believe He does.

Probably the last time God intervened was the 2004 World Series -- j/k

Edited October 21, 2011 by mnn727

[Craig Paxton]

On my Mission he helped me find lost money.

In the second to last month of my mission we had been given our checks via mail because the banks had went on strike. And they were having an issue in the whole mission so the Zone Leaders weren't able to deliver the checks by hand as they usually did. The problem is this was also a weekend. So here we are on the second day of the next month. Our bus pass was expired, so we were walking everywhere. We had an early morning appointment we had to go to and then we also needed to get to the bank and get the Checks cashed. So my companion and I prayed that we would have the strenght and the means to be able to get to the Discussion with a new investigator and then after be able to walk the 10 miles to the bank. For some reason when we left the house I was supper focused (or more like in a daze) and we started walking. Well... about half way there I took a wrong turn and walked half a block before I realized that we had taken a wrong turn. Then I snapped too... and as I turned... a 1000 Escudo (~$18.00 USD) bill caught my periferal vision that was stuck in the bottom of a bush. (Reminds me of Christs Money in the mouth of the fish miracle). It was enough to get one of us to the bank by bus which was in another town. So we decided that instead we would go ask a member if they could help us out. But the member lived quite a ways away too. So we got on an empty bus to get to the members house and as we sat down on the back row. There was a bunch of change that had fallen out of someones pocket laying on the seet of the bus. All in al it was the exact amount of change we needed to get both my companion and I to the Bank, get our check cashed. Then walk a short distance to pick up our new bus pass for the month.

I always looked at that as a miraculous answer to a humble prayer.

So tell me again...how exactly did God have anything to do with the random events that led you to finding money while on your mission in Portugal? Are you suggesting that God actually made you make a wrong turn? Did God cause the person who once had the money lose it with the fore-idea that you would soon be in need of it? did God cause the wind to blow in such a way that it would get stuck in that bush? Did God cause the person to choose that particular seat in the seat infront of you to place their money in such a position in their pocket so that once they sat down they would spill their money out on the floor for you to later discover it and yet he ignored the pleadings of the begger on the same street?

While I respect your faith...that is just an awful lot of domino's for God to set up in such a way that they would fall in that particular manner and for your particular prayer to be answered....while ignoring the need of the people who lost their money. Much easier to say that you were the benificiary of some random events that allowed you to find some lost money....

Edited October 21, 2011 by Craig Paxton

[cinepro]

The problem with evidence for or against god's actions is that most people don't have any sort of reference or baseline to compare against. All someone has to do is create faith-promoting explanations for both outcomes of a situation, and then they are assured that whatever happens, they have evidence for god. I suppose atheists can do the same thing in reverse; I have more experience with believers than atheists so I don't know for sure.

There's also the problem of how people can deal with a belief in something that isn't true. For example, I might have the firm belief that I can fly like a bird, but I would have to somehow reconcile that belief with my actual inability to do so. Likewise, people who believe in a false or non-existent god must somehow reconcile their belief with the fact that their "world" isn't much different from those who don't believe as they do. I suspect confirmation bias can also play a big role in such situations.

If I were to create a religion with a non-existent god (I would call him "Maximos"), but I wanted people to have faith in him, I would probably tell them that Maximos is responsible for all the good stuff in their lives, but that they can't expect any specific good thing to happen for them, and that bad stuff will happen to them as well because sometimes Maximos knows it's good for bad stuff to happen to people. As long as people worked really hard to remember the good stuff and give Maximos credit, I suspect I could get some pretty firm believers.

I would also tell them that they need to pray to Maximos "as if everything depended on him", and then live their lives "as if everything depended on them". Because, ya know, Maximos really couldn't do anything to help them out.

[jo1952]

When the sun shines, it shines on both believers and non-believers. When it rains, it rains on both believers and non-believers. Believers can't prove anything to the non-believer. Only the Holy Ghost has the power to do that. Until or unless you believe while in the flesh, that's just the way it is.

You've written a lot in your OP and unloaded a lot of stuff off your shoulders. I hope that this has had the cleansing effect upon your psyche that you were hoping for.

Is there a particular event or time in your life when something happened that caused you to begin feeling this way?

