So What Does A Nephite Artifact Look Like?

[Zakuska]

So I was thinking about the Archeology question, and it dawned on me that we might want to go back to the OT of 600 BC and look at culture around Jeruslem at the time and try and figure out what exactly would a Nephite/Lamanite artifact look like. Or what cultural traditions might have been transplanted along with the various groups who journeyed to the Americas.

Two things that Immediatley came to my mind that I had not considered before were:

1) Ashera Idols - Yes the Lamanites and or Nephites could have had them, because we know the culture had them around 600BC and Nephi and his Ashera is intrinsic in the BOM Temple related naratives of Nephi.

From my limited study of various artifacts from the americas do indeed show us many examples of ashera like ceramics/wood and such in the same breast holding poses as the Asheras from the middle east.

Could that be a hit?

2) Temple of Solomon and animal Sacrifice practices.

Lev 9

9 And the sons of Aaron brought the blood unto him: and he dipped his finger in the blood, and put it upon the horns of the altar, and poured out the blood at the bottom of the altar:

10 But the fat, and the kidneys, and the caul above the liver of the sin offering, he burnt upon the altar; as the Lord commanded Moses.

If im not mistaken the Mayans and Olmecs also had similar Altar of Sacrifice practices where the blood was poured out at the base of the Altar in similar fashion.

Could it be another hit?

[thesometimesaint]

I don't know. Maybe an overstylized version of the Corn God: It is kinda hard to know what an ancient peoples artifacts meant to them without them telling us.

[cdowis]

I understand that animal sacrifice is uniquely a Hebrew custom. Has that been found in mesoamerica?

[Craig Paxton]

never mind....I've deleted my smarmy comment of what a Nephite/Lamanite artifact would look like...whats the point

Edited October 12, 2011 by Craig Paxton

[Jaybear]

Yeah, that a stumper.

Scientist have never been able to trace human migratory patterns throughout history without finding signs that say things like "Nephi was buried here."

[Zakuska]

I understand that animal sacrifice is uniquely a Hebrew custom. Has that been found in mesoamerica?

Quite a few examples actually... (Scroll down for the non-Human sacrifices)

http://gallery.sjsu....ecolumbian.html

I know one of the Concqistadores reported seeing large animal sacrifices (whole herds of sheep or cattle and roosters) at various native temples. I think one was Cortez at cuzco and the sun temple.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Zakuska

[Calm]

I understand that animal sacrifice is uniquely a Hebrew custom.

CFR please.....

[The Nehor]

I understand that animal sacrifice is uniquely a Hebrew custom.

Not true. Animal sacrifice has been found in Central African religions, some elements of Hinduism, Asian ancestor worship, and paganism in Europe. It is also practiced (albeit rarely) in some sects of Christianity and Islam.

[Doug the Hutt]

Hi Zak,

For the following statement of yours, can you provide both a reference and then simplify it for the least mostly-furless-bipedal-primate among us (that would be me)? Which lines do we have to read between in order to reveal Asherah in the Book of Mormon?

"...Nephi and his Ashera is intrinsic in the BOM Temple related naratives of Nephi".

[Zakuska]

Hi Zak,

For the following statement of yours, can you provide both a reference and then simplify it for the least mostly-furless-bipedal-primate among us (that would be me)? Which lines do we have to read between in order to reveal Asherah in the Book of Mormon?

"...Nephi and his Ashera is intrinsic in the BOM Temple related naratives of Nephi".

The paper to read is here: Its pretty straight forward but feel free to ask any questions and I can try and help you understand it... or perhaps the Donut Ruler of planet Mongo himself

http://maxwellinstit...=9&num=2&id=223

Basically, Nephi's vision of the tree of life the river of waters etc. and the Angels interpretation as Mary the Mother of Jesus and the Christ Child being born of her. Present the temple imagery explained by Nephi. As Margaret Barker tells us... the Imagery that Nephi presents in this vision is the Ancient temple Imagery of the Ashera found in 600BC Jewish Second Period temple worship, Prior to Josiahs cleansing of the temple and the burning of the Ashera Image that had been set up in the Temple at Jeruslem.

You can read about the cleansing of the Ashera Image from the temple here. In the KJV 'Ashera' is mistranslated as "grove".

2 Kings 23:4 NIV

The king ordered Hilkiah the high priest, the priests next in rank and the doorkeepers to remove from the temple of the LORD all the articles made for Baal and Asherah and all the starry hosts. He burned them outside Jerusalem in the fields of the Kidron Valley and took the ashes to Bethel.

Here are some Images of the Ashera they have found in Urigrit in Mesapotamia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah

Notice the similarities of these Ecudorian Fertility Goddeses.

http://miniaturesina...dessPF2896.html

Here is a thread that compares those found in the oldworld with those found in the new. *** WARNING: Some are pretty graphic ***

http://www.nissaba.n...p?t=64&start=50

Edited October 15, 2011 by Zakuska

[Zakuska]

Here is a whole list of Fertility Goddeses from all over the world that we can compair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertility_goddess

[shalamabobbi]

I'm not anti-LDS despite what Jo and Frank may think nor am I anti-Zak, but are you using creative dating again?

the Imagery that Nephi presents in this vision is the Ancient temple Imagery of the Ashera found in 600BC Jewish Second Period temple worship

Valdivian Fertility Goddess - PF.2896

Origin: Ecuador

Circa: 2500 BC to 1500 BC

[thesometimesaint]

shalamabobbi:

I think it would very much be dependent on what the objects meant to the Nephites. Alas, apart from finding a road sign that says "Zarahemla Next Five exits". Proving that the Nephites even existed is frought with problems.

[shalamabobbi]

shalamabobbi:

I think it would very much be dependent on what the objects meant to the Nephites. Alas, apart from finding a road sign that says "Zarahemla Next Five exits". Proving that the Nephites even existed is frought with problems.

Just trying to clarify what Zak is trying to state.

It would be one thing if these artifacts suddenly showed up shortly after 600BC in the new world.

I'm not sure that is the case Zak is trying to make.

[thesometimesaint]

I don't know. Would the icons of the Jews during their captivity in Babylon be much different than the Babylonians? Wouldn't be just the same but a different meaning attached

[shalamabobbi]

I don't know. Would the icons of the Jews during their captivity in Babylon be much different than the Babylonians? Wouldn't be just the same but a different meaning attached

Fine. That's not the point. The artifact referenced by Zak is circa 2500BC to 1500BC. I'm not sure the Nephites would have even discovered them as they would likely have been buried under their feet. If they found any of them and used them in a different context then they would have been redeposited in sites that would indicate a later date, no?

If all that is being said is the Jews appropriated this from the Babylonians and later this other figure from the Americas that existed long before the Babylonians what does that show? And what significance does such an argument have for proving anything at all?

Sorry not getting it I guess..

Edited October 15, 2011 by shalamabobbi

[Zakuska]

Fine. That's not the point. The artifact referenced by Zak is circa 2500BC to 1500BC. I'm not sure the Nephites would have even discovered them as they would likely have been buried under their feet. If they found any of them and used them in a different context then they would have been redeposited in sites that would indicate a later date, no?

If all that is being said is the Jews appropriated this from the Babylonians and later this other figure from the Americas that existed long before the Babylonians what does that show? And what significance does such an argument have for proving anything at all?

Sorry not getting it I guess..

Or did the Babylonians inherit it from somewhere else. (ie Noah) The early church Apostles did teach that Noah came from the Americas.

I did see the dates prior to posting this. My only question is in what contexts these images were found and how secure is the dating?

Edited October 15, 2011 by Zakuska

[Zakuska]

So after finding the similarities with the Ashera figurines, I have been studying up on the Valdivian culture from Chile, who thrived there from 12000bp and were conquered by the Spanish concistadors in 1543.

Pre-Hispanic times (12,000 B.P.-1543)

The area around Valdivia may have been populated since 12,000 – 11,800 B.C according to archaeological discoveries in Monte Verde[9] (less than 200 km south of Valdivia), which would place it about a thousand years before the Clovis culture in North America. This challenges the "Clovis First" model of Migration to the New World and it is possible that the first inhabitants of Valdivia and Chile travelled to America by watercraft and not across a land-bridge in the Bering Strait.

During at least the Middle Archaic southern Chile was populated by indigenous groups that shared a common lithic culture called the Chan-Chan Complex after the archaeological site of Chan-Chan located just some 35 km north of Valdivia along the coast.[10]

By the time of the arrival of the Spanish conquistadores, Valdivia was inhabited by Huilliches (Mapudungun for People of the South). Huilliches and Mapuches were both referred by the Spaniards as Araucanos. Their main language was a variant of Mapudungun, the Mapuche language.