Love,

jo

[Zakuska]

So tell me again...how exactly did God have anything to do with the random events that led you to finding money while on your mission in Portugal? Are you suggesting that God actually made you make a wrong turn? Did God cause the person who once had the money lose it with the fore-idea that you would soon be in need of it? did God cause the wind to blow in such a way that it would get stuck in that bush? Did God cause the person to choose that particular seat in the seat infront of you to place their money in such a position in their pocket so that once they sat down they would spill their money out on the floor for you to later discover it and yet he ignored the pleadings of the begger on the same street?

While I respect your faith...that is just an awful lot of domino's for God to set up in such a way that they would fall in that particular manner and for your particular prayer to be answered....while ignoring the need of the people who lost their money. Much easier to say that you were the benificiary of some random events that allowed you to find some lost money....

You could pesemistically look at it that way yes. But how about this take?

All these random things happend, just like you said. Some one dropped some money and the wind blew it into the bush where it got stuck. Some one didn't notice when they got up from their seat on the bus that the change fell out of their pocket. However... me praying and putting myself in tune is a whole nother story and not so easily explained away.

I have seldom in my life had that Neo-like sensation where the camera stops and you step out side for a split second and see something so clearly. This was one of those times, when out of the corner of my eye... in the same moment I was realizing I had taken a wrong turn. And seeing that bill so clearly through periferal vision. I have no other way to explain that. Nor the burning bossom tingly feeling I got at the moment.

So go ahead and mock all you like. I guess that just teaches me the Lords pearls parable first had.

PS. Ironically Later that night when we were coming home we got stopped by a begger at the train station. I usuaully didn't pay them much mind but in that instance. Since I had been blessed earlier that day... I took the man to a coffee shop and bought him dinner.

Thanks for reminding me.,

Edited October 21, 2011 by Zakuska

[Deborah]

A natural explanation can be found for just about anything. But then I believe God works according to natural law, whether that is having the wind blow in the right direction or opening up eyes to see what one missed before. I've had too many supernatural or so-called "coincidental" experiences to discount divine intervention in answer to prayers.

I find it very sad that someone has such hostile feelings toward God and toward all things of faith. We don't always know why some are healed and some are not. I've certainly experienced both immediate healing and being told "in the Lord's own due time" which as it turns out won't be until the next life. But it is all about exercising faith and opening up oneself to understanding the Lord's will in one's life and growing from the experience no matter what the outcome. That is as much a part of the experience of prayer as having an actual decisive answer.

[jo1952]

You could pesemistically look at it that way yes. But how about this take?

All these random things happend, just like you said. Some one dropped some money and the wind blew it into the bush where it got stuck. Some one didn't notice when they got up from their seat on the bus that the change fell out of their pocket. However... me praying and putting myself in tune is a whole nother story and not so easily explained away.

I have seldom in my life had that Neo-like sensation where the camera stops and you step out side for a split second and see something so clearly. This was one of those times, when out of the corner of my eye... in the same moment I was realizing I had taken a wrong turn. And seeing that bill so clearly through periferal vision. I have no other way to explain that. Nor the burning bossom tingly feeling I got at the moment.

So go ahead a mock all you like. I guess that just teaches me the Lords pearls parable first had.

PS. Ironically Later that night when we were coming home we got stopped by a begger at the train station. I usuaully didn't pay them much mind but in that instance. Since I had been blessed earlier that day... I took the man to a coffee shop and bought him dinner.

Thanks for reminding me.,

That's a pretty awesome experience! The thought entered my head that when you saw the begger, that perhaps you had entertained an angel unawares; perhaps as a personal test in response to what had taken place earlier in the day.

Thank you for sharing such a personal moment.

Love,

jo

[Zakuska]

That's a pretty awesome experience! The thought entered my head that when you saw the begger, that perhaps you had entertained an angel unawares; perhaps as a personal test in response to what had taken place earlier in the day.

Thank you for sharing such a personal moment.

Love,

jo

That area of my mission was really intresting. It was my last area and the Lord taught me some very intresting lessons. You want to hear another one that happened there too?

[Duncan]

Well, I think that regardless of what trials and stuff happens because they happen to everyone and so if you are a believer then I think Christ will help you through them and tell you to stay clear of situations for problems you don't need.

[wenglund]

God gives me the strength to suffer certain fools lightly.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[jo1952]

That area of my mission was really intresting. It was my last area and the Lord taught me some very intresting lessons. You want to hear another one that happened there too?

Yes, please!!

jo

[Fly Fisherman]

I believe that God does intervene far more than we realize. And, God helping somebody to find lost keys is one of the most beautiful events that can happen - because it simply tells me that if God is interested in helping with something that seems so trivial, imagine how much more he is interested in helping with far more serious problems. Ok. I understand the skepticism that naturally comes with this. Atheists will often use this "God helping to find keys" example to make their point - why would God help somebody to find keys and ignore the prayer of the mother whose child is dying of starvation? Well, I am not convinced God ignores the prayer of a more serious problem. It is just that more serious problems, such as poverty, require more effort on our part - a world global effort for those kinds of problems, and we, the children of God, are falling very short in our part of solving these problems. Finding keys requires effort on our part, but far less than eliminating poverty. The phrase, while not scriptural, but indeed seems to be very true applies: "God helps those who help themselves." If I pray to find my keys, but do nothing to achieve it, that prayer will go unanswered. If we humans persist in our materialism and do little to help poverty, the prayer to eliminate poverty will appear to go unanswered. I am not convinced that God has not answered the prayer to eliminate poverty - He indeed has, as some of those prayers have gone answered, and people worldwide help. But He is waiting for us to do something more - a lot more, then He will do a lot more. The purpose of our existence is to become like Him - we cannot accomplish that if God does it all for us. As a consequence, when we don't do our part, bad things happen. Yes, bad things happen regardless, but that is part of the experience.

Instead of concluding that God doesn't answer prayers, and therefore conclude that He doesn't exist, I hope we can think differently and evaluate our assumptions.

[ERayR]

I do not believe there is a god, Mormon or otherwise. The very concept of a god who can actually intercede and change naturally occurring events in our life is, I believe, a construct of man’s desire that difficult naturally occurring random events can be altered by some imaginary higher power.

And so you come to a board like this for what? Why?

This is not a smart *** answer. I would really like to know why someone with that outlook would waste a moment bantering with what he perceives of as fools. Seems to me that from that frame of reference life really would be too short to waste in banter with the fools who are deluded.

Edited October 21, 2011 by ERayR

[Zakuska]

Yes, please!!

jo

This ones not so uplifting. But I did learn an invaluable lesson.

With about 6 month left in my mission I had left a suit case with stuff I no longer used and did not want to lug around but wanted to take home (ie gifts from friends and people I had baptized and gifts for family etc.) in a large suit case and left it at a members house who lived close to the mission home. That way when I left I could stop and get it. So on the second to the last P-Day I decided Id go pic up the suit case and get all my stuff packed and ready to go (Very trunky at the time).

So the Sunday before that we had set up a couple of appointments for that monday night. One with a member at the church house to teach a new member discussion and another with a new Investigator we had tracked out who we were going to show a video to and teach a 1st discussion.

So we went and got the suit case and got back a little latter than expected. Took the suit case to our appartment. But we were going to be late to our new member discussion. We got to the church about 10 minutes late. So we went in and waited for another 15 minutes. Well it was getting close to the time for our next discussion and I didn't want to be late and miss another appointment like we had apparently done. So we reluctantly decide to head off for the other appointment. However... the whole time I had a nagging feeling that we should have stayed.

Well when we got close to the next house I saw a woman standing across the street talking to a neighbor. I couldn't see her face but the spirit was telling me that was her and to go talk to her. I ignored the feeling again... proceeded into the building and we nocked on the door. She wasn't home. So I decide well lets go check the neighbor. We went where we had saw the lady. But she and the neighbor were gone. (Apparently she saw the two 19 year old American sore-thumbs going into her building and fled the scene) So I was kicking myself for not listening earlier.

So we decide to listen to the first nagging feeling I got and we headed back to the church. When we got there there was a note on the door from the member which appologized for being late and that he would talk to us later on in the week. I could have kicked my self again.

So we took the long walk back to the new investigators house and when we got there she was home but didn't have any time to talk so we had to mark another appointment, which we did and then never found her home again.

I'd ignored the prompting 3 different times and because of it the whole day fell through. I felt totaly abandoned and devoid of the spirit. Probably the worst day in my whole mission. But I learned an important lesson that day. It was a literal fufillment of D&C 9 for me.

Edited October 21, 2011 by Zakuska

[Calm]

Even if God does not intervene in our lives during mortality, is there any reason not to believe he'll intervene in the next as promised?