There was a large village called Ainil in present day downtown Valdivia, and the Valdivia River was called Ainilebu. Ainil seemed to have been an important trade center due to its ease of access to the sea and the interior using the river network of the Cruces and Calle-Calle Rivers, both tributaries of the Valdivia. Ainil may be described as "a kind of little Venice" as it had large areas of wetlands and canals, most of them now drained or filled. The market in Ainil received shellfish and fish from the coast, legumes from Punucapa, and other foods from San José de la Mariquina, an agricultural zone north east of Valdivia.[11] A remnant of this ancient trade is the modern Feria Fluvial (English: Riverside Market) on the banks of Valdivia River. The surroundings of Valdivia were described as large plains having a large population that cultivated potatoes, maize, quinoa and legumes among other crops.[12] The population has been estimated by some historians as 30-40 thousand inhabitants as of 1548[13] based on descriptions made by the conquistadors. Pedro Mariño de Lobera, an early conquistador and chronicler wrote that there were half a million Indians living within ten leagues (one league is roughly 4.2 km) from the city.[12] Other historians consider these numbers too high and argue that early Spaniards usually exaggerated in their descriptions. Later Charles Darwin would state that "there is not much cleared land near Valdivia"[11] which suggests that pre-Hispanic agriculture in Valdivia was far more extensive than the agriculture practiced in the early 19th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valdivia

The real question is... when exactly were these Ashera style figurines introduced into their culture?

http://connect.in.co...a2b1de3a97.html

More Info figurine images.

http://connect.in.co...to-gallery.html

Hey... this is the place where the 9100bp cuvieronius (american elephant) is from!

9 ^ Dillehay, Tom, Monteverde: A late Pleistocene settlement in Chile (Smithsonian Institution Press, Washington, 1989)

Edited October 24, 2011 by Zakuska

[cryophil]

Excuse my interruption in this thread. I am unable to start a new thread for some reason.

Can someone please point me to a unified, single source list of archeological evidence supporting unique BoM claims? (That is, claims about BoM society that aren't common to most other world-wide societies of eras bygone.) I would imagine that such a list is available in clear and well delineated language for all to see.

Thank you.

[Calm]

Excuse my interruption in this thread. I am unable to start a new thread for some reason.

Can someone please point me to a unified, single source list of archeological evidence supporting unique BoM claims? (That is, claims about BoM society that aren't common to most other world-wide societies of eras bygone.) I would imagine that such a list is available in clear and well delineated language for all to see.

Thank you.

Cryophil, you will be able to start a thread in this forum with one more post, when you hit 25 posts.

[Jack]

The fact that over a thousand artifacts and evidences of Norse settlement of about 100 people in Greenland have been found and over 8,000 evidences of Native Americans in Yellowstone dating back a much longer time the fact that no identifiable Nephite Artifacts have been found is odd, to say the least.

Coming to a land preserved from all others just for them you would not expect to find Mayas, Aztecs or any other groups, would you?

[ERayR]

The fact that over a thousand artifacts and evidences of Norse settlement of about 100 people in Greenland have been found and over 8,000 evidences of Native Americans in Yellowstone dating back a much longer time the fact that no identifiable Nephite Artifacts have been found is odd, to say the least.

Coming to a land preserved from all others just for them you would not expect to find Mayas, Aztecs or any other groups, would you?

You would do well to read up a bit on this instead of regurgitating anti-mormon strawmen. Tell me how a Nephite artifact might differ from say a Mayan when the Nephites lived amongst them?

Stop and think and research before you answer instead of strutting and blowing your horn.

[Brant Gardner]

The fact that over a thousand artifacts and evidences of Norse settlement of about 100 people in Greenland have been found and over 8,000 evidences of Native Americans in Yellowstone dating back a much longer time the fact that no identifiable Nephite Artifacts have been found is odd, to say the least.

Coming to a land preserved from all others just for them you would not expect to find Mayas, Aztecs or any other groups, would you?

A different thread has cryophil making a very similar argument. Is someone posting this stuff and saying "hey, say this!"? Is anyone asking this question who actually cares about the answer?

[cinepro]

To the point of what a "Nephite" artifact might look like, this textbook from the "Book of Mormon Archaeology 101" class at BYU might be a start.

Edited October 27, 2011 by cinepro

[Duncan]

I would imagine only LDS scientists would be able to identify a Nephite artifact due to non LDS scientists probably not being too familiar, if at all, with the Book of Mormon.