I believe that God probably intervenes in our lives the same amount whether one is a believer or not, after all are there not good people who do not believe and if so do they not deserve blessings? The difference is besides intervening, the believer who seeks out God has his presence with them and that can alter the internal experience in addition to the external interventions.

And the effect of this is demonstrated in my opinion through the studies that show overall, religious people....those who believe are generally healthier and happier than their fellow nonbelievers.

Edited October 21, 2011 by calmoriah

[Joshua M.]

Even if God does not intervene in our lives during mortality, is there any reason not to believe he'll intervene in the next as promised?

We are told numerous times by our leaders and scriptures that certain blessings are predicated on obedience/righteousness. I think some people could reasonably believe that if they are not getting the promised blessings here on earth for their righteousness/obedience, then why would things change in the next life?

[selek1]

And so you come to a board like this for what? Why?

This is not a smart *** answer. I would really like to know why someone with that outlook would waste a moment bantering with what he perceives of as fools. Seems to me that from that frame of reference life really would be too short to waste in banter with the fools who are deluded.

The answer is simple, Doc.

A tantrum is a tantrum is a tantrum.

Paxton's bearing of his "non-testimony" isn't meant to solicit discussion or elicit reason: his mind is made up.

This thread is nothing more than a stick-in-the-eye to the faithful, an attempt to get us to line up and bark on command so that he can feel better about himself.

It's no different than a small, cruel, child throwing rocks at the neighbor's dog....

...it's all about making Paxton feel better about himself rather than about learning anything or any kind of catharsis.

[selek1]

We are told numerous times by our leaders and scriptures that certain blessings are predicated on obedience/righteousness. I think some people could reasonably believe that if they are not getting the promised blessings here on earth for their righteousness/obedience, then why would things change in the next life?

Well said, Joshua- but as has been pointed out earlier (Bravo Zulu to Zakuska, BTW), that is the difference between a bitter, cynical worldview and one of faith.

The cynic demands signs and rewards for his obedience. His agreement to honor God and keep the commandments is down-right Pavlovian.

The believer, on the other hand, is both humble and trusting- accepting God's judgement and will as greater than his own.

The cynic demands that he be taught all the world's knowledge while standing on one foot, the penitent accepts wisdom as it comes...line upon line, precept on precept.

[Zakuska]

We are told numerous times by our leaders and scriptures that certain blessings are predicated on obedience/righteousness. I think some people could reasonably believe that if they are not getting the promised blessings here on earth for their righteousness/obedience, then why would things change in the next life?

Or perhaps they arn't recognizing the blessings that they already have received.

I consider it a blessing that I have a modest air conditioned home, an almost fuel efficient air conditioned car. and an Airconditioned cubicle to sit in every day. Some might look at that and not consider it as such (which is intresting because in this economy having a good paying Job should be considered a blessing) Its been my experience that these are usually the type of people who feel entitled.

[Sky]

It’s just a technical detail, but let’s not overlook the fact that God is actually three separate persons consisting of the Godhead – Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. They have different roles but are united in purpose. If in the instance that somebody had divine help in finding their car keys, I’m pretty sure it would have come from the influence of the Holy Ghost.

I don’t doubt that God is capable of helping somebody find their car keys if the need arises. After all, we are His children and He loves us. A lot also depends on us exercising faith. For example, if somebody desperately needs a priesthood blessing, the Holy Ghost might be more likely to help that Priesthood holder find their car keys in order to get to the person that needs the blessing.

However, I’m willing to concede that sometimes God might just choose to let things happen as they may. Somebody could find their car keys just by chance or never find them, and God chooses to just let it be. I would think loosing car keys would be a great test of patience for anybody. If a person has a problem with using profanity, losing their car keys would give them a great opportunity to practice refraining from using swear words.

[Zakuska]

Well said, Joshua- but as has been pointed out earlier (Bravo Zulu to Zakuska, BTW), that is the difference between a bitter, cynical worldview and one of faith.

It's funny too, because to this very day I still have dreams about that day. But instead I keep walking all over the place and keep finding millions of Dollars everywhere laying on the ground. Maybe its my subconcious mind peeking through and wanting to be a millionaire.

But Ill tell you something else... if the second comming happend to day and we all had to walk back to Missuori. I could do it in a second. Ive got to the point where I look at my house and all the stuff I have accumulated over the years. And sometimes I just want to take it all and just throw it in a big dumpster and walk away. You almost feel tied down by your stuff.

Edited October 22, 2011 by Zakuska